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How To Prevent This From Happening Again?

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:47 am
Craven- Of course I mourn for the child, who did NOT make the decision himself. Why do you think that I am exhibiting disregard for the child? It certainly WAS a tragedy, and I perceived it as such.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:51 am
Because until I mentioned it you sought to focus only on those who did make the choice.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:51 am
The same happens in Europe, when truck drivers take asylum seekers in closed lorries across the country. Some dozen deaths recently happened.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:56 am
Are you sure, Mr. Hinteler that these people really seek for asylum (i.e., the real threat to their lives exists in their home countries), and not for possibilities to milk the extremely generous social security system of European countries that may enable them to have quite decent living standards without working even one hour a year?
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:00 pm
Craven- You are right. I did not focus on the loss of the child. But how could that have changed my thoughts on the subject, or changed what occurred? Often children suffer from the poor decisions of their parents.

There are two entirely separate issues here-

The truckers committed an unspeakable act, and deserve severe punishment.

The passengers got caught up in that act due to a decision of their own. Unlike in Hitler's time, no one forced these people into boxcars.

If you can show me where I have been callous, please do!
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:03 pm
steissd,

I knew it wouldn't be long before the polictics would raise it's head. Now they are lazy in addition to dumb?

I despise a victim mentality as much as the next guy, but there's a difference between eschewing that mentality and seeking to blame the unfortunate for all their misfortunes.

---------------


Throuhout history, it has long been popular to blame the poor for their poverty, blame the miserable for their misery. That they are responsible for their actions is a no-brainer, what is often conveniently left out is the fact that they are also subject to the consequences of the actions of others.

Many fine minds have sought to dispell the notion that each individual in society has exclusive control of their social status, it's unfortunate that many nowadays seek to paint this realization as a victim mentality. It's obvious that their own actions will have the most effect in their lives, this does not dicount from the fact that the actions of other individuals and society as a whole also affect them and that by trying to focus all the blame on the dead we miss the opportunity to adjust the actions, and therefore the consequences, of the living.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:04 pm
steissd

Actually I don't know and I don't mind.

They are dead, killed by scruplous people, who just want to get money from desperate people.

I really wonder.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:05 pm
Phoenix,

I am under no illusion that I will convince you of having had a callous moment. Maybe it is just simpler to say that I do not think it was intentional. Often good intentions can be callous and in any case it's a subjective word that we will inevitably interpret differently.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:09 pm
(Walter, I think you must mean "unscrupulous" -- or have a very dark sense of humor...)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:13 pm
Thanks for the correction - but both is correct, patiodog! :wink:
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:15 pm
(This mistake happened, because "skrupelos" is the German word for "unscrupulous".)
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:20 pm
Huh. I guess the Anglo-Saxons screwed that one up, huh?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:58 pm
Well, its from Latin >scrupus< (originially: pointed stone).
The English term is from 1803 (according to m-w), so perhaps it's not really the Anglo-Saxons, who did the screwing up.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 01:09 pm
CdK, it took me time to find some proofs of my claims about sufficient part of the so-called "asylum seekers" being mere parasites that want to have a European-style dolce vita without giving anything in return. I have read about it several months ago online, but as it often happens, Google search by keywords brought too many results to find the relevan example for quoting.
So, here it goes
Quote:
A new government - a new immigration policy[/size]



Thursday January 18, the Danish government presented its proposals for a new immigration policy. The intentions behind the proposal is to lower the number of immigrants and refugees that enter Denmark, and to speed up the process of getting them a job. The proposal will be decided upon in the Folketing (the Danish Parliament) in the near future. These are the key points:


Less refugees to Denmark: The Government wants abrogate the term "de facto-refugee" (i.e. someone not recognized as a refugee by international law, yet treated as one based on the circumstances) which annually lets more than 2000 refugees into Denmark. The government wants to work for a common European set of rules for asylum.
Refugees shall not turn into immigrants: As a main rule refugees must return to their home countries. Therefore the government wants to raise the number of years before refugees can get a permanent residence permit from three to seven.
Tighter prosedure for asylum seekers: If they go underground the case will be dropped.
Immigrants who have been refused a residence permit because of serious crime will not receive the usual social benefit, and can be held under observation, i.e. they will have to report themselves to the police or stay in a place for refugees.
Immigrants must be able to support themselves financially. Otherwise they can be expelled.
Stricter demands for refugees who want to bring their family to Denmark: If a spouse wants to bring his or her partner to Denmark both will have to be older than 24 years old (today it's 18) and must be able to prove a common bond to Denmark and Danish society
Stricter control with social benefits to immigrants and refugees.
Recruitment of qualified workers: Possibility of getting a greencard for people with skills that are needed on the labour market.
Integration to the labour market: The government will prepare a new plan in order to get immigrants to join the work force. The social benefits must be lowered so that the incentive to work will become stronger. [/i][/color][/size]
As a main rule immigrants shall not revieve social benefits. Only people who have been in Denmark for seven out of the past eight years will have the right to receive full social benefits.
Better introduction for new immigrants: More initiatives to help immigrants get into the labour market as quickly as possible.
Better integration of children and young people: The government will see to that children speak fluent Danish when they begin primary school.
Stricter rules for getting Danish citizenship: More emphasis on Danish language skills. Crime leading to more than two years of prison will exclude a person from eligability for Danish citizenship. Citizenship can be given after eight or nine years in Denmark. A person who owes money to the Danish State cannot become a citizen.

