Political Correctness: Make a Judgment

hamburger wrote:

i'm a little late joining in , but want to offer some personal experiences .
when we came to canada 50 years ago , one might occasionally hear that germans were referred to as 'krauts' or someone might say : "did you come from nazi germany ?' .
but since about the mid-sixties i have not heard that any more .

about five years ago there was a bit of a problem in the neighbourhood and the police interviewed a number of residents on our street .
when a young detective said to me : "i understand you are a german " ,
i gave him a bit of a - very polite - lecture and explained to him that i had been a canadian citizen for about forty years and that i was no longer a german - having had to give up my german citizenship upon coming a canadian .
i actually felt sorry for him when he started to apologize and turned rather red in his face .

to make a simple point :
certain terms may have been acceptable some time ago - they no longer are !
hbg

The thing is though, Nazi is what it is. and it means the same now as it did more than a half century ago. I can't remember a time when 'kraut' was not a term synonymnous with Nazi German soldiers or sympathizers by association. Ditto for "Jap" being synonymous with Japanese enemy fighters or sympathizers by association. It would not occur to me to apply such terms to German or Japanese people now because of the negative connotations they have ALWAYS had and the fact that neither Germany nor Japan are now enemies of the USA. Likewise Nigger has always been a demeaning and/or intentionally insulting term. Such terms have never had a social good side.

Because of a residual regional accent, I am frequently asked if I am a Texan. I just explain that I am Texan by birth but New Mexican by choice. I would think that would be a reasonable and less complicated response for Hamburger too: Yes I am German by birth but Canadian citizen by choice for some 40 years now. I think there is no serious bad side to being called either a Texan or a German. Smile

My Spanish, Mexican, and Italian relatives don't mind being referred to as Latino, Hispanic, Spanish, Mexican, Italian, ec. etc. when it is used in a friendly way as a description. All are quite thoroughly Americans but that does not mean they are not also proud of their ethnic roots. I'm such a mutt myself, I don't have any distinctively ethnic features, but if somebody should inquire if I were Irish, Scot, French, German, Austrian and/or British, all of which I can claim in my ancestry, I would freely admit my ancestral history while explaining that I am a born and bred American.

So the question remains as to how some descriptive words that once had no derogatory connotations and were socially acceptable by everybody back then came to be politically incorrect and socially unacceptanble now.

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mysteryman wrote:

Words by themselves are harmless.There are to many people that are looking for a reason to be offended by what someone else says.

Well, that might be.

Certainly I'm influenced by our legal system which knows since centuries the term "defamation". And since that's a crime which is "punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine, and, if the act was committed publicly, in a meeting or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine" [§ 187 StGB], I'm probably more sensitive here than you have to be.

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hamburger wrote:

i'm a little late joining in , but want to offer some personal experiences .
when we came to canada 50 years ago , one might occasionally hear that germans were referred to as 'krauts' or someone might say : "did you come from nazi germany ?' .
but since about the mid-sixties i have not heard that any more .

about five years ago there was a bit of a problem in the neighbourhood and the police interviewed a number of residents on our street .
when a young detective said to me : "i understand you are a german " ,
i gave him a bit of a - very polite - lecture and explained to him that i had been a canadian citizen for about forty years and that i was no longer a german - having had to give up my german citizenship upon coming a canadian .
i actually felt sorry for him when he started to apologize and turned rather red in his face .

to make a simple point :
certain terms may have been acceptable some time ago - they no longer are !
hbg

German is no longer acceptable?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
Words by themselves are harmless.There are to many people that are looking for a reason to be offended by what someone else says.

Well, that might be.

Certainly I'm influenced by our legal system which knows since centuries the term "defamation". And since that's a crime which is "punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine, and, if the act was committed publicly, in a meeting or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine" [§ 187 StGB], I'm probably more sensitive here than you have to be.

Do people still refer to others as Caucasian in Germany? Has this become descriptive of only those who are from the Caucuses? Can you still use it in that case?

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Lash wrote:

Do people still refer to others as Caucasian in Germany?

No.

Lash wrote:

Has this become descriptive of only those who are from the Caucuses?

Yes.

Lash wrote:

Can you still use it in that case?

Yes.

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This is frightening.

