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Corruption as an issue in the 2006 US elections

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 08:06 pm
Advocate wrote:
A President Gore would have heeded the very strong warnings about the possible attacks by airplane. Bush was oblivious to all warnings of terrorism, as well as the terrorism action plan left for Bush by Clinton. I think that 9/11 would have been prevented.

Bush was too busy planning an invasion of Iraq. Moreover, the planning began before he even won the first election.


Do you really believe that?

REmember,Clinton AND Gore allowed the terrorists to train for the attack during their admin.
They allowed the terrorists to take flight training during their admin,and they allowed the terrorists to make practice runs during their admin.

How can you,with a straight face,say that Gore would have prevented it?
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 10:01 am
What you are saying doesn't match up with the report of othe 9/11 Commission.

During Bush's first term, FBI agents were urging action regarding the Arabs learning to fly airliners. The agents were ignored.
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 03:26 pm
Advocate wrote:
What you are saying doesn't match up with the report of othe 9/11 Commission.

During Bush's first term, FBI agents were urging action regarding the Arabs learning to fly airliners. The agents were ignored.


Advocate,

Your bias is showing. Lack of communication with FBI was not a Bush-only fault. The Clinton administration ignored the FBI also.

9-11 Commission Report, pg 376 wrote:
Responsibility for domestic intelligence gathering on terrorism was vested solely in the FBI, yet during almost all of the Clinton administration the relationship between the FBI Director and the President was nearly nonexistent. The FBI Director would not communicate directly with the President. His key personnel shared very little information with the National Security Council and the rest of the national security community. As a consequence, one of the critical working relationships in the counterterrorism effort was broken.


In fact, pg 101 of the same report stresses that FBI warnings to the FAA in both 1998 (Clinton's term) and 2001 (Bush's term) were ignored. In particular the report chastises Jane Garvey, Clinton's appointee,for neglecting her own intelligence gathering unit.

Quote:
For example, information on the FBI's effort in 1998 to assess the potential use of flight training by terrorists and the Phoenix electronic communication of 2001 warning of radical Middle Easterners attending flight school were not passed to FAA headquarters. Several top FAA intelligence officials called the domestic threat picture a serious blind spot.

Moreover, the FAA's intelligence unit did not receive much attention from the agency's leadership. Neither Administrator Jane Garvey nor her deputy routinely reviewed daily intelligence, and what they did see was screened for them. She was unaware of a great amount of hijacking threat information from her own intelligence unit, which, in turn, was not deeply involved in the agency's policymaking process. Historically, decisive security action took place only after a disaster had occurred or a specific plot had been discovered.
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plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 08:24 am
slkshock7 -- And your bias is hidden?
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 01:01 pm
The fact of the matter is that 9/11 occurred during the Bush watch, at which time the relevant agencies were headed by Bush appointees.

I feel that 9/11 would have been avoided during a Gore presidency.
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 01:55 pm
plainoldme wrote:
slkshock7 -- And your bias is hidden?


Probably not very well... Smile but at least I'm willing to admit some faults on the Bush side...
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 02:19 pm
Advocate wrote:
The fact of the matter is that 9/11 occurred during the Bush watch, at which time the relevant agencies were headed by Bush appointees.

I feel that 9/11 would have been avoided during a Gore presidency.


Because he did so much to stop while he was VP the previous 8 years?

I had better add a disclaimer for the sarcastic impaired...

Gore did nothing as VP to discourage terrorists or terrorist attacks for 8 years, why would you think he would suddenly start as President?
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 02:21 pm
Advocate wrote:
The fact of the matter is that 9/11 occurred during the Bush watch, at which time the relevant agencies were headed by Bush appointees.

I feel that 9/11 would have been avoided during a Gore presidency.


I strongly disagree....Al Queada plans were set in motion long before 9/11...would've happened no matter who was President. Al Queda attacks on African Embassies, USS Cole, and the first attack on WTC occurred on Clinton watch. Why do you blame Bush for failing to prevent attacks on his watch, but not Gore and Clinton during their watch?
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 09:03 am
Bush received particularly strong warnings from Richard Clarke and others that bin-Laden had resolved to attack the USA in 2001, and that he might use commercial planes. Bush resolutely ignored this, probably because of his focus on an invading Iraq. Clarke and O'Neill say this in their books.

Al Gore would not have been interested in invading Iraq, and would have acted on the warnings about bin-Laden.

It is so tiresome that the right has to somehow drag Clinton and others into the explanations for Bush failures. I guess they are not big enough to take responsibility.
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 11:12 am
Advocate wrote:
Bush received particularly strong warnings from Richard Clarke and others that bin-Laden had resolved to attack the USA in 2001, and that he might use commercial planes. Bush resolutely ignored this, probably because of his focus on an invading Iraq. Clarke and O'Neill say this in their books.

Al Gore would not have been interested in invading Iraq, and would have acted on the warnings about bin-Laden.

It is so tiresome that the right has to somehow drag Clinton and others into the explanations for Bush failures. I guess they are not big enough to take responsibility.


