PARENTS BRINGING UP A SPOILED GENERATION!

Heeven wrote:

Methinks LordE and I were raised pretty similarly. Our family ate together at the table every evening when my Dad got home from work. My Mom prepared everything from scratch. I never saw a frozen packet of food until I left school. She also had a vegetable garden and grew cabbage, lettuce, carrots, among other things so it was normal to go out to the garden and pull up a lettuce to wash for a salad with dinner. Soda/Pop, biscuits (cookies) and cakes were purchased for special occasions, like when visitors came around and we scarfed them down like there was no tomorrow because that wasn't a daily thing. While we grumbled as kids about having to 'set the table', mash the potatoes, wash and dry the dishes afterwards, I see now that we created a very close family bond that years later my friends and acquaintances comment on. We talked about everything under the sun at the dinner table. I never knew I was getting an education as well as a good meal.quote]

If it wasn't for the fact that I grew up on a different continent, I would swear we were in the same household as children. I was brought up the same way. When it was time to eat, the television went off. In fact, it wasn't until after my brother and I both moved out of the house that my parents finally changed this rule.

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I agree with you, LordE.

Some of my son's friends think I'm a "strict" parent. Compared to some of them, I am. I decide what & when my son will eat, and I make his friends go home at what I consider reasonable hours. (In time for dinner unless they're eating with us.) My son has a definite bedtime on school nights, and he has to finish his homework before he can play with his friends. My husband and I are pretty accommodating and take them lots of fun places, but we do not tolerate "back-talk." If anybody starts that with us, everybody goes home. Fun's over.

If I allowed my son to eat whatever and whenever he wanted, he'd eat nothing but junk food. He'd never choose to drink milk if anything else was available. And he'd be snacking all day. If we allowed him to stay up as long as he liked, he'd watch SpongeBob or play on his computer every night until midnight. He'd never get enough rest to do well at school.

Kids need boundaries, especially when they're young. You have to teach them how to be self-disciplined. It doesn't come naturally. When they are able to consistently make responsible choices for themselves, then they're old enough to move out. Until then, it's our job as parents to set the limits.

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I was raised the same way as well, right down to the vegetable garden and mashing the potatoes. Dessert was only for holidays, although we did get an allowance that I tended to spend on candy bars.

My children are more spoiled than I was, but not nearly as spoiled as most of their peers.

An interesting side note: my oldest daughter has always been a material girl, coveting everything her friends had and wanting 'things' just to have them. She started working a part-time job in December and, all of a sudden, has a new respect for money and saving. She's stopped asking me to buy things for her and has added a couple hundred dollars to her savings since the beginning of the year. She only works Saturdays and takes home about $25.00/week but it's hard-earned and isn't being blown on junk. I never thought I'd see this day, but I'm happy that she's developing a sense of pride and value in her efforts.

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I was really surprised when Badboys initial post was made so light of.

Isn't that a large part of what raising productive members of society is all about? Teaching them that they can't go off into the world and satisfy whatever whim hits them at that moment?

Getting a child to sit down to dinner, or telling them when it's time to go to bed, when you know as an adult they are ready for rest (I've seen many children who have no idea when they've become overtired and just get cranky and screamlook in any supermarket on Saturday) can hardly be compared to child abuse.

Having children eat when the rest of the group is eating, even if they claim "I'm not hungry" won't make them fat. It's the snacking that's done IN ADDITION to these meals. It's the sitting in front of the TV or computer because they aren't told "go outside and play" As a matter of fact, they wouldn't be hungry at mealtimes if they'd been snacking all after noon. I'm sure every one of us has been told "Don't eat that, it'll spoil your dinner."

Sure kids need computers today..for school. Not to sit in front of for hours so they can play.if anyone claims that kids are just soaking up the knowledge of the world and need all the time some of them spend.I'll say they are full of itWe know they're spending a lot of their time downloading tunes, playing games, looking for naked people and coming on to A2K.

Teaching the skills of living within a group is what parents do.isn't it?
We don't go to work and eat or leave or take a nap whenever it's convenient, not just because it would get someone pissed off at us, but because we know we are working with a group, and if we do anything we want, we're hindering the work of everyone.

Honestly, I have no problem at all in what badboy said.
You know what? There ARE an awful lot of spoiled kids out there today.

I thought the cardinal rule of parenting was to lovingly give your children guidelines so they'll be able to function in society.

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In my house, where Mr. B works until 7 PM on most nights we can either chose to eat dinner together or have Mo go to bed at a reasonable hour.

