Democratic Party leadership statements of support for Israel

So, let me get this straight... Hamas and Hezbollah kidnap Israeli soldiers and offer to do a prisoner exchange and Israel is supposed to just say "ok, sounds good to us!"?

Do you think that will stop future kidnappings? Do you believe Isarel should not protect it's citizens or it's soldiers?

I honestly do not understand why so many on the left are so against Israel defending itself. Is it over the top? Probably, but why not? How else do you get their enemies to stop and think about what they are doing?

Pay attention to what happens directly before Israel attacks.

How do you know what happened? None of us really know what happened prior to Israel's attack, either on Gaza or on Lebanon.

Cycloptichorn

Did you read any of the articles --notably the one with a leader of Hizbollah a couple of weeks ago?

Do you not believe the news accounts from multiple sources that report Hizbollah crossed the Israeli border to fight and kidnap Israeli soldiers--or is that not a good enough reason for you? (I'm thinking it's not.)

As I said earlier in the thread, it's hard to know what to believe. Most of the information about what is happening comes from Israel, and is therefore somewhat suspect. Regardless of anyone's opinion of any of the players involved, this would hardly be the first time that an act of aggression was portrayed as a defensive maneuver by a superior force.

Cycloptichorn

I think you're almost fatally wedged into the "I'll believe whatever supports my biases" crevice. Sorta like the religion threads. C'mon. Don't go there.

Read the accounts. Be fair. Have you ever thought of it compassionately from Israel's standpoint?

Of course I have. Have you, from the other viewpoint?

I'm sure I don't need to remind you of what the conditions in Gaza have been like for the last few months.

I haven't condemned anyone, you may note - I only stated that it is hard to know what to think about this conflict.

Cycloptichorn

The conditions in Gaza? They elected Hamas to govern them, what did they expect to happen?

Yes, I have. But, it wasn't recently that Hamas and Hizbollah pledged to erase Israel off of the world.

Why aren't they mad at the global community that planted Israel there? Always wondered that.

And, having forcibly put Israel there, isn't it the job of the global community to protect them?

I was wondering--do you consider the War of 67 Israel's aggression?

McG wrote:
The conditions in Gaza? They elected Hamas to govern them, what did they expect to happen?

Isn't it funny that Bush wants to bring democracy to the middle east, and when a country elects their own people to power, the US citizens complain.

I'm not complaining a bit. They elected their government, but I don't recall ever seeing that we had to support a government, elected or not, that is run by terrorists.

That's how the conditions in Gaza deteriorated, Hamas lost all their funds due to their terrorist activities. They brought it upon themselves.

I am literally amazed at the terrorist sympathizers on this thread. Amazement turns to the question, are they nuts or traitors or both? Some of the comments here are becoming dangerously close to being anti-American, plain and simple. Do you pro-terrorist people realize what you are advocating here, and whose side you are pulling for? You are essentially on the side of barbarians, for terrorists, for people that advocate their children strap on bombs and blow themselves up, for people that celebrated when the towers came down, we could become more verbally descriptive, but you should get the picture. The pictures posted by Ticomaya should have awakened you to reality.

The fact is Israel has been America's ally for decades, and last I checked, it continues to be. It has been that way under both Republican and Democratic leadership in this country for decades, for very good reasons.

What is interesting about this thread is that those people that condemn terrorism utterly ignore the fact that many of Israel's founding fathers were themselves terrorists, individuals such as Menachem Wolfovitch Begin and Yitzhak Shamir who would later go on to be elected Prime Ministers of Israel. These terrorists were leaders of either of the two major Zionist terrorist groups, the Irgun Zvai Leumi, or Irgun; and Lohamei Herut Israel, or LEHI (also referred to as The Stern Gang by the British Mandate authority after it's first leader, Avraham Stern) that were eventually successful through their terrorist activities in driving the British out of Palestine, and later were successful in decimating the Arab population through ethnic cleansing in the areas the Zionists were to control in the '48 war after their incorporation into the Haganah, the precursor of the IDF. If one is to use metaphors, if Israel wasn't founded on terrorism, it was surely midwived thereof.

Condemnation of "terrorists" really just boils down to who's side one supports. Otherwise, these groups and individuals are solemnly remembered and revered and are instead labeled "freedom fighters."

Betcha no one will bother to reply to infraBlue's excellent post...

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Slightly off topic:



While the victims of Katrina are still waiting for assistance.

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Back on topic

Don't let them fool you - ISRAEL STARTED IT

Ever since the bloody carnage in Lebanon started, the mainstream media has echoed Israel's self-righteous indignation about how they're merely defending themselves - "Israeli sovereignty was violated" when Hizbullah "kidnapped" their soldiers from "across the border."

What they conveniently reverse is that Hizbullah confronted Israeli troops on the LEBANESE SIDE OF BORDER.

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I was planning on ignoring it ... it's a familiar theme. It would be refreshing to see the terrorist apologists on this board condemn the islamic fundamentalist terrorists in the strongest terms, but by and large they can't seem to bring themselves to do that for some reason. They feel driven instead to point blame at the US or Israel. I don't respect their position, and have very little respect for them.

Lash,



http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html



One of the major problems with the 'multiple news accounts' is that, like most other information portrayed in our media about Israel, the news accounts are written in Israel and disseminated to the US whole.