Of course, Clarke and O'Neill had prescient insight into Bush's motives, thought processes and priorities prior to 9-11. Rolling Eyes I'm sure you have better evidence to support this thesis than a couple of books written to make lots of money for their authors. If not, suggest we wait a few years for Bush's memoirs which I'm fairly certain will dispute the O'Neill and Clarke accounts.

And it was you that offered wild speculations about Gore's actions in comparison to Bush's. But I happen to agree with you...if Gore had been in office, he would have pitched a few more tomahawk missiles at tents in Afghanistan, and pleaded (probably unsuccessfully) for UN economic sanctions on the Taliban. In fact, he may have gone so far as to concede our Army over to the UN as part of a peace-keeping force for when the Taliban capitulated from those sanctions. As for Iraq, he'd still be playing around with the UN for more WMD inspections and stronger Resolutions against Saddam.

In other words, we'd be in exactly the same position as we were pre 9-11. With sworn enemies happily making (and probably executing) plans to kill more innocent Americans from their friendly terrorist haven while the US continued to be frustrated by UN inactivity and incompetence.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 11:34 am
I don't think anyone, even those in the White House, has disputed what Clarke and O'Neill are saying. Besides, what motive would they have for lying about something as monumental as this? Clarke has plenty of money, and O'Neill is a multimillionaire. The little made from such nonfiction books wouldn't enrich them. Do you actually doubt them?
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 12:09 pm
That they somehow knew Bush's state of mind and intentions at the time they were trying to emphasize the threat? Yes, I do doubt them...how can you not? My own attempts at reading people's minds have rarely been successful.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 12:34 pm
One doesn't have to be a mindreader. (It would be impossible to read that wretched mind.) Bush made many statements showing that he was oblivious to anything but invading Iraq. Condisleazy mentioned this to others at the time. There is a mountain of evidence that Bush didn't want to be distracted by terrorism threats.
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 01:50 pm
No, won't let you get away so easy....please give me some documented instances wherein Bush shows he was "oblivious to anything but invading Iraq" especially references that document such negligence was occurring while Clarke was urging emphasis on counter-terrorism (early 2001 time frame), as you contend. Same thing for Condoleeza...show me where she confirmed such a thing.

I can find nothing that says Bush was committed to invading Iraq prior to the spring of 2002, with final decision made around Jul. By that time, the Taliban in Afghanisatan was in complete disarray. Would be most appropriate at that time for a forward-thinking leader to consider his next steps in the global war on terror.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 03:16 pm
Bush would say: "Go find me a way [to invade Iraq]." It is conclusive from the attached that Bush was committed to an invasion long before 9/11.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml
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plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 04:05 pm
Bush is the Vanna White of politics, the spokesmodel as president. SHow me evidence that ever had a coherent thought, except, perhaps, getting back at Saddam for plotting against Daddy.
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 06:11 pm
Good try but no cigar....Your quote from O'Neill was from a 60-minute interview not the book itself. Furthermore, while the interview remarks were wildly batted around by liberals everywhere as "the smoking gun", they were wrong. O'Neill was trying to say that regime change in Iraq was discussed as a continuation of foreign policy begun in the Clinton Administration. O'Neill came out a few days later fighting the media's error...but of course, by then the myth had taken on a life of its own.

CNN wrote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill said Tuesday his account of the Bush administration's early discussions about a possible invasion of Iraq has been distorted by a "red meat frenzy."

The controversy began last week when excerpts were released from a book on the administration published Tuesday in which O'Neill suggests Iraq was the focus of President Bush's first National Security Council meeting.

That started what O'Neill described to NBC's "Today" show as a "red meat frenzy that's occurred when people didn't have anything except snippets."

"People are trying to make a case that I said the president was planning war in Iraq early in the administration," O'Neill said.

"Actually, there was a continuation of work that had been going on in the Clinton administration with the notion that there needed to be regime change in Iraq."



Source
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 06:21 pm
slkshock- Advocate is typical of the left wing. They see only what they wish to see and avoid all other evidence. Your quote about a "continuation" is correct, but I am almost certain that Avocate will not accept that evidence.

I go to other sources for the "continuation" thesis. Advocate won't accept these sources either. They do not fit his agenda.

Who was it, slkshock, who said, in a Dec. 1998 speech to the American People--

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear> We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs"

Of course, it was the leader of the Democratic Party, Bill Clinton.

This gives force to your quote about "continuation". slkshock.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 08:07 pm
advocate,
How can you say with such certainty what Al Gore would have done?

He was not elected,he did nothing during his term as VP to get the 9/11 plotters,so how do you know?

There is no way you can say with any certainty.
You can say what you HOPE would have happened,but thats all.
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jul, 2006 05:11 am
Bernard,
Thanks for your kind words...I agree that the left often seizes on half a story (like Advocate) that serves their purposes and ignores any contrary information. But conservatives are not immune to that fault either....that's why I like this forum. Gives me a chance to challenge my own thinking and make sure I'm not making that same error.
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