Right now Mo is on a perfect go to sleep/wake up schedule for starting school and I don't want to ruin it. So what if we don't sit down to eat dinner together but he has a chance to play soccer or catch with his dad before he goes to bed? Sometimes we stay up late because we're busy doing something, sometimes we go to bed early because we're tired.

In what way does not having a routine "spoil" Mo or any other kid?

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We have an identical scheduling conflict. If we wait for my husband, the kids don't get to bed until 9, otherwise they're in bed by 8. We have a semblance of a routine, but it isn't very strict. Another problem is that we both work, so homemade from scratch meals only happen about twice a week. I used to try really hard to do the sit down dinner routine but it was just not practical.

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He DOES have a routine though, Boomer. He goes to bed at a regular time. He is "on a perfect go to sleep/wake up schedule for starting school".

It isn't necessary to sit down together, and you are doing the right thing in ensuring that Mo gets sufficient sleep.
My parents were both shift workers (Fireman and Nurse) so it was pretty rare to find both of them sitting down together at the table, including Christmas day.

It would be different if you let Mo stay up to see his dad and then ignore him for another hour or so while he played games whilst snacking junk.
THAT is the scenario this head teacher is trying to get across in his speech.

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boomerang wrote:

In my house, where Mr. B works until 7 PM on most nights we can either chose to eat dinner together or have Mo go to bed at a reasonable hour.

Right now Mo is on a perfect go to sleep/wake up schedule for starting school and I don't want to ruin it. So what if we don't sit down to eat dinner together but he has a chance to play soccer or catch with his dad before he goes to bed? Sometimes we stay up late because we're busy doing something, sometimes we go to bed early because we're tired.

In what way does not having a routine "spoil" Mo or any other kid?

All due respect boom, that's not at all what I (& I feel safe to say the last few posters) were saying. You're nit picking...

Of course if someone doesn't get home until past an hour that would be reasonable for children to be expected to wait, you'd sit down and eat with them.

You say Mo has a good routine going, but sometimes stays up later. Who doesn't?

No one's saying times and such have to be written in stone. That's another part of becoming a productive memeber of society, learning flexibility.

Apparantly he does have a routine of some sort

However, the equating rules with child abuse is ridiculous.

Oh, just remember an example

A couple of years ago we went to my step-daughters wedding. Her half brother and sister are twins, I think they were around 12 or 13, old enough to be functioning in a social setting. The girl is fine, but the boy is a royal pain in the ass.

From what I can figure out, he's been allowed to just totally do what he damn well pleases as far as food and activities for as long as he can remember, and brother does it show.

Apparantly, there are 3 things in the world he will eat, and if it isn't available, he will sit and sulk. The day before the wedding, there was a luncheon, and what he would eat wasn't available. He actually pulled out some kind of a video game thingie IN THE RESTAURANT and started playing, completely ignoring the rest of the world.
The next day, at the wedding, with about 100 guests, again, he could get what he wanted to eat, and they actually ORDERED A PIZZA for him!!!! If you're not completely appalled by this, there's no hope for the world.

Later, after dinner, when the mingling and dancing had begun, I found my husband sitting at a table talking with some old friends. I sat down next to him and joined inabout 10 minutes later, there's a tap on my shoulder and it's the kid, with another boy who had come as his guest. He said to me "You're sitting in my chair." I gave him the look every woman knows that shrivels gonads. It worked on him especially well, since it was his first time, and he didn't yet have any control over how deeply his balls could be sucked into his body.

This is the type of routines I'm talking aboutlearning you eat what others are eating, and don't tap a grown woman on her shoulder at a wedding unless you're going to ask her to dance.

Now, how do you supposed all this behavior began? He was allowed to decide for himself what, when how.

He's going to have a lot more nut shrinking experiences, me thinks.

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I probably disagree with about 90% of your post, MMS.

If children ate when they wanted too, they would probably never sit down with the rest of the family and have a proper meal. This means that they will never learn table manners or take part in family conversation, away from the TV/Computer.

Excuse me Lord E, but since you felt the need to render my post useless, let me explain in greater detail my feelings on such passages.

No where did I say: " A child shouldn't sit down with the family."

What I said was, " Children will eat when they are hungry."

Therefore meaning, you can not force feed a child.

Yes, you can teach them to sit down with the rest of the family and enjoy the dinner, but if they are not hungry, they will not eat, and there is no need in making them eat for your satisfaction.

What are you gaining out of it?

Teaching children to eat...when they are not hungry, which results in bad eating habits later on. And I stand by that statement.