Pay attention to the paragraph marked by me by color, size, etc. If there was no problem with their willingness to work for money, what for such a legal incentive for working should be introduced? European social security system is so much generous that it is possible to have quie a good life in many of the EU countries without working even an hour in a whole life. Labor moral in many parts of the Third World seriously differs from this dictated by the Protestant ethics...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 01:18 pm
Quote:
Homeland: Into a World of Hate
by Nick Ryan
320pp, Mainstream, £15.99
The past decade has seen a remarkable resurgence in the political fortunes of the far right in Europe. In France, Austria, Italy, Denmark, Holland and Belgium, populist nationalism has become a significant electoral force, basing its appeal on fears about immigration, crime and the decline of the nation-state through European unification. The new, "respectable" far-right parties insist they are not extremists; they speak a gentler language of security and community, and are embarrassed by the presence of neo-Nazis at their rallies.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 01:19 pm
CdK, I must admit that I have some personal attitude toward parasites. I am an immigrant myself: I left the USSR for Israel in 1990. And I started working the second day after having arrived in Israel. I milked cows in the dairy farm, worked as a packer, tirebuilder, general laborer, metalworker, security guard... It took me 5 years to find a decent office position, and all this time I worked like a prisoner in the labor camp, often 60-70 hours a week, just to make the ends meet. Why should other people conduct parasitic way of life just for being immigrants? I understand Danes that got fed up with spending their tax money (and direct taxation level in Scandinavian countries is very high) for feeding the seekers of dolce vita from the Third World (aka parasitic crooks having not got even a grain of conscience and responsibility).
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 01:21 pm
You needent have bothered, I could have found you hundreds of articles that would support your opinion given some leeway in interpretation.

I'd agree that the social benefits of Europe and the US are high, but what I think many fail to understand is that it's not the level of the benefits but rather the absolute lack of them in their native countries that make people leave.

I'm sure there are lazy immigrants, but most don't think "I'm going to a first world country so I can sit on my butt and collect money". It might happen, an immigrant might settle into a lazy life of hand outs, but the original motivation is usually not motivated by laziness but simply a desire for a better quality of life.

As an aspiring immigrant I'm sure you can appreciate those desires. And you live in a country whose economic situation is not bad in comparison to some of the other countries we have been speaking of.

But this is a very sharp political difference that citing articles is not going to solve. Europe has taken a swing toward the right and have been seeking to thwart immigration. Australia and other countries have taken similar steps.

While some may consider this a righting of a wrong I don't, I consider it another cycle of xenophobia. It seems the average for such a cycle is about 15 years (unless circumstantial factors alter it) but that's just off the top of my head, I'd have to open a book to nail down a better average.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 01:25 pm
steissd,

I suspected that your working ethic made you especially resentful of the freeloaders. But I think the perception of immigrants as freeloaders is largely false. I think you are closer to a typical immigrant than the lazy profile.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 01:26 pm
Mr. Hinteler, there is a trend to label "neo-Nazi" everyone that agrees with two simple and reasonable things regarding immigrants:
  • When you live in Rome, you should act like a Roman
  • The only decent sources of income for a mature, non-disabled by age or maladies person are working or running a private business

If the above principles constitute basics of Nazism, then any reasonable person should join the NSDAP. But, IMO, Nazi theories and practices are not exactly about this...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 01:30 pm
Actually, even the Danish try to forcen it's asylum laws is just a proposal:
Quote:

The right to asylum is guaranteed by the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, with due respect for the rules of the Geneva Convention of 28 July 1951 and the protocol of 31 January 1967 relating to the status of refugees and in accordance with the Treaty establishing the European Community.


Nevertheles, in any European state the truck driver would be procecuted (and senteced) for murder in the second/third degree.
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