Walter--due to his government's laws--connects defamation and jail with the mention of the words Caucasian, Negro and Mongoloid.

I don't discount the veracity of what is being said--I just think of the quote someone here has. They (I guessed) use it as a tag line against Bush and the conservative movement. I see it more applicable to this conversation, paraphrasing:

The next fascist movement will be under the guise of anti-fascism.

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snood wrote:

No, but I'm guessing you see hypocrisy in my thinking there's nothing wrong with the NAACP or the UNCF keeping their names.

To be honest with you, there's always been a tiny little cringe in the back of my mind whenever I say thier names aloud, but I've also always been conscious of the difference between that, and say, saying something like "What's wrong with the Negros of today?"

Wouldn't you think if the word is ok in one context, it's ok is ALL contexts. So, then the problem isn't the word...?

The NAACP uses a descriptive word "Negro" in a context you don't disapprove. The sentence you used above is clearly a negative comment. "What's wrong with the..."

Wouldn't we be better served if we actually heard the content of what people were saying and responded to that, rather than shut down on words? Cause isn't it silly to say--"it's ok when he says it--but not when she does?"

Anyway--I thought the distinction was worth typing--but this is Trip #387387232 around this issue for us. It's not racial for me, but I understand how it bleeds that way for you.

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...and as time has gone on, I think I can see it a little better from your side, Lash. There may be hope.

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Lash wrote:

German is no longer acceptable?

Not when you're Canadian. At least that's my personal feeling, and response.

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lash wrote :

Quote:

German is no longer acceptable?

here is the way i see it :
i am a canadian and have been a canadian for forty years .
i'm not even a 'german-canadian' , and there are many other canadians that reject being 'hyphenated' canadians .
i can see no reason why i should not be a canadian ever since i took my oath of cirizenship - if i has wanted to remain a german , i certainly would not have become a canadian - exclusively .
unfortunately , new citizens are now being allowed to also keep their former citizenship . i think that's a big mistake ; citizens should not have devided loyalties .
we have several friends that have never become canadian citizens even though they have lived here for forty and more years - and i don't have a problem with that ; that's their choice .

but getting back to what started my point .
i can't see why a public servant - a detective - should presume that i am a german .
he knew my name , he knew where i lived . he really had no good reason to presume that i was 'a german' , since it had nothing to do with his inquiries .
perhaps i'm a little prickly when it comes to that - but i don't mind :wink: . it makes me feel good to be a canadian and hold a canadian passport .
hbg

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Foremost, I am happy that you are happy with your situation, hamburger. Very Happy

There is an undercurrent to your remarks, though, that makes me curious about your feelings about Germany or being referred to as a German...as though the reference in itself is taken as negative. But, don't feel compelled to elaborate if you don't want to.

I think I partially see your point --about why the detective would find it necessary to remark about your citizenship or country of origin (if it had no application to his inquiries)--I'm just trying to put myself in your place to try to figure out why it bothered you. I guess if I suspected the detective viewed my nationality or country of origin in a negative way...and his mention of it doubled as some indictment of my character. Then, I'd be furious.

I thank you for adding in. These subjects fascinate me.

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hi , lash !

Quote:

These subjects fascinate me.

i'm also quite interested in it - and the reason why i put my 2 c worth in .

we have a similar topic going under "deutsch anyone ?" .

what may have made me making some comments , were two news items i recently picked up .
both articles were trying to put labels on people for reasons unknown to me - and improperly imo .
and i think i was also being labelled for no good reason - certainly no reason was given .

one was on some american talkshow (don't remember which one) , were someone desribed the other person - a politician -- as 'black' .
the response was quite correct imo , namely : "i'm certainly not black , perhaps i am brown " . it was actually not a heated exchange or response ; the 'black/brown' person did laugh quite heartily .

the other item was a headline in a respectable german magazine (der spiegel - the mirror - it's probably the best known german magazine , a mix of time/fortune magazine , i'd say) .
the headline was about 'black' (schwarz in german)senator obama .
the magazine uses a lot of english expresions quite freely - even the article about senator obama used phrases such as : starstruck , cinderella story and others . i found it difficult to understand that they did not call him 'african-american' when they had no trouble using other english/american phrases in the same article .
was it just 'headline grabbing' ? i don't know .

