6
   

Immigration and Racism in Britain and USA

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 08:30 am
The Economist also takes a sceptical view this week. The new information in this for me: that "a quarter of young Muslim Frenchwomen are married to non-Muslim men".

See:

Quote:
An editorial in the Economist argues that, contrary to fears on both sides of the Atlantic, integrating Muslims can be done. The Economist editorial also takes the position that ideas like Arabist scholar Bernard Lewis, and his warning of an Islamic Europe, a "Eurabia," looks to be more "scaremongering" than anything else.

    Is Eurabia really something to worry about? ... Muslims will account for no more than a tenth of west Europe's population by 2025. Besides, Europe's Muslims are not homogenous. Britain's mainly South Asian Muslims have far less in common with France's North African migrants or Germany's Turks than they do with other Britons.
The Economist also writes that there the "most dangerous myth is the idea that there is one sure-fire answer when it comes to assimilating Europe's Muslims." In Europe, cases of intergrationism (the French ban on head scarves) or on multi-culturalism (British is "reining in" its Muslims schools) have not provided the answer. Nor does American's idea of a "melting pot."

    Yet amid all this hyperbole, two hard realities stand out. The first is the importance of jobs. In America, it is easy for a newcomer to get work and hard to claim welfare; in Europe the opposite is true. Deregulating labour markets is a less emotive subject than head-scarves or cartoons, but it matters far more. Second, the future of Europe's Muslims, no less than that of America's Latinos, lies with the young. For every depressing statistic about integration - France's prisons hold nine times more young men with North African fathers than ones with French fathers - there are several reassuring ones: a quarter of young Muslim Frenchwomen are married to non-Muslim men; Muslims are flocking to British universities and even popping up in white bastions like the Tory party. In 50 years' time, Americans may be praising this generation of European Muslims for leading the enlightenment that Islam needed.

(Source: Christian Science Monitor)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 08:32 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Quote:
"We can only defeat it if we have people in the community who are going to stand up and not merely say 'you are wrong to kill people through terrorism... you're wrong in your view of the West, the whole sense of grievance, the ideology is wrong, is profoundly wrong'."

Well I've been calling it Islam, but as I dont wish to get in to trouble, I'll call it Ideology in future.

I've been calling it Muslim fundamentalism, Muslim extremism, or Islamism ... ie, a distinct ideology within Islam as overall religion ;-)
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 08:56 am
It might not even be that Steve.

It could be just inadequate people latching on to an ideology, any ideology, to feel an identity or even to feel alive. It happens all the time.
They run the agenda on the news. Exciting TV-you know.

The Awkward Squad if you like. Were any of the 7/7 bombers members of cricket or football teams or anything like that?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 09:07 am
nimh wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I think its far more significant that one in six Muslims in this country regard the 7/7 bombers as martyrs

One in eight, actually:

Quote:
The Populus poll, published in the Times, showed that 13 per cent of British Muslims believe that the perpetrators of last year's London suicide bombings should be regarded as 'martyrs.'

Some 150,000 Muslim adults, or 16 per cent of the Muslim community, believe that while the attacks were wrong, the 'cause was right.'


Well one in six or one in eight, its still a frighteningly high proportion

Quote:
LONDON, England (AP) -- One in six British Muslims believes the London Tube and bus bombers were motivated by a just cause, according to an opinion poll.


But this is a fair question

Quote:
That raises the question, if more than half of British Muslims want a harder line on extremism, and half even want a closer monitoring of what is being preached in mosques, how can one maintain that the problem of extremism is in Islam, itself?


To which I could give the flippant answer that the problem of extremism doesnt seem to be with the Church of England or the Catholics or the Rotarians. It is de facto within Islam. Alternatively one could ask what constitutes true Islam? Shia Sunni Wahhabi Sufi...All I know is the really dangerous types call themselves Muslim, in fact seem to regard themselves as purer and better Muslims than the law abiding majority because they are chosen to receive the blessing of Allah by waging jihad.

