Is Chivalry Really Dead? And Why?

Certainly not! At least, this old-fashioned girl doesn't think so!

I'm with you, Reyn. Opening doors is a matter of simple courtesy. I appreciate it when someone opens a door for me, and I often do it for others...of both sexes. But maybe that's a southern peculiarity? So be it.

I don't feel like any less of a person when a man acts courteously towards me. In fact, just the opposite. That is what courtesy is all about......making someone feel valued.

This has just gone on the "perfect sig line" thread.

I'm with you two (Eva & Reyn). You guys are right on in what I'm talking about :-D

I'm not just talking about what a man can do to make a woman feel valuable and special, but also the sweet little things we women can do to make them feel the same.
I was always one who loved making my man a special meal with the table set up with the candle light, wine, nice table cloth, wear something sexy, etc.
If I left the house before he awoke, I sometimes left a little note next to his pillow simply saying "I love you" or something else sweet to let them know how much I cared.
It works both ways, just so no one will think I'm one of those who expects things from men that I wouldn't do myself.

A lot of it is upbringing, I find.

I am not fond of chivalry of the sort that is formalized (the man opening a car door for the woman when the door is already unlocked, pulling a seat out for her at a restaurant, insisting on carrying things). It's tedious to me.

You know what...what bothers me most about this thread, and chivalry, is the whole idea of "women being like guys, and competing with men".
Women being like guys?! Obviously a woman who does traditionally male things is no less of a woman ...'being' like a guy? That's stupid.
What is wrong with competing with men?!
It's a good thing! We're equals! We do it all the time - for jobs, etc. We're lucky to live in a time where we have the freedom to do so openly.
This doesn't mean it is good to compete with a romantic interest just for the sake of it - though some competition can be flirty and get the juices flowing.
-that's my opinion...

The formalized chivalry sets up a situation that I dislike. But it's relative.
I once dated a man who came from a Filipino family and he pulled out chairs, offered to pay all the time, opening doors (and ran ahead to do it).
At first I was taken aback - it almost seemed like an insult (me thinking "does he want to be control of everything? Is he going to expect me to playdown myself so as not to step on his toes?").
But...after getting to know each other, I realized it was just how he grew up. It wasn't demeaning - it was how he expressed his affection for women. And he realized I came from the opposite side - respect and affection for women was shown by allowing them to stand side-by-side with a man. Acts of chivalry and courtesy, in my experience, had often been ways of men showing and exerting their leadership over women. Disrespectful.
And we worked it out.

So...it does come down to expectations and customs to a degree.
Chivalry is NOT dead.

So long as respect is there - it's all good.

I hear what you're saying flushd and I think too much of anything is a bad thing, but even though it would get annoying if a guy over does it, I am never insulted by it.
If I was with a guy that over did to the point of not letting me do anything for myself, I would talk with him about it and explain that I am an independant woman who likes to do most things for myself.
I'm just thinking on the lines of doing these things occationally to keep the spark alive.
Just enough to let eachother know that we're important to eachother.

I think I should have used another word other than chivalry, because it seems to have offended some women.

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I haven't tested out my feelings about the car door business in the night time (and where was the dog?) for decades, as it is reasonable for me with m'eyes to wait and be thankful for help -- if it is dark out, so I won't go splat on the pavement. If it is in a parking garage, I'll open it myself.

It's the waiting aspect that makes me cringe, the waiting to be helped because one is female, not because of actually needing the help as I do at night. So, I also am not keen on cutting down my pace on walking towards a door so that a guy can rush ahead and open it - or was I to be four steps behind at all times? It's a waiting dance I don't enjoy.
If a guy is there already and holds it, then that is plain old courtesy to me as a person and is fine.

This brings up the time about fifteen years ago that I was walking with a friend of a friend for several blocks. He was an older man. He kept herding me. A woman had to be protected from traffic even on the quiet residential streets we were walking. This for a woman who at that point walked or jogged miles around the city for exercise. The herding thing really annoyed me, physically annoyed me. I don't remember cutting him off at the knees about it, but we did discuss it. He was a clinical psychologist of some repute and was glad to talk about it, so we had some conversational grist for a bit. We'd had many conversations at various dinners before and weren't shy of each other.

