Immigration and Racism in Britain and USA

Racism is a particularly fashionable sin in the contemporary coda of political correctitude. However, I believe we usually make too much out of it. Intolerance for "them" is a universal trait among humans, and we almost never rise fully above it. No matter whether the "them" refers to religious, class, national, or other reasons, the phenomenon is the same. Anytime we act as though one group of people or another has less intrinsic worth, by virtue of any characteristic, we are guilty of intolerance. I don't think that intolerance based on ideas of "race" (whatever that really means) or skin color is any better or worse than any other form of intolerance.

0 Replies

Nicely put george.

I was thinking about this...we have laws and general standards that view racist attacks as being somehow worse than identical attacks that have no racist involvement....I was thinking that, one day, we might see various forms of racism as being somewhat normal and even acceptable while intolerance, inequality and brutality is never acceptable whatever the reason.

For example, if a white supremacist skinhead kept a black slave locked in his basement in New York for two years he would no doubt be punished severely by a court. Would a black man who kept a white in the same way as revenge for what happened to his grandfather get exactly the same punishment?

(for the record, I abhor racism now....but I am part of the generation that feels the need to compensate for the appalling racist atrocities of previous decades, centuries.....perhaps eventually, the pendulum will swing back towards more acceptance of racism as a basic part of humanity)

(I am very worried that I'm looking like a Neo-Nazi apologist here, so let me state again, I HATE racism of every kind)

0 Replies

EorI, I do not believe in revenge to right past wrongs.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

EorI, I do not believe in revenge to right past wrongs.

Me either. I'm just saying the racist motives (either way) should be ignored, and the crime punished according to the crime itself.

To see it from a different angle: should gay bashing be punished more severely than just plain bashing?

0 Replies

The fact that you feel the need to reaffirm your particular hatred of "racism" per se, thoroughly makes my point. It is the prejudgement of people, based on a single individual or group characteristic that is the problem. Moreover, it works both ways: affirmmative action involves racial discrimination, which is racism by any rational definition. One can't abhor "racism" in the abstract and at the same time support the very measures we apply in the name of countering it.

As a practical matter some forms of affirmative action were indeed needed to break some patterns of group disscrimination. However in applying these remedies we must recognize their bad side effects, and be alert to recognize when we reach the point at which the harm from the side effects exceeds the benefit from the direct effects. Moreover such practical dilemmas illustrate clearly the absurdity of focusing on one abstract form of intolerance, such as "racism".

Not everyone who claims to be a victim of "racism" is discriminated against because of his or her race. Sometimes it occurs because of the refusal to adopt social norms of behavior or speech, or the refusal to give up criminal modes of behavior, or even just ignorance and the lack of education. Some of this is unreasonable, some reasonable. Life is more complex than the simplified abstractions of political correctitude allow.

0 Replies

I completely agree george.

I guess I'm hoping for a distant future where race just isn't an issue, but intolerance is, whether it's individual or group dynamics.

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

However, I believe we usually make too much out of it.

At least the example nimh quoted that "we" don't make too much of it: "we" should make more.

As said, this has been covered over all British papers, and indeed, it's surpringly hopeful how the right-wing tabloid press reacted and reacts.

0 Replies

nimh wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
Nimh [..] professed to be bewildered, even though it seems likely he does understand at least part of the source of Francis' pique.

I sincerely dont have a clue.

I knew that already, clueless Nimh, when it comes to human emotions and behavior!

If you had a sense of pride you would not come playing the victim after you said you'd stay out of my way.

As I stated before, you'd do every tricky thing in order to make your point.

But I'll not allow you to do so and keep pointing out your silly behavior and your nasty procedures.

If you are so upset, you probably are less than I!

You are a cheater and I'll keep telling you so!

0 Replies

Francis, like Nimh, I've always thought of you as a decent man... but your behavior these last couple days is as childish as it is inexplicable.

Francis wrote:

I knew that already, clueless Nimh, when it comes to human emotions and behavior!

If you had a sense of pride you would not come playing the victim after you said you'd stay out of my way.

If you attacked me and refused to link to why, I assure you; I'd behave a damn sight worse than Nimh has.

