Cycloptichorn wrote:
Let me ask you, Okie et others: what right did Israel have to exist, other than the fact that the West decided that they had a right to exist? The country certainly wasn't Israel prior to our involvment in the area, but instead was full of Palestinians.
When Mark Twain visited the holy land in the late 1800s, it was largely deserted, i.e. there was basically nobody living there. Jerusalem was described as a ghost town sort of like Dodge City.
Then the zionists came in and did all the heavy lifting to make the region habitable, and THEN the slammites started pouring in and, as is their custum, began making preparations to take the area over and usurp it.
There cannot be more than a handful of slammites living in or near Israel who have any history of living there going back more than a hundred years.
50 years of zionist forgery and land grab
By Zafar Bangash
One of the biggest injustices of the twentieth century - the fiftieth anniversary of the establishment of the State of Israel - is being celebrated in a manner bordering on the scandalous. The implantation of the zionist entity in Palestine has been rightly described as al-Nakba (the catastrophe) by Palestinians.
The hoopla surrounding Israeli celebrations conveniently ignores the fact that Palestine was stolen by European Jews in connivance with the European powers, primarily Britain but also France (and later the US) to create a western beach-head in the heartland of Islam. This was only made possible by driving out the indigenous population - the Palestinians - from their ancestral lands, through terror and mass murder.
The zionists have peddled the mythology of turning 'deserts into orchards' with the active collaboration of the west. Their claim to Palestine is based on a complete perversion of historical facts sprinkled with Biblical references to geography. The zionists - most of them secular fanatics who have nothing to do with Judaism - have reduced the Bible to a real estate manual.
The zionist colonial settler enterprise was launched by shedding the blood of the Palestinians. It has been sustained through terror, the most common characteristic of the zionists, for 50 years. More than 475 Palestinian towns and villages were completely wiped out. There is no trace left of them anymore.
The link.
Like I say, this is a map of the slammite world and of Israel. Take a hard look, and then tell me who, between the Israelis and the slammites, is guilty of any sort of a "land grab":
The "true" history of Palestine:
1896-1916 - Zionist movement
In 1896 following the appearance of anti-Semitism in Europe, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism tried to find a political solution for the problem in his book, 'The Jewish State'. He advocated the creation of a Jewish state in Argentina or Palestine.
In 1897 the first Zionist Congress was held in Switzerland, which issued the Basle programme on the colonization of Palestine and the establishment of the World Zionist Organization (WZO).
In 1904 the Fourth Zionist Congress decided to establish a national home for Jews in Argentina.
In 1906 the Zionist congress decided the Jewish homeland should be Palestine.
In 1914 With the outbreak of World War I, Britain promised the independence of Arab lands under Ottoman rule, including Palestine, in return for Arab support against Turkey which had entered the war on the side of Germany.
1916 - Sykes-Picot Agreement
Britain and France signed the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned to France, Jordan and Iraq to Britain and Palestine was to be internationalized.
1917 - Balfour Declaration
The British government therefore issued the Balfour Declaration on November 2, 1917, in the form of a letter to a British Zionist leader from the foreign secretary Arthur J. Balfour: "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
1922 - A Mandate for Palestine
The Council of the League of Nations issued a Mandate for Palestine. The Mandate was in favor of the establishment for the Jewish people a homeland in Palestine.
1929 - The riots
In August 1929, the century's first large-scale attack on Jews by Arabs rocked Jerusalem. The riots, in which Palestinians killed 133 Jews and suffered 116 deaths. Mostly inflicted by British troops were sparked by a dispute over use of the Western Wall of Al-Aqsa Mosque ( this site is sacred to Muslims, but Jews claimed it is the remaining of jews temple all studies shows clearly that the wall is from the Islamic ages and it is part of al-Aqsa Mosque). But the roots of the violence lay deeper in Arab fears of the burgeoning Zionist movement , which aimed to make at least part of British-administered Palestine a Jewish state.