When you have a religion founded on a book which is deemed to be the final perfect and unchanged word of God, brooking no deviation, and that book is littered with examples of jihad then its very difficult to say that violence is not an intregal part of Islam.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 09:11 am
spendius wrote:
It might not even be that Steve.


It could be just inadequate people latching on to an ideology, any ideology, to feel an identity or even to feel alive. It happens all the time.
They run the agenda on the news. Exciting TV-you know.

The Awkward Squad if you like. Were any of the 7/7 bombers members of cricket or football teams or anything like that?
I believe they were mostly completely ordinary muslim working class lads from Leeds, liking football cricket and fish and chips until some radical islamist pumped their head full of sh1t. (Sh1t that I now know not to call I****)
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 10:56 am
Steve-

But what is it that makes a few so susceptible to the stuff coming off the fan. The way you look at it it should affect them all the same. It must be linked to some character flaw which probably manifests itself in other ways as well.

Who says they like cricket and football? Just words. Were they "joiners"?

They were being "different" I presume. I hope. People who want to be different show it. I know some brown skinned cricketers and footballers and they are just like me. Well roughly I mean. More like I used to be than I am now.

It just takes somebody trained to notice it in the schools. Ex Eton maybe.
Somebody who doesn't give the kids the benefit of the doubt all the time.
That's coming off a giant fan.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:06 am
One of the problems which one encounters with Islamic fundamentalism is the lack of a central doctrinal authority, and the lack of a hierarchical clergy. Imams are "leaders," based on the derivation of the word. However, the meaning of the term can vary both in usage and from one sect of Islam to another. Any leader of prayer in a mosque is entitled to the honorific "Imam," and the term can in fact be applied to any leader of prayer when two or more Muslims gather to pray. Although certainly no one is going to be able to sustain a claim to the honorific without a good knowledge of the Quran and the ability to read and write Arabic, there is otherwise no standard by which anyone can judge who is or is not entitle to describe himself as an Imam.

Futher complicating the issue is the use of the honorific Sheikh. This derives from the Arabic verb meaning to grow old, and can be as simple as old man, in the sense of a chief or village or tribal leader. But is is also applied as an honorific to those who assert themselves to be, or who are asserted by others to be Imams. There is a sort of silliness in that "Sheikh Imam" So-and-So could be translated as "Leader Leader"--but the point is that someone who has what might be termed dangerously radical notions could be esteemed an Imam, and given the honorific Sheikh by one community, and then impose himself on another community based upon credentials which ultimately rest only on the judgment of the congregation which orginally gave him the honorifics which he bears.

Therefore, the Muslim community lacks a means of reviewing the credentials of those who are purported to be, or purport themselves to be Imams. One of our members here, who has kept his head down since the incident, came into one of the threads announcing the death of al Zarqawi and referred to him as Sheikh, and a holy man. The fluidity of authority in the Islamic world both allows the extremist a "bully pulpit," and prevents the certification or falsification of any individuals credentials.

Recently, an Imam from Leicester in England, Riyadh ul Haq, who is given the honorific "Sheikh," was the subject accusations of inciting hatred, declined to appear in Canada. There had recently been an arrest of seventeen Muslim men and boys who were "suckered" in a sting operation to buy chemicals from which bombs could be made, and one of them had been the member of a campus group in Hamilton, Ontario, who had booked a hall for this Imam to speak. Thereafter, the Imam was invited to speak at a conference in Toronto, but Jewish groups and some Muslim groups objected, and asked the Federal immigration officials to prevent him from entering the country. He made life a little easier for Federal officials by declining to attend, and instead whill speak by a video feed. The story can be read here, with the caveat that this story is in The National Post, the extreme right-wing organ in Canada.

Some Canadian Muslims claimed that his previous remarks had been taken out of context and that he was being unfairly maligned. In an interview on CBC radio which i heard, he made the same charge. But other Muslims in Canada were among those who made such charges against them. How are we to know, and how is any honest Muslim to know, who to believe in such circumstances?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:08 am
McTag wrote:
You know George, sometime you talk a lot of sense. In fact, you almost always do. Respect.