Why do you people see Israel as a 'good guy?' What have they done that would show them to be 'good guys?' It seems to me that generations of guilt about what happened in WW2 has lead to the perception that the Israelis are somehow different than other countries or people. They are not.

Conditions inside Gaza have been brutal these last few months. The area had been closed off completely (this is far before any soldier was kidnapped or any agressive action took place on the part of the Palestinians) and there was practically no ability to live a normal life on the part of the Palestinians inside. Why can't you people see that if you place enough people in a pressure cooker for long enough, and turn up the heat, then you are going to get a response?

Okie takes the predictable nutjob tack:


In case you have forgotten, Israel isn't America. Israel has never acted in America's best interests. They have continually acted in their own best interests. Hell, they blew up one of our warships several years back!

Many proponents of Israel's side in this conflict answer each other's questions on the thread:

Lash Wrote:


Okie Wrote:


They of course are mad at the global community, but what can they do about it? They don't have an army, they don't have an economy to speak of, they don't have secure water sources. What the hell are they going to do about it? Nothing, there's nothing they can do.

Do you remember Jenin, and what happened there? I do.

As I said earlier in the thread, it is hard to know what to think about this conflict. I haven't condemned Israel's actions, but they are acting in a very aggressive manner. Making them out to be some sort of victim is the height of ridiculousness.

Cycloptichorn

McG wrote:
I'm not complaining a bit. They elected their government, but I don't recall ever seeing that we had to support a government, elected or not, that is run by terrorists.

That's how the conditions in Gaza deteriorated, Hamas lost all their funds due to their terrorist activities. They brought it upon themselves.

Do you understand anything about the middle east history? You probably don't remember the US support for Egypt and Saddam.

Israel kills Lebanese civilians
An Israeli air raid has killed at least 13 Lebanese civilians who were fleeing southern border areas.
Women and children were among those killed when the convoy was hit. "Bodies litter the road," an eyewitness said.

Israel has expanded its campaign launched after Hezbollah militants seized two Israeli soldiers. More than 70 Lebanese have been killed.

Hezbollah has responded with rockets. Several have hit the town of Tiberias in the deepest such attack in Israel.

Three Israeli sailors are missing after their ship was hit by a Hezbollah missile on Friday. The body of a fourth was found, according to Israeli media.

The ship caught fire after it was hit by an Iranian-made missile, the Israeli military said.





Israeli jets have also fired rockets on the Lebanon-Syrian border.

The exact location of the Israeli action is not clear, but Syria has denied that Israel hit targets in its territory.

"The air force is bombing roads and bridges on the border between Lebanon and Syria to prevent Hezbollah from taking our captured soldiers out of the country," an Israeli army spokeswoman said, quoted by the Agence France Presse news agency.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said the offensive will continue until Hezbollah releases the soldiers and stops firing rockets at Israel.

At least four people have been injured in the Tiberias rocket-fire, which came as Israel deployed interceptor missiles in the northern port city of Haifa.

In other attacks:



Israeli planes struck the northern port city of Tripoli, and carried out raids in north and north-eastern Lebanon for the first time

They targeted the port and a lighthouse in the capital Beirut and destroyed the headquarters of Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah amid a series of strikes on the southern suburbs, which are a Hezbollah stronghold

Three civilians were killed in an Israeli attack in Hermel, on the border with Syria, Hezbollah's al-Manar TV said

Israeli warplanes also targeted sites in the eastern city of Baalbek.

Nowhere to flee

A number of families were fleeing their village of Marwahin on the Israeli border when their convoy was struck by missiles, a UN spokesman told the BBC.


ISRAEL IN LEBANON
March 1978: Israel invades to stop Palestinian attacks
1982: Full-scale invasion; Israel occupies Beirut; pro-Israel militias massacre Palestinian refugees
May 1983: Israel pulls back, but keeps "security zone"
February 1992: Israeli air strike kills Hezbollah leader
1996: Israel launches "Grapes of Wrath" raids on Hezbollah; 100 civilians die under Israeli shelling of UN base at Qana
May 2000: Israel withdraws troops from Lebanon
January 2004: Prisoners-bodies swap agreed between Hezbollah and Israel


Local residents told al-Jazeera TV the villagers were hit after being told to leave Marwahin by the Israelis and then refused shelter by the UN forces.

The main road had been under continuous bombardment, Ahmad Ali Ubayd said.

"Where is the international justice when children, women, and the elderly are killed?" he said.

Correspondents say there is nowhere safe to go for many trying to flee the south.

In past hostilities, much of the mainly Shia population of the south has sought refuge in Beirut's largely Shia southern suburbs, which are now under attack too.

A number of bridges, petrol stations and key roads have also been hit, including the main road linking northern Lebanon to Syria.


HAVE YOUR SAY
Violence should always be a last resort, not the first
Stephen Macadam, Rugby, UK


Thousands of foreigners have fled Beirut, leaving its economy in tatters.

Countries including the US and France are making plans to evacuate their nationals from Lebanon.

The presidents of the US and Russia have differed in emphasis in voicing concern about the Mid-East crisis at the G8 summit in St Petersburg.

George W Bush urged Lebanon's Hezbollah to disarm while Vladimir Putin called for a "balanced" use of force by Israel.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5182564.stm

Putin's request sounds like the more sane and balanced over moron Bush's.

Israel's provocation:


July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with.....