Pepsi Upsets Religion Again

Predjudice is always the best weapon to use againts predjudice. Hear hear!


not.

And it has nothing to do with not wanting to visit.

Piffka, you'd agree that according to the Bible, a true Christian would, if they knew what you believed, feel very prejudiced against you -- no?

I guess you could reply that you would prefer not to go to Salt Lake City, for example, but I think the point that Anastasia and others have made is that there are a great variety of Muslims and Muslim countries, which vary from each other as much as Salt Lake City varies from New York City.

I took a class on Islam from a very sweet, gentle, kind man -- painfully soft-spoken -- who was just in agony over how his religion was being portrayed in the West. Islam is the religion of peace and tolerance, he kept saying.

Dammit, sozobe's post is better. I didn't write enough to make sure it would not be misinterpreted.

She makes a valid point, the Bible is VERY prejudicial toward other religions if you agree with soem interpretations.

And much of the prejudice against Americans in Arab nations is due to what they percieve as prejudice against them.

I can fully understand that you might not want to visit countries you consider dangerous or uncomfortable.

But the predjudice that many Arabs have against Americans is not going to dissapate if predjudice is reflected back at them.

My reply had little to do with your desire not to visit muslim countries - although the strong way you presented that opinion did spark my interest.

You said yourself you're afraid - I think prejudice and fear go hand-in-hand, but that's just my opinion. You made very strong, prejudicial statements. I was just debating. <nods>

Thanks for explaining where you're coming from, though - that shines light on things.

stasia

Yes Sozobe, in my own little town, there are people who would burn me at the stake if they could. As a matter of fact, I have been to SLC, I didn't like it.

I have no reason to want to go somewhere and so I am prejudiced? I think I'm being careful. I have looked into it and decided that it is just not worth the risk. I don't want to go to Brazil, either. Does that mean I'm prejudiced against Portuguese South Americans? I don't want to go back to Alaska, does that mean I don't like Inupiats?

I feel sorry for Muslims -- they are caught in a religion, where once captured, they cannot be free. Consider reading the works of Taslima Nasrin.

Taslima Nasrin

I want to add that Salman Rushdie has published some really interesting essays about modern Islam and the need for Muslims to denounce the very real abuses that are taking place under Muslim regimes. To say that many Muslims are peace loving and tolerant is not to say that there are not others who are extremist and hateful. Just, that there is a wide range, as "Muslims" are hardly monolithic.

Piff,

In case you are wondering I don't think the lack of desire to visit a nation indicates prejudice. But I do caution that prejudice is often formed when confronted by prejudice. It's often odd to see two sides justifying their negative opinion of the other due to the other's prejudice.

Hear hear

Now there's something I'd subscribe to. (Which might get me into trouble with Anastasia, who pointed me to this thread, cause she looooves Pepsi.)

Still, the stoning-to-death and gang-rape thing - while not expressing less than utter disgust with it - should be recognized as the strictly regional thing it is, far from Islam-wide. North-Pakistan and Afghanistan. North-Nigeria. Possibly Somalia - female-circumcision country - ? But in the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world, no such things occur or would be condoned - let alone prescribed.

To take the broader context and the more concrete topic of travelling -



My mother travelled to Morocco and even Yemen. A female friend of hers holidayed in Jordan - and in the end married a Jordan(ian?) man. My best friend, moreover, lived in Palestine (Bethlehem), working as a volunteer teacher for a year. Her main problem was harrassment at the Israeli roadblockchecks, not harassment by the locals. She also travelled to Morocco several times. A great many Dutchmen go on holidays to the Turkish beaches every year. These are greatly varying trips - from the rather adventurous (Yemen) to where you can get Dutch snacks at bikini beach (that's Turkey). These require varying degrees of willingness to adapt.

Steissd has a valid point about double standards - one should beware of rejecting any call in the West for foreigners to adapt, but defending any Arab call for Westerners to adapt - that would be unfair. The truth is in the middle, of course. Either way you should be able to be yourself. But either way you always adapt some. You can wear traditional Muslim gear in the West, but you won't get any job with it. And with a niqaab on, so a recent case here in Holland, you're not allowed into school (rightfully so, I belief). So there's always limits. If you go to Yemen on holidays, you probably wouldnt strut around in bikini much, but it was no problem for my mother to walk the streets alone and talk to people on the market etc - much less stress than in Sri Lanka, in fact. And in Istanbul or Jakarta, again, you can pretty much go the way you would in Seattle. For foreigners, the standards are actually more lax. (My then-gf was in Istanbul with me sporting a shaven head - she was looked upon in wonder sometimes, but never harassed about it).

So, though I share your sentiments entirely, Piffka, I would warn a little against thinking North-Pakistan represented "Islam". It's a fact of life that if you live anywhere outside North-America and North-Europe, there's "people who feel they have the right to fuss about what others do with their sex lives" ... Whatever the religion, the degree of libertarianism here is rare. But it's a long way from that to stoning or even to 'fundamentalism' - and though the latter is on the rise, it is not actually (yet) the order of the day in most of the Muslim world.

BTW, the lack of desire to visit another nation might not be an indicator but the above quote might be.

What makes Islam more enthralling than other religions? Don't point me at someone ranting about Islam please, I can find people calling any religion evil etc.

Well, as nimh pointed out: Turkey is THE vacation country for Europeans.

Whoa, wait, before it seems I was rude - I see it has become a little sensitive a thing - I didn't mean to imply that your choice not to go to Mulsim countries in itself proves prejudice either. The prejudice people are mentioning and debating re: your posts is not in the statements about where you want to travel but in your statements that go like



Because that's a caricature. 'F course there are bad things going on in the Muslim world - increasingly so, too, obviously - which is reason enough for critical evaluation, and aggressive activism where necessary (for example in the Lawal case). But they are not reason enough for such blanket generalisations about Muslims collectively - and neither do such generalisations help in counteracting the prejudice and backwardness that does exist among Muslims, either.

Found this site, lots of interesting info:

http://www.jannah.org/sisters/

An excerpt from one of the many articles there:

nimh - getcher ass HOME! <giggles>

<they're so cute!!>

<sorry, couldn't resist. >

Good reference:

Women and Gender in Islam

Leila Ahmed (Professor of Women's Studies and Near Eastern

Studies at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst )

Least we forget, that Islam is becoming a major religion in the US.

I have that book! It's a good one.

<winks at sozobe>

I love to read that man talk.

and your arguments are very astute. (I'm reading you on two threads now)

Here, let me help you. I'm a nasty prejudiced person who is totally inconsiderate of the wonder that is Islam. Everything I have ever read about Islam is wrong; everything you have ever learned is right. There is no danger to women in Muslim countries and the state department is wrong to suggest it. All those people who say things like that... they're simply misguided or prejudiced, or both.

However, why don't you ask your Muslim friends what happens to Muslims who decide to leave the religion?

I used it in a course on Islam, I was taking 2 years ago.