Francis wrote:

As I stated before, you'd do every tricky thing in order to make your point.

Show us where. You've shown nothing to make such a charge, and many of us have read thousands of Nimh's posts without seeing what you are seeing.

Francis wrote:

But I'll not allow you to do so and keep pointing out your silly behavior and your nasty procedures.

Do you mean you'll keep making the charge without EVER pointing it out? That is simply not fair... and frankly not convincing to anyone but you unless you can back it up.

Francis wrote:

If you are so upset, you probably are less than I!

You are a cheater and I'll keep telling you so!

Do so, without backing it up, and you'll do your own reputation 1000-fold more damage than Nimh's. Please think it through before continuing to attack without demonstrating a just cause.

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

Racism is a particularly fashionable sin in the contemporary coda of political correctitude. However, I believe we usually make too much out of it. Intolerance for "them" is a universal trait among humans, and we almost never rise fully above it. No matter whether the "them" refers to religious, class, national, or other reasons, the phenomenon is the same. Anytime we act as though one group of people or another has less intrinsic worth, by virtue of any characteristic, we are guilty of intolerance. I don't think that intolerance based on ideas of "race" (whatever that really means) or skin color is any better or worse than any other form of intolerance.

You know George, sometime you talk a lot of sense. In fact, you almost always do. Respect.

0 Replies

McTag wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
Racism is a particularly fashionable sin in the contemporary coda of political correctitude. However, I believe we usually make too much out of it. Intolerance for "them" is a universal trait among humans, and we almost never rise fully above it. No matter whether the "them" refers to religious, class, national, or other reasons, the phenomenon is the same. Anytime we act as though one group of people or another has less intrinsic worth, by virtue of any characteristic, we are guilty of intolerance. I don't think that intolerance based on ideas of "race" (whatever that really means) or skin color is any better or worse than any other form of intolerance.

You know George, sometime you talk a lot of sense. In fact, you almost always do. Respect.

Second that motion. This is related, to the topic I think http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=78429&highlight=

I was deeply troubled, as were most people by the attacks of 7/7. Not only by the appalling carnage (though admittedly no worse than some other attaks) but because of who carried them out, and why. George is absolutely right that differentiation between "them" and "us" is a characteristic of being human. To that extent we are indeed all racist. But any thinking person will recognise the need to rise above these primitive ideas and accept that what we have in common as human beings far transcends the differences between us. Mutual respect and toleration of the "other" is the only way forward imo.

Now I have a confession to make. In recent years, and especially since the London bombings I have increasingly viewed Islam with disdain. Does that make me a racist? I dont think so. Islam has adherents of many different races..its one its few characteristics that I actually admire. The Prophet said let there be no compulsion in religion. On the other hand there is (unless you happen to be Michael Jackson) an obvious compulsion in wearing the skin colour with which one was born. So my prejudice is with religion, a set of ideas, and a set of ideas which I believe to be harmful. It was only Islam that turned those four boys into mass murderers. Am I a racist if I believe Islam to be a bad idea?

0 Replies

That's too oversimplified Steve.

0 Replies

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

In recent years, and especially since the London bombings I have increasingly viewed Islam with disdain.

Interesting to look at today's UK papers:

"British Muslim, British hero" is the headline in the Daily Mail above the photograph of Lance Corporal Jabron Hashmi that is repeated across today's front pages.

The 24-year-old became the first British Muslim serviceman to be killed on active service duty in the "war on terror" when he died with Corporal Peter Thorpe, aged 27, in Afghanistan on Saturday.

The men, who were named last night by the Ministry of Defence, died when Taliban fighters attacked their base in Helmand province. Their deaths brought the number of British military fatalities in Afghanistan to five in the last three weeks.

All of the papers - including those which are sometimes accused of giving unfairly negative coverage of the British Muslim community and the issues surrounding immigration - are united in praising L/Cpl Hashmi.

The Mail says the lance corporal, from Bordesley Green, Birmingham, was one of just around 300 British Muslims in the UK's armed forces. It says he told his family his he wanted to "build bridges between the east and west".

He was born in Peshawar, just under an hour from the Afghan border. The Telegraph says his family left Pakistan when he was aged 12 and he joined the army 10 years later in 2004. This weekend he died fighting "militants from his own faith", the Telegraph says.

