Political Correctness: Make a Judgment

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Can't you just feel the love?

Not when you post, no, never. Something closer to shingles or yeast infection.

McG's experience in his locale tells us why people might get upset with the term.

On the other hand, the experience of many others of us who grew up where the term did not have the same referents tell us why someone as sharp as Romney might use the term and have no idea of how some might hear it.

Clear bone to pick with lash here however on the "PC" thing, as if it were merely or even particularly a "liberal" failing.

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While I agree that PC in general afflicts conservatives as much as liberals, I think this offense-taking with words is specifically liberal. Off the top of your head, how many taboo-words for conservatives can you name?

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From my reasonable side...

I agree with folks who wouldn't take this term as racist. My first impression on hearing the term used as Mitt Romney used it is non-racial. I am certain that his intention was that he wanted to stay away from a very messy situation.

I also agree with folks who see this as a racist term that shouldn't be used by a politician in a public forum.

Furthermore I think Mitt's response was very appropriate. He immediately apologized for any offense and showed all of the sensitivity of a politician who didn't know that people would take offense. You can take this opinion seriously because I rarely compliment Mitt who overall I think is a depicable human being. I just don't fault him here.

I think this issue (as it relates to Romney) should go away.

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Interesting

I've never used the term tar baby...but as others have said, didn't see it as racist.

Actually, (I hope I say this right) as an adult when I learned what the real meaning of the Uncle Remus stories were, it made me admire the ingenuity of blacks in getting one over on the white folks.

Thinking about it, a tar baby is something to be admired. It stands by itself, bothering no one, and anyone foolish enough to loose his temper and mess with it will soon be forry he did.

Like a porcupine, but not as obvious.

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Thomas wrote:

While I agree that PC in general afflicts conservatives as much as liberals, I think this offense-taking with words is specifically liberal. Off the top of your head, how many taboo-words for conservatives can you name?

thomas

Yes, that language element seems to be a unique characteristic within much modern liberal thought and seems to have been coincident with the civil rights and feminist movements. The 'multicultural' or 'moral relativism' thing (which D'Souza and Bloom talk about) is something different.

It (language or terminology creates thinking/racism/sexism etc) isn't a notion I subscribe to. I had lots of animated conflicts with other students on this when I was at university. Though, certainly, language is a fundamental means by which such things are carried forward, and thus attention to the matter is justified.

Of course, the modern north american right has its own set of taboo speech acts involving religion, sexuality and political authority figues (Reagan, Bush most notably).

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This was a great success in my opinion. I feel very satisfied that, if nothing else, a fair hearing was given to both sides of the issue.

ebrown, Thomas, edgar-- everyone--

Thank you.

Following Thomas' observation and blatham's answer--

I do think, for the most part, the American liberal movement is (IMO) hyper concerned about words. There are some words I hate and will speak out about, when I am convinced they were intended to harm--but IMO the "liberals" take it to a ridiculous extreme. There are words (I feel are) much more harmless than tarbaby, which will set off a huge indignant media frenzy.

I do think an arm of the liberal movement uses it for nothing more than a club to bash conservatives. Sometimes rightly, sometimes deceptively.

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Hmm, tuning in late.

I am edging left of liberal by self-description, much of the time, though not all.

I don't care about pc. I prefer, though, not to needlessly offend.

I'm older than sin, so I saw the Song of the South when it came out. I have a faint memory that I liked it. Also have a faint memory, some time later, of talk that there was some racism going on with it. Was that a Disney movie? Did they (or whoever) make up Brer Rabbit out of whole cloth, or was it an early Disney digestion of folklore? I don't know that I care what Webster says. Just wondering about the history of the tales.

Well, I'm sure I've read sometime in my past that tarbaby was a word for, what did you say, Lash, don't remember, but about a problem that is a sticky wicket. But my instincts, not because I'm liberal, but because I've lived in a very multiracial/ethnic place, are that if I used it in conversation it could be taken as a slur. In its sticky wicket, whatever, definition, I'm fine with it. In the context Romney (I've always thought it was Milt, not Mitt) used it, makes sense. His backing up makes sense too, re offense. Maybe that's because he's a politician, or maybe it's because he's thoughtful re slurs. I know people don't like him, but I don't know enough myself to judge on that question.

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osso...here's the Wikipedia link on....Uncle Remus

Growing up as a Yankee Girl..I thought Uncle Remus was an invention of Disney too.

However, I'm not so sure Joel Chandler Harris totally came up with the character either.

In this Wiki link about HARRIS both Alice Walker and Toni Morrison say he stole a part of her heritage (Walker) and Morrison remember those stories as folk tales.

Interesting aside...Have you ever read any Neil Gaimen?
In two of his books "American Gods" and "Anansi's Boys" (or anansi's sons, cant quite remember) He has a character named Anansi who is a trickser god of African origin. Both are super books, both have a really smart humor. Read American Gods first though.