Thank you kindly McTag. That, coming from an irascable, dour Scotsman such as yourself, is high praise indeed - though not fully merited, "sometimes" and "almost" being the operative words (I agree!).

The respect is mutual.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:20 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Francis, like Nimh, I've always thought of you as a decent man... but your behavior these last couple days is as childish as it is inexplicable.

Francis wrote:
I knew that already, clueless Nimh, when it comes to human emotions and behavior!

If you had a sense of pride you would not come playing the victim after you said you'd stay out of my way.
If you attacked me and refused to link to why, I assure you; I'd behave a damn sight worse than Nimh has.

Francis wrote:
As I stated before, you'd do every tricky thing in order to make your point.
Show us where. You've shown nothing to make such a charge, and many of us have read thousands of Nimh's posts without seeing what you are seeing.

....

Francis,

I believe OCCAM Bill made a great deal of sense in this post. There does seem to be a lack or proportion between what we can see of what Nimh wrote and your reactions to it. Moreover your reactions are more like mine or Setanta's to someone who disagrees with us - hot and ill-tempered - and not at all like the usually very restrained and rational character of your other posts. The aprupt change and lack of evident provocation makes it hard for me (and evidently OCCAM BILL, and perhaps Nimh too) to understand.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:33 am
I prefer that you do not drag my name into this--what you see as ill-temper would be better described as contempt.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:36 am
Laughing Laughing Laughing I guess you made my point!
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:41 am
A convenient "point" on your part then--there was no ill-temper in my last response, just a reasonable expression of my desire not to be drawn into your pettiness when addressing Francis.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:45 am
I was also giving this some thought, and wondered what precipitated this harsh exchange between Francis and nimh. It's so out of character for both of them, it confused me.

If it's about racial bigotry, I think both nimh and Francis know me to be one who has no tolerance nor patience for it. I would be the first to challenge anybody that posts anything resembling racial bigotry. It goes without saying, I'm very sensitive about this subject, and even misunderstood Timber in the past. As many have later informed me, I was in the wrong.

This situation seems to have grown into something most of us hate to see happening, and I needed to voice my unhappiness at what has become a great concern to many of us.

Like most others that know both of these gentlemen, I would like to see some happy resolution to this conflict. Please.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:46 am
Thanks for the info Setanta. Do they tend to be swots?

You can't help wonder though why they don't prefer to live under our nice humane governments which let them sob in the witness box when they've been caught defrauding the welfare rather than one which would flog their flesh off their bones.

It baffles me why anybody listens to the imams. Nobody ever listens to our vicars and priests except a few nutters who are easy to spot. If it wasn't for the dignity they can lend to certain key moments in our lives I can't see why we would keep them.

But anyway-it was a useful essay.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:46 am
I suppose we all consider our posts to be "reasonable expressions" of rational ideas. However many are not -- some are 'foolish things'.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:47 am
Having read Francis with enjoyment for a couple of years, when I first saw his remarks to nimh, I honestly thought someone had gotten into his A2K account.

It was so unlike him.

I guess sometimes, even the most polished, lovely people can sit on a tack, occasionally. Hoping for a relatively painless extraction.

Very Happy
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 11:57 am
Let them get on with it. It's good fun.

George and Setanta are warming up nicely. That might be even more fun.

Knock off with the Sunday-school teacher stuff. Bit of fur flying clears the air.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 12:02 pm
spendi, It's only bacause you have "experience." Wink
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 12:10 pm
spendius wrote:
Let them get on with it. It's good fun.

George and Setanta are warming up nicely. That might be even more fun.

Knock off with the Sunday-school teacher stuff. Bit of fur flying clears the air.


You ARE a trouble-maker!

Old Navy saying # 14 -- "Don't get in a fight with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it."
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 12:13 pm
Altogether a pathetic effort, George . . . but certainly not beneath your "dignity" . . .
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