Quote:I'd rather lose while holding to my principles than win and lose them, and it saddens me profoundly to discover that is an alien concept to so many.
Please forward the above statement to Mr. Delay.
blatham - I don't approve of gerrymandering. Not by Delay, nor the Texas Republicans, nor by anyone.
And they violated the rule that prohibits any member from intentionally depriving the chamber of a quorum when a vote is called. (I currently have a huge file transfer underway and mile system has slowed to a crawl, but I will be happy to look it up for you later.)
This rule exists to prevent the minority position from doing exactly what was done in this case in TX.
Scrat
I'll take your word on this. Thank you.
From the perspective now, which of the two sins would you judge the more serious?
Tartarin wrote:To what extent does the Texas Congressional delegation represent the voters of Texas as a whole?
In one of my earlier posts to this thread, former state Senator Carl Parker of Port Arthur said:
"If you eliminated all the fools from the Texas Legislature, then you would not have adequate representation."
So this is ONE answer to your question, Tart. I'm sure there are several other good answers, too.
blatham - Here's a link to the rules for the Texas legislature.
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/capitol/hr77th.pdf
FYI: I do not find my interpretation, which you so graciously accepted at my word,
explicitly stated in the text.
HOWEVER, I think
it follows that if the rules allow for members to be arrested and compelled to attend (rule 5, section 8), the
intent is to prevent any member or members from intentionally denying the chamber a quorum once a call of the house has occurred. (You may disagree.)
As to your question which I consider worse, I thought that was clear. I will suffer abuses within the bounds of the rules far more easily than those without.
While I do not think to change your mind, I want to be clear once more as to how I see this... What I believe the Dems accomplished here was to see the will of the minority of representatives (a voting minority on the redistricting issue) win, when our system is designed such that the majority of votes should win. Whether I approve of the effort they blocked is insignificant to the fact of how they achieved their ends. (In my opinion, of course.)
jeffharrison wrote:
Your "quote", "Red meat is not bad for you, fuzzy green meat is bad for you," while clever sounding, is perhaps misleading.
Almost anything in my signature will be there solely for it's comical value. The quote I picked was better than the alternative at the time "Nuke the gay baby whales".
That one, while funny, is not something I'd use in a signature. But fuzzy green meat....
Here's the play-by-play on how it went down.
Someone in Hollywood has probably optioned it by now.
A little bit to sample, with the link at the end:
Catch Us If You Can
Scrat -- Don't forget the fugitives were protesting against really dirty tactics on the part of their opposition. If you care to take a moment to defend Mr. DeLay, it would be interesting to read your take. Was his behavior okay? And how about the Reps who absented themselves so as to avoid voting on campaign finance reform? Was that different somehow? Are we going to selectively punish the out-of-power party? Or when the in-power party plays dirty, do they get their knuckles rapped too? When is civil disobedience "permitted"?
In general, I think it's worth noting the extent to which the Republican follow-up to the Dems' departure was utterly counterproductive. It looks as though the governor is disgusted and will most likely not present the bill again. Certainly the press coverage and the applause (from both sides, the papers note) for the Dems' courage and humor has done great good for Democrats across the country. Speaker Craddick's (and "Hammer" DeLay's) miscalculations and attempted misuse of federal agents may not only have backfired but may be causing a rift within the Rep party (note the applause even Texas Rep legislators gave to the Dems when they reentered the chamber last Friday). Then, too, a coupla Texas Rangers are lookin' like idiots -- not a bad thing at all. Embarrassment and a solid humbling probably does imperious law givers and law enforcers a little good now and then... !
WHY IS THIS DAMNED SITE SO SLOW LATELY? I'VE HAD NOTHING BUT TROUBLE WITH IT ALL DAY! DOES ANYONE KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION? I'VE JUST LOST THE MESSAGE I SPENT THE LAST HALF HOUR WRITING! VERY ANNOYING.
Now, in a calmer tone of voice...............
I have finally managed to read everything here. You guys have been very busy. And it's all interesting.
The most interesting point to me is the one about the function of process. The attempt to find absolute truth in a set of rules, divorced from considerations of function, is a vain pursuit. Literal interpretation of anything, (concrete thinking) is a symptom of mental illness. At the least it is an attempt to avoid facing the uncontrollability of much of human reality (which is neurotic, and we're all a bit neurotic). But other than this, it can range in severity from neurological deficiency, or damage to paranoia or outright psychosis. The complications of human living are such that sometimes one must choose from among bad or less than optimum choices. This is the human condition.
The very best, most effective lie is one which makes use of the truth. It is possible and preferable, really from the point of view of lying efficiency, to lie by telling the truth.
I'm very proud of the Democrats in Texas for their bravery. And I'm still laughing at the humor in it. I'm very grateful for their willingness to make a difficult but necessary decision.
Well said, Lola. I feel that the Dems were in a corner where they had no real choice. They did what was necessary to address the turn of events.
Well said, Lola. Particularly about concrete thinking. The supporters of the right (and extremists) often intend it as a rhetorical trap -- failing to see that they are in the trap themselves.
We need to watch the Republicans, to see how "creative" they get, now in power. We already have Ashcroft and Homeland Security and Patriot Acts I and II (soon to be debuted in YOUR HOME!), and the Texas GOPers are madder'n'wet hens.
When the Texas Lege reconvenes, I look for the Dems to be ambushed and handcuffed to their desks by the Texas Rangers under orders from the Speaker. They might even be gagged.
Then, and ONLY then, can the "business of THE PEOPLE" (read: what Tom DeLay wants) be conducted.