Might be that to me the gallantry, as we're calling it, was too close to the edge of putdown, from my own past experience. The "you should be over here, dear" thing. I've mentioned that precious few women got into med school in 1962 before on a2k. In the majority of US schools, zero per class that year. Some others, one or two. As it happens, the early sixties were when old style gallantry was still very popular, though soon to undergo some discounting. So, for some of us... we may really connect unfairness, weakness in the work world, with the heavy laying on of gallantry. (Not to equate the early sixties with the medieval years.)


I still don't get the connection with sexual freedom/promiscuity mentioned before. Romance, courtly love? I don't think genuine romance, much less real love, has anything to do with herding and making people wait so they can get out of cars. I do think flowers are wonderful.

Perhaps the idea that every damsel is a virgin and needs to be in a bird cage does, though, so to that extent I can understand.

I hear ya, Osso and I wish I could remove this thread and start all over again, using different wording because no one seems to get what I'm saying, at all. <sigh>

Well, after re-reading all posts here, I can't say that no one understands what I'm saying, but I still don't think most of you realize that I'm talking about occational sweet gestures to show the person your with that you're extra special to them, that's all.

Eva and Reyn seem to know exactly where I was going with this thread, though. Phew!

Osso--

I remember the early '60's. The First Mr. Noddy was wont to proclaim, "Why should I give a woman a seat on the subway when she's after my job."

The early '60's were a time of forthright male chauvinism for paranoid, middle-class boys and men.

Montana, you treasure the sweet courtesies. You like romance. I treasure courtesies to each other and other people. I do treasure real romance, despite how some might ascribe my point of view. I think, for example, that detano understands. I think Merry did. I think the thread is useful.

Maybe one guy or two may read all this and think how he'd feel always walking on the inside of a sidewalk because, y'know, he should; or always sitting in a car waiting. I know you didn't say always, and emphasize the sometime aspect of the gestures.

But, Ms. Hanbury at the academy in the '50's did not train people like Noddy and me for some-time behavior..

There are generational differences here as well as gender, but they don't all line up in a proper grid!

Osso said:


Bingo! That's right on.
And a large percentage of us realize we have this idea, and it doesn't apply to every act of courtesy by males.
And though it's to less of a degree now (at least here), there are still chauvinistic men running some shows.

Montana, I get what you are saying. I guess it comes down to (me thinks) personal preferences about how affections and sweetness is shown.
You like those little gestures...nothing wrong with it! ...hope you find that guy!

Ya ever heard of the Big 5? Hmm, can't remember the name of the book, it's fairly new but the ideas in it are old, and it's kinda pop-pyschy. Anyways, it deals with how various people perceive affection and feeling loved.
*Acts of service
*Gifts
*Physical touch
*Quality time
*Affirmation

Most peeps enjoy combos, but people tend to react more strongly to certain ones. Like.....it doesn't really mean much to me when someone opens a door (it's nice, what else are you gonna do if you're there? slam it in my face?)....nor do I get much out of gifts (gee, flowers, thanks. little smile)....but if you schedule special time for me and give me a back rub when you could be waxing your car (gush, gush, melt).

Hope that makes some sense.

Gallantry is courtesy with a flourish--ostentatious delight in the flip side of the Battle of the Sexes.

I haven't read flush'd's post yet, but I want to add that I think GeorgeOb understood, if I read him right.

The new gallantry... or, gallantry re-described -- Noddy, you gotta write a book!

I guess you're right and more people may have understood than I thought. Noddy also understood, I think.

I'll hang in there with this one and see where it goes. Thanks Osso ;-)

Yes, it makes sense and I'm with you. I love flowers, but I don't want to be burried in them and I'm with you on the quality time.
My ex use to give me back rubs often after a long night at work and I did lots of the gush, gush, melting in those days.
Also, the car door thing is really a non issue with me. If they want to do it occationally, cool, but I really could care less if they ever did it.
I once knew a guy who threw his jacket over a puddle so I wouldn't get my shoes wet and I laughed my ass off

Anyway, I suppose this thread should have been about romance, instead of chivalry. Poor choice of words on my part.

I think so too. I guess I just got lost for a while there

For almost 4 decades people have been sued who tried to make the tiniest distinction between men and women, private clubs for men have been picketed, and now you ask why chivalry is dead.