Pepsi Upsets Religion Again

Piffka- I remember reading a story years ago, by a woman reporter. Seems that she was in a Muslim country (don't remember which). Anyhow, she said that she was ok in the city, but when she went a little away into the suburbs, she started to have trouble. Men would follow her, pinch her, and make lascivious gestures to her. Out of desperation and annoyance, she finally bought herself a chador, and wore it. She never had any more problems with the locals. Yeecch!

Well, I understood "I will never, ever go to a Muslim country. It's against my religion." in a different way.

Sorry.

Why not? As far as I understand, none of these countries forbids visits of American tourists. And since you are of Jewish origin, N.H., you may even get an Israeli citizenship very easily (I do not say that you should do this, but such a possibility exists, based on the Returning Law).

Oh.... I see. Walter, that's an old California joke. It goes like this... if I'm not going to do something and I won't because I DON'T WANT TO, then I can just say "It's against my religion" and that has to be the end of it because everybody recognizes that religion takes precedence, right? But I really am a pagan and they don't have any rules like that.

Truly, I would be afraid to go to a country that was fundamentally Muslim. If I were a man, maybe it would be different. I have no interest in being stoned, followed about or have to worry that I'll do something seriously wrong, like drop a veil, etc. At one point I considered it, even bought an extremely uncomfortable dress that covers everything. Then I thought, why bother? There are plenty of places that would like me just the way I am.

Well, reaction to Piffka's joke that was taken literally reflects double standards of some liberal thinkers toward Christians and Muslims. While they advocate rights of Muslim immigrants in the Western countries to live the way they are accustomed to, they deny the same rights of the Western visitors in the Muslim countries. If the aggressive Western person assaults a Muslim wearing a traditional garment, such an offender is being labeled a "Neo-Nazi"; Muslim ragtag practicing violent xenophobia is being referred to as defenders of the traditional values of their culture.

Xenophobia is xenophobia is xenophobia.

Thing is, I think the case is being overstated here. I don't think it's common for foreigners to be stoned etc.

Not common to be stoned, no - quite common to be harassed. No thanks!

in defense of muslims ...
... but first, new haven, in answer to your question about pepsi - I think they made a mistake. I think it was an innocent mistake, but I don't think it will hurt them at all. <shrugs> It was a just a really well-publicized act of vandalism. and maybe those pakistani teenagers with a rebel strek will even start drinking more pepsi - who knows?

now, piffka - it seems you have really strong views about "muslims" - as if they were a single entity. the way you talk expresses a lot of prejudice to me. do you know any muslims? I didn't meet a "real live" muslim until I was 24. A family of Palestinians moved in next door. In South Carolina, of all places! And guess what - I LOVED them! Palastinians,, of all people. Aren't they just EVIL?

And then I got to hear their side of the story with regard to Isreal, et al - and as I traveled the country, I met more Arabs (by this I mean people from "Arab" countries - as a general area of the globe) - and now I live in Holland - there are more Morroccan and Turkish immigrants here than any other kind. I do something called an Inburgerings Kursus - I'm doing a class in Dutch language and culture, and as an American I'm in the minority. Most of the people in my classes are - well - Turkish and Morroccan. But I'm pretty good friends with an Iraqui woman - who lived in Kurdistan with her Kurdish husband and fled from there. And an Afghan man who *really* loves America because there's such good shopping there.

There's a big difference in how things work in "Arab" countries with a religious leadership and ones with a military leadership or who are ruled by a monarchy. Jordan, for example, is a relatively American-friendly country. (Did you know that the last queen of Jordan was an American woman?) And it's a BEAUTIFUL country, full of rich history

I'd like to ask you a question - in *which* countries do those horrible things happen? I'm sure it's not all of them.

I'm not trying to be rude or pissy, just giving you some food for thought. It's a very real fear you have - I'm not knocking it. But I recognize it for something dangerous - stereotyping a whole group of (diverse) nations, based mostly on news reports about religiously fanatical people. I run into the same problem here in Europe - EVERYONE now thinks ALL Americans are like the ones they see on Jerry Springer.

It sucks. <giggles>

anastasia

Fantastic analogy!

thanks, craven. <smiles> it's true - I get so TIRED of having to answer that question - "Are you all really like that?"

Oh - also, on this topic - there's a new documentary out by the father in "Not Without My Daughter" ... I for one am going to see it.

http://www.payk.net/mailingLists/iran-news/html/current/msg00099.html

stasia

You Amrican? Cause if so I can sympathyze, I lived much of my life as an expat. If not I'll go with what i had planned and submit a generalized stereotype and say that I have yet to meet a Dutch that was of low tolerance and intelligence. I'm not sure if you are Dutch but you reminded me of how many fantastic individuals from that country I have met online and off. I can only remember one that was not impressive in a good way (in Brazil).

<ahem> the word I meant to use was "Islamic", for "Arab" ... knew there was something wrong there.

I'm American - I live with nimh. Dutch people ARE pretty tolerant - but the general move of the country here is just like everywhere else - toward the right.

And Dutch people aren't, on the whole quite *as* tolerant as the stereotype would have you believe. They're human, too. <winks>

I was just talking about that move on another thread. It's not everywhere BTW.

It feels like it. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad - or long-standing, even - thing. It'll just shake things up a bit.

which thread was that?

stasia

What's Egypt's current policy concerning visitors of different religions?

Here is the very post, I would have thought you'd read it because you mentioned the trend but you posted a few minutes before I did.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=209455#209455

That it's perfectly fine to accept tourism money from any religion. I hear it's not that great of a place to visit but know many people who go regularly.

The Nile tours by boat are extremely cheap (at least, when booked in Europe).
The Red Sea beach resorts are very popular, too.

Since a really great number of Germans are visiting Egypt (despite the terrorist attacks some time back!) (even from our small regional airport there 5 flights/week in May!) - they are accepting everyone's money, indeed.

Now why is it of concern to anyone that I have chosen to not visit Muslim countries where the law of the land is against my ideas of justice and humanity? To be prejudiced means to hold a judgement that has been made without previous knowledge.

I first met Muslims 30 years ago when I was working at the University. The ones I was friends with included a very wild man from Iraq who was also the Union organizer, a woman from Iran who was still bitter about the Shah, and two women from Indonesia with whom I was close. At the time I lived upstairs from an ever-changing group of Pakistanis. I was very worried about my friends who were being forced back to Indonesia against their will. They and their families had learned to enjoy the American way of life and THAT was the reason they were being sent home.

I was close to visiting Morocco two years ago, but due to state department advisories, decided against it. I have read many travel advisories for people going to north Africa and the Middle East. Many are governmental, and thus suspect, however all are quite clear that women must be very guarded in their actions.

I've had several friends who have gone to Muslim countries and listened to their stories, good and bad. Yes, the countries sound vaguely interesting. No, I don't want to go. According to the Koran, a true Muslim would, if they knew what I believed, feel very prejudiced against me. They may be "good" to Jews and Christians (people of the Book), but they don't care a fig for Pagans. Anyway, life is too short to spend any time at all visiting a place where one does not feel comfortable.