The British had made promises to both Arabs and Zionists. The 1917 Balfour Declaration supported the establishment of a "national home" for the Jews, while pledging that nothing would be done to " prejudice the civil and religious rights" of the Arabs. But the very presence of a Jewish homeland would, Arabs insisted, infringe on those rights.
1937 - The Peel Commission
Since the Balfour Declaration of 1917 (which endorsed the idea of a Jewish state within Palestine), the British government had been struggling to reconcile the conflicting aspirations of Jews and Arabs in Palestine, which Britain administered under a League of Nations mandate . Those who still believed in the possibility of peaceful coexistence between the two groups got a grim comeuppance in July 1937 when the Peel Commission, headed by Lord Robert Peel, issued its report. Basically, the commission concluded, the mandate in Palestine was unworkable There was no hope of any cooperative national entity there that included both Arabs and Jews, . The impetus for the commission's formation had been the most recent spark of Palestinian violence.Riots and Arab protests against the Jews in Palestine had been escalating throughout the 1920s and '30s. In the mid-1930s, in response to the thousands of Jews who'd arrived from Europe, Palestinian Arabs formed the Arab High Committee to defend themselves against what they perceived as a Jewish takeover A general strike exploded into a revolt. Desperate for a solution, the British appointed Lord Peel to study the situation. The Arab leadership boycotted the study.
After dismissing the possibility of Arab-Jewish amity, the commission went on to recommend the partition of Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a neutral sacred site state to be administered by Britain. Within two years, Britain found itself in a no-win situation, and on the eve of World War II issued the infamous "White Paper" severely curtailing Jewish immigration into Palestine.
1947 - Great britain withdraw & the UN partition plan
Exhausted by seven years of war and eager to withdraw from overseas colonial commitments, Great Britain in 1947 decided to leave Palestine and called on the United Nations (UN) to make recommendations. In response, the UN convened its first special session in 1947, and on November 29, 1947, it adopted a plan calling for partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem as an international zone under UN jurisdiction; the Jewish and Arab states would be joined in an economic union. The partition resolution was endorsed by a vote of 33 to 13, supported by the United States and the Soviet Union. The British abstained.
1948 - First Arab-Israeli War
In Palestine, Arab protests against partition erupted in violence, with attacks on Jewish settlements in retaliation to the attacks of Jews terrorist groups to Arab Towns and villages and massacres in hundred against unarmed Palestinian in there homes , that soon led to a full-scale war. The British generally refused to intervene, intent on leaving the country no later than August 15, 1948, the date in the partition plan for termination of the mandate.
When it became clear that the British intended to leave by May 15, leaders of the Yishuv decided (as they claim) to implement that part of the partition plan calling for establishment of a Jewish state. In Tel Aviv on May 14 the Provisional State Council, formerly the National Council, "representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the World Zionist Movement," proclaimed the "establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called Medinat Israel (the State of Israel)
open to the immigration of Jews from all the countries of their dispersion."
On May 15 the armies of Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq joined Palestinian and other Arab guerrillas who had been fighting Jewish forces since November 1947. The war now became an international conflict, the first Arab-Israeli War. The Arabs failed to prevent establishment of a Jewish state, and the war ended with four UN-arranged armistice agreements between Israel and Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria. The frontiers defined in the armistice agreements remained until they were altered by Israel's conquests during the Six Days War in 1967.
1948 - Israel founded
The population balance in the new state of Israel was drastically altered during the 1948 war. The armistice agreements extended the territory under Israel's control beyond the UN partition boundaries from approximately 15,500 to 20,700 sq km (about 6,000 to 8,000 sq mi). The small Gaza Strip on the Egypt-Israel border was left under Egyptian control, and the West Bank was controled by Jordan . Of the more than 800,000 Arabs who lived in Israeli held territory before 1948, only about 170,000 remained. The rest became refugees in the surrounding Arab countries, ending the Arab majority in the Jewish state.
Israel's Provisional State Council organized elections for the first Knesset (parliament) in 1949. Chaim Weizmann, the most prominent Zionist leader of the prewar period, became the country's first president.