Quote:The Texas Democratic legislators are back home after leaving their terrorist cell in a Holiday Inn in Ardmore, Okla., and declaring victory in this round of the battle over redistricting.
The heavy use of military metaphors and tactics in American politics hit ground zero last week when someone (an overly zealous member of the Texas Department of Public Safety or else a political thug controlled by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, take your pick) contacted the part of the Department of Homeland Security that searches for terrorists to track a plane carrying the missing legislators.
Texas Democratic Congressmen Martin Frost and Lloyd Doggett saw DeLay, the Hammer himself, behind this transgression.
"Not since Richard Nixon and Watergate 30 years ago has anyone tried to use law enforcement for domestic political purposes," Rep. Frost said. "This is an abuse of criminal and terrorist fighting resources of the U.S. government for a domestic political matterÂ…There should be a complete investigation."
Sixteen Democratic members and Sen. Joe Lieberman, ranking Democratic on the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, in fact, asked Tom Ridge for one; Ridge, in turn, appointed his acting Inspector General to lead the probe. The problem is that the acting IG turns out to be Clark Kent Ervin, a Houston Republican and former assistant to Texas senator and ex-Texas Attorney General John Cornyn, which opens the agency to further charges of political game-playing.
Officials at the Department of Homeland Security told CBS News they were outraged that they were called into the political search, but skeptical Democrats are not convinced. The line between politics and privacy, between safety of citizens and infringing on civil liberties is one that is gaining much attention in Democratic circles and in communities around the country. (emphasis PDiddie's) The Texas case gave it new prominence.
The American Civil Liberties Union is running a campaign to get local communities around the country to pass resolutions expressing concern over the 2001 Patriot Act and the potential for the government to tread on civil liberties in its zeal to combat terrorism.
So far, 107 communities representing about 11.3 million Americans have passed versions of these resolutions. The state legislature in Hawaii was the first statewide body to pass a joint resolution that instructed law enforcement to "uphold the human rights, civil right liberties and constitutional protections of Hawaii people," and called on the Hawaii congressional delegation to "work to repeal sections of the USA Patriot Act."
Texas Two-Step
Let's have some conservatives check in on the issues raised in the above; specifically the vanishing civil liberties, the abuse of authority, so on and on, please. (I think I can safely predict how those of us to the left of center will feel...)
PD - I think the author here lays it on a little thick, but then I've been accused of doing so, so I won't quibble. :wink:
I tend to think the request to track the plane was a bone-headed stunt, and think the system worked, because it was IGNORED. No harm, no foul. They did not attempt to track the plane. No civil liberties were damaged or even dented.
There's my take. I'll be ducking behind a flameproof shield to await replies.
Thanks for your input, Scrat.
Please keep in mind in the future that misuse of federal resources is a crime.
Intentionally failing to make quorum on a clearly partisan redistricting bill is not.
FORT WORTH, Texas, May 21 (UPI) -- Texas' top law enforcement agency destroyed records of its search for 51 maverick Democrats a day before the rebels ended a 4-day boycott that killed a Republican-backed redistricting bill, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram reported Wednesday.
The search for the rebel House Democrats is the focus of state and federal investigations because of allegations by Democrats that home security and law enforcement resources might have been abused. The Democrats holed up in an Ardmore, Okla., motel until the redistricting bill died.
A May 14 message obtained by the Star-Telegram through the Texas Open Records Act stated: "Any notes, correspondence, photos, etc. that were obtained pursuant to the absconded House of Representatives members shall be destroyed immediately. No copies are to be kept."
Tom Vinger, a spokesman for the Department of Public Safety, told the newspaper the search was complete and there was no reason to retain the records because it was not a criminal investigation. Asked if they were destroyed, he said, "To the best of my knowledge, yeah."
House Speaker Tom Craddick, R-Midland, ordered the DPS to find the absent Democrats and return them to the house so there would be a quorum, which was allowed under house rules. The Democrats were in Oklahoma by then, however, out of the jurisdiction of the Texas troopers.
Texas Democrats in Congress asked for an investigation because they said a federal home security agency was used for partisan state political purposes. The DPS contacted the Air and Marine Interdiction Coordinator Center for help in tracking the plane of state Rep. Pete Laney, D-Hale Center, one of the maverick Democrats and a former house speaker.
The Riverside, Calif.-based center, a division of the Homeland Security Department, said last week that it became involved when it received a call from the DPS indicating that Laney's plane might have gone down. The agency could not find the plane, which was later located at the Ardmore airport.
PDiddie wrote:Please keep in mind in the future that misuse of federal resources is a crime.
And the person who tried to do so should be held to account with whatever penalty is called for when that crime is committed.
Seems pretty stupid of them to destroy the records, and seems pretty brash of the Dems to be asking for an investigation.
By the way, in a less serious vein I'd like to offer the following...
In researching this issue (reading over the rules for the Texas legislature) I hit upon a tactic the Republicans might have used to turn this thing to their benefit.
The rules allow for the waiving of the need for a quorum if an "attack" has been declared. They do not define what constitutes an attack, but state that if an attack has occurred, the need for quorum can be suspended and only a majority of the votes present is needed to pass legislation.
While I realize this wouldn't fly, I couldn't help thinking it might have been interesting if the Republicans had, upon finding their Democrat peers missing without any explanation, declared that foul play (read: terrorism)must have been involved and that such constituted an attack upon the state. They could then have suspended the quorum requirement and passed any damn thing they wanted.