Anansi is in the form of a spider, and lives by his wits...the stories that are told within the books undoubtably ring of Briar Rabbit. There's also Monkey, Lion and so forth.

I wish someone who knows more about african culture would come along.

Anyway, I might be totally wrong, but looking at it in this context, the stories are worthwhile folktales that came from another country, no different from tales brought over from the homelands of others.

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Now I want to know where those stories originated. Smile

Interesting post, Chai.

Also always love to hear osso's take on things.

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I'd be interested in those books, Chai, thanks.

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Here's the A2K amazon link to Neil Gaiman's books

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It is entirely likely that these tales have their roots in African "folk" culture and even that analogous tales and characters exist in many other "folk" cultures as well. One doesn't have to be a Jungian about this. People who study such folk cultures have long noted that certain sorts of characters arise broadly across disparate cultures, for example, the wily fox.

Lash said:

Quote:

I do think, for the most part, the American liberal movement is (IMO) hyper concerned about words. There are some words I hate and will speak out about, when I am convinced they were intended to harm--but IMO the "liberals" take it to a ridiculous extreme. There are words (I feel are) much more harmless than tarbaby, which will set off a huge indignant media frenzy.

I do think an arm of the liberal movement uses it for nothing more than a club to bash conservatives. Sometimes rightly, sometimes deceptively.

As I mentioned to thomas, this acute attention to language seems to have blossomed in tandem with, or at least coincident to, the civil rights and feminist movements. I think that is, overall, a very good thing if for no other reason than bringing into fuller consciousness aspects of womens' and non-whites' marginalization or second-class status in our society.

It just seems to be a predictable part of any new social movement that an edge of it will be over-stated or over-weighted quite regardless of where on the political spectrum it happens. Reigning that in or correcting it is obviously a valuable exercise too.

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I do get your point, and I give it credence, blatham, but I wish these Word Hounds could at least explain calmly why they don't like a word, rather than insult the humanity of the (sometimes completely innocent) speaker.

Yes on Wiley Fox and Satanic snake, etc.

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The thing is, how does one measure the negative social consequences of a word like "slut" (no real analogous term for men) or even a word like "nigger". It's the sort of thing which can't be staticized or made available for precise weighting. We have our intutitions and personal experiences to work from, but that's about it. Perhaps that's why it has to be yelled about a bit.

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What did you think of tarbaby?

The Boston paper used the same term to describe the Big Dig. Romney was (it seems) innocently echoing it. It really seems like the black community attacked him for nothing more than being a Republican. Why didn't they attack the papers?

You know, the word was used in the same context (a sticky situation) by dlowan not long ago. Should someone yell at her? I have no doubt she didn't mean the racial reference--but she did say it...

My big case against PC is not when the complaint is legitimate, but when it's not. Like this one.

Really, it boils down to a bunch of people yelling at each other. Laughing

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Maybe the better question is who's offended? Who, exactly, was offended when Romney described the mess known as the 'Big Dig' as a tar baby?

To whom was he apologizing for using the words in the context he did?

Are those involved in the construction of the tunnel all black? If not, how did he offend African-Americans?

Yesterday I read a story of how the UK wants to rename a snack because it would be politically correct to do so. "Bombay Mix" should be changed to "Mumbai Mix" because, omygod, the original name may be offensive.

To WHOM?????

This whole 'political correctness' thing is stupid.

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Lash wrote:

What did you think of tarbaby?

The Boston paper used the same term to describe the Big Dig. Romney was (it seems) innocently echoing it. It really seems like the black community attacked him for nothing more than being a Republican. Why didn't they attack the papers?

You know, the word was used in the same context (a sticky situation) by dlowan not long ago. Should someone yell at her? I have no doubt she didn't mean the racial reference--but she did say it...

My big case against PC is not when the complaint is legitimate, but when it's not. Like this one.

Really, it boils down to a bunch of people yelling at each other.

I might well have used the term myself in the context where Mitt used it. It seems a wonderfully evocative term, outside of those senses of it noted by McG.

Sure, they (or some of them) would likely have been predisposed to go after Mitt because of his affiliations. That's not to say they wouldn't have done much the same (or some other set of 'they' with opposing affiliations) had it been spoken by a Dem.

But it seems to me quite valid to go after an elected representative with more vigor than one would go after a newspaper...the politico being at the service of his constituents after all. There is also the matter of differing profile of the two cases (Mitt's usage vs paper's usage)...many more would be witness to the first than the second.

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Interesting poll phrasing.

Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

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I thought the last option would cover all the stuff I missed.

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I never even knew "tarbaby" had a racial connotation! I mean, I can see how anything to do with the B'rer Rabbit stories could turn into shaky ground, but my gosh, it's a shame that such an evocative phrase has been turned into an epithet. I know the term from my dad reading me the Uncle Remus stories when I was a kid, never even saw the Disney version. I really would have had no idea at all that it was a controversial phrase if I hadn't seen this thread... Confused

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Political Correctness: Make a Judgment

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