1954 - Nasser Takes Charges
For almost two years, Colonel Gamal Abdal Nasser had quietly directed Egypt's revolution-from-above, while General Muhammad Naguib served as president and prime minister. In February 1954, the colonel stepped to the fore. Citing Naguib's ties to the banned Muslim Brotherhood and his intention to restore the old system of government, Nasser forced him to resign. In April, Nasser took over the premiership.
1956 - The Suez campaign
Attempts to convert the Israeli-Arab armistice agreements into peace treaties were unsuccessful. The Arabs insisted that the refugees be permitted to return to their homes, that Jerusalem be internationalized, and that Israel make territorial concessions before they entered peace talks. Israel charged that these demands would undermine its security and refused them. Frequent incursions by refugee guerrilla bands and attacks by Arab military units were made, which Israel answered with forceful retaliation. Egypt refused to permit Israeli ships to use the Suez Canal and blockaded the Straits of Tiran (Israel's access to the Red Sea), which was seen as an act of war. Border incidents along the frontiers with Egypt escalated until they erupted in the second Arab-Israeli War in October and November of 1956.
Great Britain and France ostensibly joined the attack because of their dispute with Egypt's president Gamal Abdel Nasser, who had just nationalized the Suez Canal. Nasser took over the canal after Great Britain and France withdrew offers to finance the construction of the Aswan High Dam. Israel scored a quick victory, seizing the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula within a few days. As Israeli forces reached the banks of the Suez Canal, the British and French started their attack. The fighting was halted by the UN after a few days, and a UN Emergency Force (UNEF) was sent to supervise the cease-fire in the Canal zone. In a rare instance of cooperation, the United States and the Soviet Union supported the UN resolution forcing the three invading countries to leave Egypt and Gaza. By the end of the year their forces withdrew from Egypt, but Israel refused to leave Gaza until early 1957, and only after the United States had promised to help resolve the conflict and keep the Straits of Tiran open.
1958 - Arabs Unite
The 1958 merger of Syria and Egypt into the United Arab Republic was the first of a series of dramatic realignments throughout the Middle East, inspired by the vision of Gamal Abdal Nasser. Syria had been moving in the Egyptian dictator's ideological direction since the fall of a rightist military regime in 1954: the new junta, dominated by the socialist Ba'ath party, had followed Egypt in recognizing Mao's China and acquiring Soviet arms, Squeezed between Washington (which backed anti Soviet Arab governments against their nonaligned neighbors) and a growing domestic Communist movement, Syria's leaders decided to put their pan-Arabist notions to the test. National borders, after all, were a Western invention: Syria would lose nothing and gain untold strength by melding with dynamic Egypt. More changes followed quickly. Yemen, though ruled by a conservative monarch, sought security by affiliating itself with the U.A.R. in a confederation called the United Arab States, The Western-oriented kingdoms of Iraq and Jordan formed a rival union. In Saudi Arabia, King Saud was forced to cede authority to his relatively pro-Egyptian brother Faisal after being implicated in a plot on Nasser's life. In Lebanon, civil war erupted between Syrian-backed Arab nationalists and supporters of pro-Western president Camille Chamoun. In Iraq, when Premier Nuri al-Said decided to aid Chamoun, pro-Egyptian officers revolted killing Said along with King Faisal II and most of the royal family. The Iraqi-Jordanian federation was no more.
Fearing the spread of Nasserism to Lebanon, the United States sent 10,000 troops and sponsored talks between the warring factions. A compromise led to elections, and General Fuad Chehab less enthusiastically pro-Western and friendlier to Nasser than Chamoun became president.
Except for Jordan, all the Arab nations had now fallen more or less into Cairo's camp. But they soon fell out again. Iraq's strongman, Abdul Karim Kassem, developed a bitter personal rivalry with his Egyptian counterpart . The Syrians came to resent Nasser's authoritarianism, while the Saudis and Yemenites resisted his socialism. And by 1961, when Syria seceded from the U.A.R. , Arab unity lay in ruins.
1964 - PLO established
The Palestine Liberation Organization was established. On 1 January 1965 The Palestine 'Revolution' began .