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If they were allowed to choose their own sleep times, they would probably be up until all hours, and never achieve a regular sleep pattern. This does not bode well for when they are expected to stay alert during the school day, and more importantly, when they are at work in later life.

Now....on that point, I was put to bed to take a nap as a child, lying there with my eyes open for hours on end, till a nap was taken.

What good did that do for me? Not one damned thing.

I was not talking about sleep at night in general, but again, you weren't the one writing the post. I was. I should have been more to the point.

Children will rest when they are tired.

Once my boys were born, yes...they slept most of the day, most of the night.

When they were up, So was I....but as they got older I never did set a nap time for my children, therefore....they slept at night. With them sleeping all night my main goal!

If they needed a nap during the daytime, I saw to it that they were given one, where we as a family would and could get along. Nothing like a sleepy kid with a nasty disposition.

BUT, as a general rule of thumb, naps were not on our schedule. If they didn't sleep during the day, they would SLEEP at night.

THEN WE AS A FAMILY were able to survive.

My life didn't evolve around the babe in training getting a two hour nap, so I could watch the soapies. We as a family were in the yard playing, digging holes in the dirt, and riding the four wheeler.

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I can't see how regulated meals at regular times can contribute to unhealthy eating habits. Personally, I would say that snacking when they felt like it would probably also involve the wrong type of foods, and they would end up with terrible weight/health problems.

Speaking from a woman's perspective that has suffered through wieght problems, still fighting this battle and will be my entire life, due a mother that thought I HAD TO EAT, whether I was hungry or not. I can lay claim to that fact! And so can many others that are in this forum.

No where did I say: " Regulated meals at regular times can contribute to unhealthy eating habits."

What I said was, "When a child is hungry, they will eat."

Therefore meaning: Why make a child eat when they aren't hungry?

They will eat...when they want to eat. They are not stupid...they will not go days without eating. Sure..it may be inconvenient for us parents to have to go that extra step to reheat supper, or fix a later breakfast, but why did we have kids to begin with, if they were to live by our schedule?

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....and as far as ADHD children are concerned, in my school there were over 1000 pupils of all ability ranges. I don't remember any of them having ADHD. A few were badly behaved, but I believe that this was because they were naturally naughty and mischevious. None of us "bounced off walls" due to being hyperactive.

That was a joke....Lord E. Get your panties out of a wad.

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Maybe it's because we all had boundaries set, and a routine to live by.
Whatever we were doing, if it was school the following day, we would be in bed by a certain deadline. We knew when dinner was being served, and had to wait. We knew that when we were at school, we had to behave ourselves or there were unpleasant consequences.

I was raised up just as you were Lord E. I had boundaries which I pushed on occasions, I knew where I was sopposed to be and when. I had a routine. We eat supper as a family...also.

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I never equated rules with child abuse - ever. If rules are abusive someone had better call CPS and rescue Mo.

Bad boys post said letting kids decide when to eat and when to go to bed was creating a generation of spoiled children. If a kid can't decide when he's hungry or tired then I certainly wouldn't trust him with...... anything, I guess.

People were wondering why we were joking about the post and that's why - I think the initial post is downright laughable.

What you are talking about, I think, is a child who has been overindulged and therefore spoiled. That is quite a bit different than what Badboy posted.

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Forcing kids to eat when they are not hungry, or feeding them when they are bored will, again, destroy their sense of hunger. This teaches them to ignore being hungry or being full. It is common for all parents to use statements like "you will not leave the table until you finish what is on your plate." Realistically, arguing about eating everything on a child's plate is ridiculous and unnecessary. Fighting over meals creates more harm than good by having a central issue focus on eating. Trust me, children do eat when they are hungry.

In conjunction, most children need structure. It is up to parents to teach their kids that normal eating consists of three well-balanced meals a day and two healthy snacks. Meals should be around the same time every day. There should be an assortment of snacks available and children should be able to have or not have their snacks based on hunger and need. Unless your child has a diagnosed biological disorder that effects their sense of hunger or ability to control how much they eat, you should essentially let them eat as much or as little as they like.

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boomerang wrote:

I never equated rules with child abuse - ever. If rules are abusive someone had better call CPS and rescue Mo.

Bad boys post said letting kids decide when to eat and when to go to bed was creating a generation of spoiled children. If a kid can't decide when he's hungry or tired then I certainly wouldn't trust him with...... anything, I guess.

People were wondering why we were joking about the post and that's why - I think the initial post is downright laughable.

What you are talking about, I think, is a child who has been overindulged and therefore spoiled. That is quite a bit different than what Badboy posted.

You're right boom, You didn't equate it, but other posts did...

