Often picketed for great reasons. Though, before you rail at me, Brandon, I can understand the private thing. Unfortunately, decisions which impacted everybodies' lives were oft handshaked in these private chambers of good old white boys. I have mixed feelings on this, since I don't mind private assembly with private money, in concept.
Which brings up a book I'm reading, but ne'er mind, that's another thread.
In my not so long ago home town, the Carson Mansion, a key tourist attraction except that no one can go in it, was a Men's Club. Lotta decisions by the right people made there, I trust. Now I gather some women have been allowed as members.
Would that all those type clubs had equivalent voices from the hoi polloi.
On tiniest differences being sued about... and thus impacting chivalry -
could you expand on that?
Carson Mansion
Brandon9000 wrote:For almost 4 decades people have been sued who tried to make the tiniest distinction between men and women, private clubs for men have been picketed, and now you ask why chivalry is dead.
I had nothing to do with that, so don't take it out on me
Montana wrote:I hear ya, Osso and I wish I could remove this thread and start all over again, using different wording because no one seems to get what I'm saying, at all. <sigh>
No offence intended, Montana - but I think you might reconsider the difference between not understanding and not agreeing. I think there's a bunch of people here who understand perfectly what you're saying, but just look differently at it.
The things you describe, are to you just innocent gestures of elegance. But to other women they mean something different, carry different connotations. Are taken, for example, as a gesture that implies their expected dependence.
That they didnt agree with you, doesnt mean they didnt understand you.. they might just see the same thing differently.
Nimh,
I'm getting that now, but thanks for explaining :-D
Me, I'm in the middle.
On the one hand, especially in the abstract, I completely understand the implied message of power/dependence in the erstwhile acts of chivalry. He came to open the car door (for some reason this has become the standard example here) out of gentleness - but that wasnt the end of the story. If she had gotten out herself without waiting, he would have been offended. She wasnt supposed to do that. She was supposed to need him for it. There's an unpleasant subtext to that.
So, yes, I understand the reticences.
In daily life, though, I must admit, it can be bloody annoying.
For (random) example, when I take a girl out to dinner, I'll pay. Only if we're, like, familiar good friends, and the idea was kinda mutual, or hers, ok, the splitting of the bill might go self-evidently. But when it was me to propose going out, of course I'll pay. Goes without saying.
I cringe if, instead, it comes to splitting, or, much worse, calculating. OK, sure - there's been times when I was near skint, and my friend knew it, and she'd insist on paying a share, and that was nice. Its all kinda sensing, feeling out what the situation is. But to be ready to of course pay the bill, if hey it was me who came up with the idea of going out in the first place, and it being some big deal - eek.
To me its just about generosity - and, also, I think style expresses itself in the ability to receive generosity as well as to forward it. I mean, there's the "oh no, you shouldn't", but after that? Its like receiving compliments I guess - on that one, I'm the bad one. I find it hard to just smile and say, "thank you", rather than arguing that, no it wasnt so special what I did at all, or I'm not that good, or whatever. Thats ungracious of me, and its the same kinda with being treated I think.
Question of taste, I guess. When I see these couples, or even groups, in a restaurant or even a cafe, staring at the bill afterward and calculating exactly how much who has to pay - eeh! I mean, fer chrissakes, treat the other already, he or she'll return the generosity some other time. Or, in a group, at the very least just glance at the bill, divide it by the number of people, and roughly pay your gross share or a bit more. So perhaps you consumed a little less than the other, next time it'll be the other way round.
Anyway. So, I'm in the middle. I assume the woman can do pretty much anything I can - she's not dependent on me. I wouldnt want the classic division of roles. But I also dont understand, or am slightly irked by, people having a problem, or making a problem, of others' kind gestures. Like the body-builder woman someone described above, who felt invalidated, kinda, by a man offering to put the water container up? Its kind of sad, to me, when people feel threatened by other people's spontaneous acts of kindness or helpfulness..
Perhaps also, on another layer, because the "I dont want you to help me" attitude to me always somewhere evokes the logical, implied echo of "because I wouldnt want to be expected to help you either"..?
Rambling, sorry.
Yeah, that's about where I am too I think.
I'm conscious of continuing inequities that disadvantage men, too -- the assumption that men will make the first move, the assumption that men will pay. I mean, I can certainly see how someone would get annoyed if they "wine and dine" a woman and it turns out that she is completely uninterested. I've never been able to do that -- if I'm uninterested, I pay (unless it's some sort of "no, really" generosity sort of situation like nimh mentions and it would be just mean to press it).
I don't mind most anything that is done with true courtesy -- opening doors, helping me with packages, whatever. As others have said, I'd do it if I'm in that position, for anyone. The car-door thing is just silly, feels as antique as a giant pink finned Cadillac to me, it's just kinda huh...?
There are a lot of "romantic" things that feel similar to me -- just silly and saccharine.
We've hassled out the check stuff on another thread recently, but get your point, nimh.
No one likes to have their help shunned.
Still, picture me obeying Miss Hanbury all this time, walking on the inside. Well, maybe people from different melieus can, but I'd spazz.