1967 - The Six Days War
After the Suez-Sinai war Arab nationalism increased dramatically, as did demands for revenge led by Egypt's president Nasser. The formation of a united Arab military command that massed troops along the borders, together with Egypt's closing of the Straits of Tiran and Nasser's insistence in 1967 that the UNEF leave Egypt, led Israel to attack Egypt, Jordan, and Syria simultaneously on June 5 of that year.
The war ended six days later with an Israeli victory. Israel's French-equipped air force wiped out the air power of its antagonists and was the chief instrument in the destruction of the Arab armies.
The Six Days War left Israel in possession of Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula, which it took from Egypt; Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank, which it took from Jordan; and the Golan Heights, taken from Syria. Land under Israel's jurisdiction after the 1967 war was about four times the size of the area within its 1949 armistice frontiers. The occupied territories included an Arab population of about 1.5 million.
The occupied territories became a major political issue in Israel after 1967. The right and leaders of the country's orthodox religious parties opposed withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza, which they considered part of Israel. In the Labor Alignment, opinion was divided; some Laborites favored outright annexation of the occupied territories, others favored withdrawal, and some advocated retaining only those areas vital to Israel's military security. Several smaller parties, including the Communists, also opposed annexation. The majority of Israelis, however, supported the annexation of East Jerusalem and its unification with the Jewish sectors of the city, and the Labor-led government formally united both parts of Jerusalem a few days after the 1967 war ended. In 1980 the Knesset passed another law, declaring Jerusalem "complete and united," Israel's eternal capital.
The 1967 war was followed by an upsurge of Palestinian Arab nationalism. Several guerrilla organizations within the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) carried out guerrillas attacks on Israeli targets, with the stated objective of "redeeming Palestine." Guerrillas attacks on Israelis targets at home and abroad unified public opinion against recognition of and negotiation with the PLO, but the group nevertheless succeeded in gaining widespread international support, including UN recognition as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinians."
Cyclo,
You have said that there was a country called Palestine there,and that the UN just took it over for the Jews.
I have looked on maps dating back to the late 1800's,and there is no reference to a country called Palestine anywhere.
Where was its capitol?
Who was its leader?
Did they have embassies in any other country?
What was their monetary system?
What form of govt did they have?
Quote:You simply don't have a clue what you are talking about,
What makes you an expert?
What credentials do you have to be an expert on the region,and know more then everyone else?
freedom4free wrote:Lash
Quote:..they've done nothing wrong but a) be born and b) survive and c) live long enough for the rest of the world to be so morally convicted of the inhumane treatment they've suffered, to be given a homeland, where they shouldn't have to feel hunted and threatened...
Don't you mean 'we' ?
Anyway i was wondering how long it would take for them to use the 'holocaust' card.
Yes, I'm a Jew. And, black and gay and poor, and a woman, and an aborted baby and a baby seal and ....Spartacus, and we're coming for you and everybody else who hates groups of people for no good reason.
What causes you to be so painfully insecure about who you are that you hate a group of people you don't know?
The Holocaust is a fact of life that changed the history of the world and led to the creation of Israel. It can't be left out of the dialogue.
Cycloptichorn wrote:Quote:cyclops, I think Tico pointed out Israel offered 98% of what the Palestinians demanded, and they turned it down.
Really? Can you point out where he did that?
Cycloptichorn
Some claim it was more like 90% e.g.
http://www.antiwar.com/mcconnell/mc112701.html
Arafart's henchmen all strongly suggested he take it, and one has to assume his refusal was based on fear of assasination from within his own organization.
What that means in practical terms is that in slammite societies, the craziest people often rule by fear. Any sort of a leader who tries to do anything a bit too rational, usually gets killed.
Lash wrote:
The Holocaust is a fact of life that changed the history of the world and led to the creation of Israel.
I don't doubt at all your first, but the second part ...?
mysteryman wrote:
I have looked on maps dating back to the late 1800's,and there is no reference to a country called Palestine anywhere.
Any school history atlas actually should be fine, as well as most history department/faculty websites have links to history maps.