The thing is, kids CAN'T always decide if they're tired, and I don't think they always do a good job with hunger either.

My step-daughther (the one who got married) once went on a vacation with us when she was 13. My husband admits he indulged her when she was young, since she was only 6 when he divorced her mother.

Anyway, it was a car trip, and a number of times either myself or her father would say....it's time to eat and there's some good restaurants coming up, and probably no more for more than 100 miles, which one do you want to eat at...?

I'm not hungry.

Well, if it was me alone, we would have stopped, but, since she wasnt' hungry, dad didn't want to "make" her sit through a meal watching us boring adults.

Except that.....5 to 10 miles past where we could eat a regular meal, we'd hear, "I'm hungry, can we stop" Her dad would want to immediately pull into the first place, regardless what it was becuase he just could stand seeing his daughter hungry.

Looking back, it wasn't her fault. #1, I think kids that age are programmed to say "no" to parents. #2, I really don't think she "felt" hungry at that second, but didn't have the life experience to tell her that once she stopped, ordered and waited, she would be.

However, I hate to say this, but this was the cause of one of the ugliest fight I ever had with my darling. Trying to put a man position where in his mind it was having to choose between his wife and his daughter. Wanting to please someone who he didn't get to see often was overriding the logic that we were the ones driving, making the decisions of the trip and spending the money. On the other hand was a wife/stepmother who had no maternal feelings toward someone who was keeping us from eating at nice places and making us go through yet another drive through.

She never knew we fought over this, she was just being a brain dead barely teenager.

When it was decided we would stop when the adults decided to, she couldn't have cared less either way.

About the eating/timing.kids on their own don't know that dinner will be ready, or delivered in an hour. Because they're, well, kids. They need to be told to wait. Not, starve, but you can tell when a snack is really needed or there's going to be fainting. I suppose all of these things, waiting for a meal, doing work before play, doing something that isn't of your choosing, is all part of learning delayed gratification.

A point further.I don't really think it's the kids TODAY that are necessarily being spoiled in this way.

Look around you. I've stood in line what I considered a reasonable amount of time, having people, adults, behind or in front of me practically dying because they were having to (shudder) WAIT. Oh my God, what could be worse, actually having something take 1 or 5 minutes longer than you would like it to. After all, I'm ENTITLED, I DESERVE to be accommodated immediately. No one should expect me to WAIT. Yet, these are the very people that, when it's FINALLY their turn, hem and haw and take forever to express their needs, send back whatever it is because it isn't what they WANTED, blissfully ignoring the fact that someone else is now having angina over everything taking so LONG, and having to call someone on their cell phone to tell them how unhappy they are.

In my opinion, these are the same people who weren't told, "this is what dinner is, eat, or wait until the next meal" My mother worked full time too. Had five kids and a husband. She cooked for him and hopefully we liked it too. We got our choice of dinner on our birthdays. No, it wasn't like we only got to eat what we wanted on that one day a yearit was more like some meals you really likedothers were ok because the option was waiting until the next mealshe worked full time and that wasn't running a kitchen.

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makemeshiver33 wrote:

By allowing your children to eat when they want too, or fall asleep when they are ready, doesn't neccasarily render a spoiled child. A child will rest when they need too, and eat when they are hungry.

To make them do so, is contributing to future bad eating habits and wieght problems. And by making child "rest"..when they aren't ready, just turns them into wild children with to much built up energy...

:wink: Damn, I think thats where parents are then turned in for child abuse for beating the hell out of the ADHD child for bouncing off the walls.

Its when those children tell the parent: What & When & Where & How...that you might portray them to be spoiled, and their parents idiots.

OK MMS, let's look at the post that I "rendered useless" (I actually said that I disagreed with it, it is commonly called having an opinion) and see what all the fuss is about.

1. "By allowing your children to eat when they want too, or fall asleep when they are ready, doesn't neccasarily render a spoiled child." -
I agree. Then again, it is more likely that you will end up with a little darling that wants to play by his or her own rules.

2. "A child will rest when they need too, and eat when they are hungry."

I disagree.

Eating.......Put a four pound block of chocolate in the fridge for a child to eat when he/she chooses to eat it, and I bet you a pound to a penny that it will be gone before you can say "hang on, I'll get the sick bowl".
A child that is allowed to snack as and when they want, will carry on with this habit that they have "learnt" and probably end up being obese and/or unhealthy by the age of 50.
Unless, of course, the snacks on offer consist of fruit, nuts and other healthy delicacies.......but the chances of that happening are pretty slim, no?