The reason the car door kept coming up is that the female has to actively WAIT to be helped out of the car. I was taught to always do this, a generational thing I'm sure... and perhaps even a five year gap thing. My year was sort of on the cusp, in that the year I turned 25, Time magazine's man of the year was a twenty five year old person. And they were right, in that much changed around 1966. Of course, I was a woman, but ne'er mind.
What we all have in common in this talk is courtesy, gesture, romantic gesture to each other, excellent. Some of us don't want to be trapped in role rules throughout our days. I'd have been waiting in that car for fifty years, as Miss Hanbury probably taught my class once a week back in 1956.
For the younger of us, you barely know what I'm talking about, as that doesn't happen in your lives in the old way it did in mine.
Just think though that if I walk at my own speed to a door that it doesn't mean I want to cut anyone off at the knees. I am just a walking woman.
It also doesn't mean I don't want plain old courtesy or help.
No problem nimh and thanks for sharing your thoughts. We're on the same page, I think.
If the body builder woman smiled and thanked him for the offer, but said she could handle it no problem, I don't see anything wrong with that.
As a woman who does some body building myself, It's rare that I need help with anything.
When it comes to the work place, though, I can see where the woman was coming from as in my work place, the more you can do, the more you get paid.
For example: In another month or so, it's going to slow down at work and the assembly line on the night shift will no longer be running until it picks up again.
There are 3 of us on the line now, but one is a student and is leaving in 2 weeks, while the other (my team leader) will be going back days, which leaves me and since I know they have no intentions of laying me off, they'll most likely put me in the metal shop with all the men.
If I wasn't a very strong woman, they wouldn't even consider doing this because it's a dangerous job.
My point is that if I do end up in the metal shop, I get a pay increase, so being strong means more $ to pay my bills and it's not in my best interest to allow men to do stuff for me.
If I was not at work, though, I'd be happy to let them help me.
Did that make any sense?
ossobuco wrote:We've hassled out the check stuff on another thread recently, but get your point, nimh.
No one likes to have their help shunned.
Still, picture me obeying Miss Hanbury all this time, walking on the inside. Well, maybe people from different melieus can, but I'd spazz.
The reason the car door kept coming up is that the female has to actively WAIT to be helped out of the car. I was taught to always do this, a generational thing I'm sure... and perhaps even a five year gap thing. My year was sort of on the cusp, in that the year I turned 25, Time magazine's man of the year was a twenty five year old person. And they were right, in that much changed around 1966. Of course, I was a woman, but ne'er mind.
What we all have in common in this talk is courtesy, gesture, romantic gesture to each other, excellent. Some of us don't want to be trapped in role rules throughout our days. I'd have been waiting in that car for fifty years, as Miss Hanbury probably taught my class once a week back in 1956.
For the younger of us, you barely know what I'm talking about, as that doesn't happen in your lives in the old way it did in mine.
Just think though that if I walk at my own speed to a door that it doesn't mean I want to cut anyone off at the knees. I am just a walking woman.
It also doesn't mean I don't want plain old courtesy or help.
I'm glad you're not still waiting in the car. I've never had many guys open the car door for me, so that's a non-issue, but I love your stories.
As a person who absolutely hates waiting, I can see myself getting seriously annoyed with the car door thing before too long ;-)
Some great posts here. I haven't read them all; just skipped about a great deal, so I hope I'm not repeating EVERYone.
Montana, I think I know what you're talking about - it's more of a societal thing about good manners, really, than about gallantry, per se, between men and women. It's like I find it tough to get used to my little 5 yr old nieces calling me by my first name, sans "Aunt", whereas I grew up calling everyone Mr. and Mrs. Are the days of thank you notes over for good now? Can't remember the last time I got one, even though I still send them! Am I anachronistic? Probably!
I think women, of our era certainly, and I was born in the 1950s, have known both. Men who would pay for our dinner every night, without expecting a thing; and men who would expect sex the same evening after the same dinner. It's tough for all of us (men AND women) because our society is 'evolving' (progressing, whatever) at a faster rate than ever before that we don't even have to time to digest much less analyze the changes.
I love it when people are gallant to one another; someone helps me with a heavy water jug because I am petite and getting older and they're just thoughtful. Very kind of them. I hold open the door for others because I got there first. Very kind of me, I'm sure. I think that's just where we've gotten to and I like it.
I expect this gallantry or civility, if you will, from people my age and over, and am delighted to see it in younger generations.
Love Osso's line - I am just a walking woman... nice.
sozobe wrote:Yeah, that's about where I am too I think.
I'm conscious of continuing inequities that disadvantage men, too -- the assumption that men will make the first move, the assumption that men will pay. I mean, I can certainly see how someone would get annoyed if they "wine and dine" a woman and it turns out that she is completely uninterested. I've never been able to do that -- if I'm uninterested, I pay (unless it's some sort of "no, really" generosity sort of situation like nimh mentions and it would be just mean to press it).
I don't mind most anything that is done with true courtesy -- opening doors, helping me with packages, whatever. As others have said, I'd do it if I'm in that position, for anyone. The car-door thing is just silly, feels as antique as a giant pink finned Cadillac to me, it's just kinda huh...?
