Is Chivalry Really Dead? And Why?

Which is exactly why such acts are so rare. You really do get tired of being cut off at the knees for what are usually the same considerations we extend to other men.

roger wrote:

Phoenix32890 wrote:

I think that a lot of the acts of so called "gallantry" were really ways that men flunted their supposed superior position, although I don't think that the boys were conscious of the implications of what they were doing.

Which is exactly why such acts are so rare. You really do get tired of being cut off at the knees for what are usually the same considerations we extend to other men.

Rog- I think that it is a matter of empathy. If a 110 pound woman was struggling to carry a huge sack of pebbles, it would be a kindness to offer to assist. And vice versa. I have often helped both men and women when they apparently were having difficulty doing something.

What I am talking about is the guy who rushes to assist a woman in doing something that she is perfectly capable of doing herself, just to show how "gallant" he is.

Montana- I do not have the answer for you about men who wine and dine with the idea that his payment from the woman for the meal and show is to get laid. I would like to think that that sort of behavior when a male becomes an adult. Unfortunately, this is not so. I have heard stories about men, who in their senior citizenry, still "kiss and tell" like some pimply faced adolescent. Sad, really sad.

Sounds like you're saying that you like women who are weak and vulnerable. I was weak and vulnerable many years ago and because of it, I was abused, so I had to give up that part, but I don't sleep around and I don't act like a guy.
I don't compete with men, but am insulted when I'm told something is a mans job.
I've noticed a huge difference in todays generation of women and I have to agree with you that many of the young women of today are doing lots of sleeping around and are not very feminine.
If I was a guy, this would turn me right off, but I don't see it as being the womans fault.
There was a time, years ago when I use to date, when a guy would expect me to have sex with him after taking me to a fancy restaurant and when I declined, I'd never hear from him again, so did you ever think that maybe our young women of today are simply giving men what they want.
This is what a lot of men wanted and now that they have it, they don't like it.
I was just taking with a guy friend at work about this the other day and he was in agreement with me on this.

This is the same man who helped me with the box I was struggling with and I wonder if he's sincere or if he's just interested in getting me in the sack.
My past experiences with this make me wonder.

If someone wants to hold a building door for me, it's fine. If they don't, it's fine. In ordinary daily life, if I get there first I open it and hold it for the next person if there is one close behind. I don't usually dither until a guy gets there first.

I even have good door holding memories, in that a particular famous artist held the door for me as I was running across a plaza to get to a speech being given, he, knowing I was late and anxious to hear the talks, helped me get there.

I do notice differences in places.. when I was staying in Sacramento for a week, people always seemed to be holding doors for me, enough that I noticed the difference between where I lived, Eureka, and Sacramento. But Sacramento is a more formal situation, around the capitol building, which is where I was spending my time.
In Albuquerque, males do it fairly often, and I rather like it.

Opening the car door is a little forced/rote/noblesse oblige, to me, say on a Saturday morning going to, oh, a botanic garden. Going to a major dinner event with everyone all dressed to the nines, sure, the car door thing is appropriate to the formality of the occasion.

On the job, Montana, I would help you with an awkward load, just as you would help me. And, when we left, I would still hold the door.

Quote:

Which is exactly why such acts are so rare. You really do get tired of being cut off at the knees for what are usually the same considerations we extend to other men.

I'm old enough to be a shameless flirt when a gentleman offers me small courtesies whether he's honoring my sex or catering to my age and infirmities.

Today I had trouble maneuvering my walker, loaded with three bags of paperbacks, through the door of the second hand bookstore. A gentleman rushed over, held the door and towed the walker through.

I smiled and dimpled and announced, "Chivalry is not yet dead," and he beamed and bowed. The other bookstore patrons smiled, too.

I'll compliment other women on their dashing, gallant husbands--and I've seen women that I've complimented take a new look at their old, grey stallions.

Role playing is fun.

I think it all goes to the relationship you have with someone. I have done the chivalry thing for many girls, but some don't seem to want it. When I do a thing like open the door for my wife, she is probably pleased that I thought enough to do what I don't have to do for her. Still, she tells me she can do it herself, no need for me to walk around the car. So I sometimes open the door, sometimes don't.

Montana, being interested in you as a person and also being interested in getting you in the sack are not neceessarily two mutually exclusive things.

montana wrote:

Sounds like you're saying that you like women who are weak and vulnerable. I was weak and vulnerable many years ago and because of it, I was abused, so I had to give up that part, but I don't sleep around and I don't act like a guy.
I don't compete with men, but am insulted when I'm told something is a mans job.
I've noticed a huge difference in todays generation of women and I have to agree with you that many of the young women of today are doing lots of sleeping around and are not very feminine.
If I was a guy, this would turn me right off, but I don't see it as being the womans fault.
There was a time, years ago when I use to date, when a guy would expect me to have sex with him after taking me to a fancy restaurant and when I declined, I'd never hear from him again, so did you ever think that maybe our young women of today are simply giving men what they want.
This is what a lot of men wanted and now that they have it, they don't like it.
I was just taking with a guy friend at work about this the other day and he was in agreement with me on this.

This was posted by Montana on another thread. It gets to the core of this question. I believe the contradiction it highlights is at the core of human nature, and that resolving it (at least partly) is one element of the wisdom we all seek (and sometimes attain) in pursuit of a happy life. We tend to value highly things we don't have and create illusions about them. Other things that we posess, feeling secure in their posession, leave us with no illusions and we often undervalue them as a result.

Certainly the sexual pleasures of men and women and the sweetness of an affectionate relationship are things about which this observation is particularly true. It is common enough for men and women as well, to put a relationship, satisfying in both aspects (and more), at risk merely for the excitement and pleasure of someone or something new -- even though objectively it is no more (and often far less) than what they already have. Objectively this makes little sense, yet who has not done this?

I believe the question at hand is one that arises from the conflict between nostalga for the old conventions (not always observed even then) and desire for the new freedoms (not always available, even now). Both have their undesirable side effects that are rooted in the same human nature with its many inherent contradictions. A truly loving relationship involves overcoming at least some of these contradictions. In this sense love may well - at its essence - involve a degree of subordination one's natural desires to the needs of the other person - not doing what comes naturally, but instead doing what your partner needs. Such love involves an element of choice as well as emotion.

Montana wrote:

This is the same man who helped me with the box I was struggling with and I wonder if he's sincere or if he's just interested in getting me in the sack.
My past experiences with this make me wonder.

Yeah, and that's another reason to treat youse guys like, well guys.

Oddly, I strangely differentiate the business of sitting while a guy comes around and opens your car door for you and you sit there damsel-like - especially if it is, say, your husband, and you are going to the grocery store on a given sunny afternoon, and (especially while keys were used to open locks) a fellow unlocking your door first and holding it for you. But, there we go, if I am driving, and I do drive a car with out a lock opener thing, I would unlock the passenger door for anyone along with me... before I went to the driver's side and unlocked that, which happens to also open the passenger side. Just a guest-first sense of things.