Sleeping.....Let a child choose their own sleeping times, and they will try to stay up for as long as possible, to the point of becoming overtired. Remember, we are discussing an age range that goes to school (4/5 to 16+). Obviously, little ones are more in need of a nap, and adjustments in routine should be made to accomodate this. Nobody is talking about taping open the eyes of a three year old. What we are discussing is the fact that some parents are allowing their kids to stay up into the wee small hours, during the school week.

3. ...."To make them do so [eating] , is contributing to future bad eating habits and wieght problems."

I disagree.

Nobody is talking about force feeding anyone at the dinner table.

If a child comes to the table hungry, there should be no problem in getting them to clear their plate, unless brussell sprouts are involved.
If a child has been "choosing" to bung their face full of chips, choccie and coke for the preceeding four hours, he/she will probably pick at a potato and leave the table after two minutes, in order to finish their computer game.
.......or manage to fit in the cooked dinner AS WELL.

4. " And by making child "rest"..when they aren't ready, just turns them into wild children with to much built up energy...

Strongly disagree. If a child has a regular bedtime, non negotiable except for extra special occasions, he/she will accept it and it will become the routine.
As far as the "wild child" bit is concerned, do you mean that a child, as a result of adequate sleep, may be fully revitalised and full of energy? That they feel like running round the playground or taking part in sport with their friends?
Isn't that what they're supposed to be like? As opposed to moping about and yawning all over the place?

.and as far as the ADHD thing is concerned, MMS, I knew you were joking. You obviously didn't get the sarcasm of my reply though.
I will be more specific. ADHD is now, what we used to call naughty and mischevious. It's just, for some strange reason, there are a lot more "naughty and mischevious" kids today.
Why IS that, do you think?

From birth, kids will push and push, until they find the boundary.

Sometimes the boundary doesn't exist. That's when the trouble starts for teachers.

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I don't think anyone here thinks that children should grow up without limits or should be allowed to choose when to eat and sleep.

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I hope no Freeduck (we're having lovely weather these days, aren't we!) but I look at alot of the young people today that i come in contact with and how they relate to their parents and elders and it seems like they have been brought up without limits. Being allowed to choose when to eat and sleep is just the tip of the iceberg.

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Maybe I'm just not in contact with very many kids besides my own (who are perfect angels, of course :wink:) and my brother's. So, while I've certainly witnessed public brattiness, I don't know if this is a new or pervasive phenomenon.

I can remember in my day people said tv would make my generation into retards with no social skills. And just look at us now... oh, uh, nevermind. Drool.

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I'd say it skipped a generation but, who raised them?

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Lots here, I'll just respond to the choosing when to eat thing...

We're in some sort of in-between place. We DO have a block of chocolate (or its equivalent) in the fridge, AND sozlet is allowed to get whatever food she wants. She needs to ask before having dessert-type food, but otherwise she's given pretty much free reign. Just did that after school, for example. Guess what she got for herself?

An apple, a piece of string cheese, and some grape juice.

That's very typical. She's good at noting when she's hungry, having something appropriate, and asking if she's not sure it'd be OK. There is that, of course -- her freedom is not complete.

This is not to say that a child who has always eaten what was put in front of him or her and followed the rules wouldn't gobble that chocolate if suddenly given the choice -- but the suddenly part is exactly the point. Because one day, these kids ARE going to have a choice, and the more knowledge they have of how to make the right choices ("I feel good after I have an apple but I feel yucky after I have a bag of potato chips") and the more confidence they have that they'll be able to make the right choices, the better.

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Wanted to add about kids knowing when they're hungry, that they live in the now -- they know whether they are or are not hungry at this moment, but they are terrible about predicting (anything). So those are kinds of different issues.

And I think everyone here has seen me talking about parenting enough to know this, but for the record, I do think there are plenty of terrible parents out there and that a lack of boundaries/ consistency is a common problem that often has disturbing consequences. I just agree that badboy's initial post states things way too broadly.

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Soz, it sounds like you have a sensible offspring there. Is this because of your influence? I think so, somehow.

If a child has no guidance at all, due to the type of parents that are the "small minority" as mentioned in the speech, I am afraid that the food chosen would probably make you shudder.

My wife, as one of her first tasks, removed all the fizzy drinks from the school shop when she arrived. No Coke, no sugary crap, nothing. She replaced them with fruit juices and small bottles of mineral water.

A certain section of the parents (yes....parents) went MAD!

She told them to like it or lump it, and is now working on the lunch menus.

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PARENTS BRINGING UP A SPOILED GENERATION!

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