There are a lot of "romantic" things that feel similar to me -- just silly and saccharine.
i'm the same way when it comes to the guy paying my meal. If I'm interested in him, sure, but if I'm not, I don't think it would be right to let him pay.
I never go out with a guy I'm not interested in, so I don't run into that problem.
Hell, it's been a lot of years since a guy took me out to eat.
Yeh, general courtesies, gallantries if you will, are great.
Okay, now, to the mid east...
( I think it is the small connections that cement some sort of interstitial thing between neighbors... )
Mame wrote:Some great posts here. I haven't read them all; just skipped about a great deal, so I hope I'm not repeating EVERYone.
Montana, I think I know what you're talking about - it's more of a societal thing about good manners, really, than about gallantry, per se, between men and women. It's like I find it tough to get used to my little 5 yr old nieces calling me by my first name, sans "Aunt", whereas I grew up calling everyone Mr. and Mrs. Are the days of thank you notes over for good now? Can't remember the last time I got one, even though I still send them! Am I anachronistic? Probably!
I think women, of our era certainly, and I was born in the 1950s, have known both. Men who would pay for our dinner every night, without expecting a thing; and men who would expect sex the same evening after the same dinner. It's tough for all of us (men AND women) because our society is 'evolving' (progressing, whatever) at a faster rate than ever before that we don't even have to time to digest much less analyze the changes.
I love it when people are gallant to one another; someone helps me with a heavy water jug because I am petite and getting older and they're just thoughtful. Very kind of them. I hold open the door for others because I got there first. Very kind of me, I'm sure. I think that's just where we've gotten to and I like it.
I expect this gallantry or civility, if you will, from people my age and over, and am delighted to see it in younger generations.
Love Osso's line - I am just a walking woman... nice.
Thanks for your thoughts, Mame and I agree. I think I lost some folks for a while here because I was thinking more on the lines of romance other than chivalry, but maybe on the lines of both.
The assumption that men will make the first move, and that men will pay, and pay, and pay, is part of, er, the old order, to me.
Not that I mind being treated. And if I'm treated, I'm just pleased, no import from it. A bunch of us used to routinely treat, depending on who had cash, was flush, was in desolation row, or whatever. Within reason.
Some of the best meals of my life were treats, by friends with much larger incomes. But then I cooked at their houses for fun. It all evened out.
How has this thing about opening doors, especially car doors, become such a hot topic on this thread? I'm glad you said it's a non-issue for you, Montana, because it is a non-issue, period. If I'm driving and my passenger is a female companion, when I get out and I see that she's still sitting in her seat, I'll get the door for her, without rancour, without a second thought, because she's obviously expecting it. If she's out of her side of the car at the same time as I am, fine, no prob. Where is the issue? Same thing holds for other types of doors. If I'm there first, I'll hold the door for her (I'd do that for a man also if I'm the first one at the door; that's just common courtesy). If she reaches the door ahead of me and swings it open herself, again, what's the prob?
It's really more about a person's attitude than anything else. If you perceive a subtext in every little gesture, you'll soon feel threatened by someone saying "Good morning" to you.
Merry Andrew wrote:How has this thing about opening doors, especially car doors, become such a hot topic on this thread? I'm glad you said it's a non-issue for you, Montana, because it is a non-issue, period. If I'm driving and my passenger is a female companion, when I get out and I see that she's still sitting in her seat, I'll get the door for her, without rancour, without a second thought, because she's obviously expecting it. If she's out of her side of the car at the same time as I am, fine, no prob. Where is the issue? Same thing holds for other types of doors. If I'm there first, I'll hold the door for her (I'd do that for a man also if I'm the first one at the door; that's just common courtesy). If she reaches the door ahead of me and swings it open herself, again, what's the prob?
It's really more about a person's attitude than anything else. If you perceive a subtext in every little gesture, you'll soon feel threatened by someone saying "Good morning" to you.
This thread has headed in all different directions, but I was thinking more on the lines of how a guy treats a lady he is interested in getting involved with, which leads me back to thinking this should have been about romance, instead of chivalry.
ossobuco wrote:The assumption that men will make the first move, and that men will pay, and pay, and pay, is part of, er, the old order, to me.
Not that I mind being treated. And if I'm treated, I'm just pleased, no import from it. A bunch of us used to routinely treat, depending on who had cash, was flush, was in desolation row, or whatever. Within reason.
Some of the best meals of my life were treats, by friends with much larger incomes. But then I cooked at their houses for fun. It all evened out.
Personally, I would rather a guy I'm interested in pay the first time, if he was the one who asked me to go to dinner, but unless he makes very good $$$, I'm all for going dutch after that.
I can't afford to eat out much, so it's a good thing that the best things in relationships are free
Well, early on in this thread, Merry, Roger was quite insistent on opening the door, wrote - or the impression was that - no matter what Montana said, he would open the door. Roger and I are pals and have entered doors to shopping centers and fine hamburger joints together. I don't remember who opened which door. I'm arguing for argument's sake. (He may have a load of gripes...)
Not arguing with MA.
I suppose I'm still arguing with atavistic, heh. OK, I'll be quiet.