so i wondered if other politicians/scientists of asian background would be called 'yellow' (gelb in german) - which was popularly applied to people from asia when i grew up in germany .

getting back to my telling the detective that i am a canadian .
i guess it was spur of the moment . i certainly didn't give it much thought - it just struck me as wrong being called german .
and as i said , i felt sorry for the young fellow - i don't think he meant any harm - and neither did i .
looking back now , it would have been possible to give him a long song and dance to explain my background - or perhaps i could have even given him a lecture .
the simple point was : my nationality had nothing to do with his inquiry - and perhaps that's what i should have told him .

i'm certainly not ashamed of having been born in germany -
i'm sure you have noticed that i even make a point of having come from "hamburg" and being a "hamburger" Very Happy

- but that's another story !

(just a footnote : when i grew up , people from hamburg often made sure that others understood that they were "hamburgers and NOT prussians " :wink: , but i can get along with pretty well with anyone - i hope age has taken off some of the rough edges and makes me smile a little more often).
take care !
hbg

hope this is an appropriate close for my entry :
bob dylan
------------
Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

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Lash wrote:

Do people still refer to others as Caucasian in Germany? Has this become descriptive of only those who are from the Caucuses? Can you still use it in that case?

Actually that term is* unkown in German.
Causasians are people from the Caucasus.

* Was*, would be better: now at least some know that it means what we call "white".

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Lash wrote:

Walter--due to his government's laws--connects defamation and jail with the mention of the words Caucasian, Negro and Mongoloid.

I actually don't get from where you learnt this.

Caucasian is someone from the Caucasus - nothing defamating. Actually, we have quite a lot of Caucasians living in our and around our town.

Mongolid is a vintage term for people with Dow syndrome as well as negro (the German equivalent) is a vintage term.
I don't think, either is thaught to be a defamtion. But you someone feels defamtated by this, he/she certainly should go to the court.

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Re hamburger's Hamburger<>Prussian remark:

I usually argue similar, namely that I'm from the (Cologne) dukedom of Westphalia :wink:

Such "race" really is interesting.

We still find press reports saying e.g. "a Russian-German was arrested".
(It seems, Russian-Germans only get in the news in police reports)
Which is totally nonsense - either that person is German or Russian.
(And mostly, they aren't even from Russia but from .... e.g. some Caucasian republics.)

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Re hamburger's Hamburger<>Prussian remark:

I usually argue similar, namely that I'm from the (Cologne) dukedom of Westphalia :wink:

Such "race" really is interesting.

We still find press reports saying e.g. "a Russian-German was arrested".
(It seems, Russian-Germans only get in the news in police reports)
Which is totally nonsense - either that person is German or Russian.
(And mostly, they aren't even from Russia but from .... e.g. some Caucasian republics.)

And therein lies the problem with political correctness.
You have seen similiar terms here,such as African-American or Mexica -American or Italian-American,etc.

Yet here those terms are not only acceptable,but expected.

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Though I don't think that Africa is a country ...

I suppose, we just adopted the US-style: racism through a "legal" backdoor.*

*That is because we don't divide people in races here - just that term "Russian-German"/"German-Russian" came up.

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Lash wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Words by themselves are harmless.There are to many people that are looking for a reason to be offended by what someone else says.

Well, that might be.

Certainly I'm influenced by our legal system which knows since centuries the term "defamation". And since that's a crime which is "punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine, and, if the act was committed publicly, in a meeting or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine" [§ 187 StGB], I'm probably more sensitive here than you have to be.

Do people still refer to others as Caucasian in Germany? Has this become descriptive of only those who are from the Caucuses? Can you still use it in that case?

My concern progressed from the exchange above, Walter. Mysteryman alluded to words that some people seem to choose to find offense in--and you directly stated that your fear of prosecution influenced your word choices.

I find that deeply distressing. There is no negative connotation intended toward you in my remarks (just to make sure you know.)

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Well, yes. When you (= humans) know since generations (that's a couple of hundred years) that some might find some words defamating and thus take you to court - well, many, I suppose, look a bit more careful at what and how they call someone.

Thus doesn't mean that the judge follows automatically one side or the other.

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Political Correctness: Make a Judgment

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