Walter--
You don't think the Holocaust was a contributing reason Israel was set aside for Jewish people? If not, what do you feel led to it?
Walter Hinteler wrote:mysteryman wrote:
I have looked on maps dating back to the late 1800's,and there is no reference to a country called Palestine anywhere.
Any school history atlas actually should be fine, as well as most history department/faculty websites have links to history maps.
Yes,there is a REGION called Palestine.
I never disputed that.
The claim was that there was a COUNTRY named Palestine.
That means it had its own govt,was recognized by other countries,its own flag,its own judicial system,its own monetary system,etc.
Where was that country?
Who was its leader?
There has NEVER been a country named Palestine.
It was always just a region of the world.
You can have a REGION with zero inhabitants. Antarctica and the Gobi deserts are REGIONS....
mysteryman wrote:
The claim was that there was a COUNTRY named Palestine.
That means it had its own govt,was recognized by other countries,its own flag,its own judicial system,its own monetary system,etc.
In political geography, international politics and international law a country is a geographical territory.
Any source for your claim or is it just your own idea?
Walter Hinteler wrote:mysteryman wrote:
The claim was that there was a COUNTRY named Palestine.
That means it had its own govt,was recognized by other countries,its own flag,its own judicial system,its own monetary system,etc.
In political geography, international politics and international law a country is a geographical territory.
Any source for your claim or is it just your own idea?
Here is what Cyclo wrote,claiming that there was a COUNTRY there before Israel...
Quote:You do realize that there was a country in that 'little plot of land' that was pretty damned important to the people in the region before we set Israel there, don't you?
So,it was Cyclo's claim that I was responding to.
Which doesn't change at all my informations that you are wrong with this resposne - or you show me relavant sources giving different opinions.
mysteryman wrote:
The claim was that there was a COUNTRY named Palestine.
That means it had its own govt,was recognized by other countries,its own flag,its own judicial system,its own monetary system,etc.
palestinefacts.org is ran by pro-Israeli causes; it doesn't take more than a cursory reading of the site to see that it exists to deny any claims against Zionism and the Israeli state. It cannot be relied upon as a neutral source for information regarding the history of Israel and Palestine.
MM,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
Is going to be a nice resource for learning about the problems associated with the creation of Israel.
Here is a map of the proposed UN plan for the two-state solution:
All those areas which were outlined in orange would have to be forcibly depopulated of Arabs and Muslims in order to create a Jewish state. This didn't go over well with the people living there at the time, as you can imagine.
It is also important to note that the Israelis had their own version of 'terrorism' in the Irgun:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
Today, the Irgun would have been counted as a terrorist organization (at least by the US standards).
I say all this not to attack Israel, but to challenge those who believe that Israel has any sort of special moral authority that other countries do not have. They do not, and noone has shown where they do. We have mixed evidence that the Israeli soldiers which were captured by Hez. were on the Israeli side of the border; there seem to be some conflicting reports about this from other sources.
This would hardly be the first time that aggressive action against neighbors was portrayed as defense by a nation with far superior armed forces.
In fact, I would say that they have far less moral authority than many, for they are a Theocracy, not a Democracy.
Lash:
Quote:You don't think the Holocaust was a contributing reason Israel was set aside for Jewish people? If not, what do you feel led to it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917
Cycloptichorn
Lash wrote:Walter--
You don't think the Holocaust was a contributing reason Israel was set aside for Jewish people? If not, what do you feel led to it?
It might well be that the holocaust comtributed resons to create Israel at the time after WWII, but I was only answering to your response saying "The Holocaust is a fact of life that changed the history of the world and led to the creation of Israel."
Walter Hinteler wrote:Lash wrote:Walter--
You don't think the Holocaust was a contributing reason Israel was set aside for Jewish people? If not, what do you feel led to it?
It might well be that the holocaust comtributed resons to create Israel at the time after WWII, but I was only answering to your response saying "The Holocaust is a fact of life that changed the history of the world and led to the creation of Israel."
...was a contributing factor that led to the creation of Israel...
I'm working on speaking more clearly, so I won't need to be clarifying my statements so often.