The Telegraph says L/Cpl Hashmi was "proud to be a Muslim, a solider and British". The Mirror says he was the "Muslim who gave his life for his country". The Times, meanwhile, uses a photograph of L/Cpl Hashmi with a lead story that is based on a poll that suggests British Muslims have "divided loyalties".

It says the poll suggests a significant minority of British Muslims believe they are at war with the rest of society. The poll says 13% of British Muslims think the four men behind last year's July 7 London bombings should be regarded as "martyrs".

0 Replies

Eorl wrote:

For example, if a white supremacist skinhead kept a black slave locked in his basement in New York for two years he would no doubt be punished severely by a court. Would a black man who kept a white in the same way as revenge for what happened to his grandfather get exactly the same punishment?

Judging on the statistics that show that in general, blacks are more likely to be sentenced to prison time, and likely to be sentenced to a longer prison time, than whites when committing the same crime (talking America, I dont know how it is in Britain or Holland but I suppose it's the same), you could presuppose that the black man would actually be punished more harshly.

On the other hand, you're right: in the case of the black man, there would probably be some voices heard in public space (media, fringe politics) that would argue that the act of the black man was somehow historically explainable, whereas noone would really dare try to argue any contextualisation of the white supremacist's act in public.

Perhaps the lesson in this hypothetical scenario would be that the latter serves to somewhat balance the former out - and exists because of the former. I believe - I may be considered naive for it - that voices that tend to apologize for black wrongs would die out as soon as blacks dont actually face a disadvantage anymore. Those who say that they already don't, would seem to ignore, for example, the stats on sentencing.

0 Replies

Hey, thats interesting Walter, re media coverage.

0 Replies

I think its far more significant that one in six Muslims in this country regard the 7/7 bombers as martyrs than that a British soldier, fighting militant Islamists in Afghanistan, happened to be a Muslim himself.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2254738,00.html

0 Replies

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I think its far more significant that one in six Muslims in this country regard the 7/7 bombers as martyrs than that a British soldier, fighting militant Islamists in Afghanistan, happened to be a Muslim himself.

The one doesn't exclude the other ... and I quoted newspaper reports about a killed British Muslim soldier.

0 Replies

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I think its far more significant that one in six Muslims in this country regard the 7/7 bombers as martyrs than that a British soldier, fighting militant Islamists in Afghanistan, happened to be a Muslim himself.

The one doesn't exclude the other ... and I quoted newspaper reports about a killed British Muslim soldier.

true.

0 Replies

Tony Blair this morning

Quote:

Mr Blair told MPs: "If we want to defeat the extremism, we have got to defeat its ideas and we have got to address the completely false sense of grievance against the West.

"In the end, government itself cannot go and root out the extremism in these communities.

"I am probably not the person to go into the Muslim community ... It's better that we mobilise the Islamic community itself to do this.

"I know everyone always wants to blame the government for everything that is happening .... but we can't defeat this extremism through whatever a government does.

"We can only defeat it if we have people in the community who are going to stand up and not merely say 'you are wrong to kill people through terrorism... you're wrong in your view of the West, the whole sense of grievance, the ideology is wrong, is profoundly wrong'."

Well I've been calling it Islam, but as I dont wish to get in to trouble, I'll call it Ideology in future.

0 Replies

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I think its far more significant that one in six Muslims in this country regard the 7/7 bombers as martyrs

One in eight, actually:

Quote:

The Populus poll, published in the Times, showed that 13 per cent of British Muslims believe that the perpetrators of last year's London suicide bombings should be regarded as 'martyrs.'

Some 150,000 Muslim adults, or 16 per cent of the Muslim community, believe that while the attacks were wrong, the 'cause was right.'

Source

It appears mainstream Muslims clearly condemn such stances - but also underestimate their spread:

Quote:

However, the poll of more than 1,000 Muslims indicated that nearly two-thirds are of the view that those who sympathized with the bombers were a 'tiny minority.'

The poll also revealed a stark gulf between those with extremist views and the large majority of British Muslims, who want the government to take tougher measures against extremists.

More than half (56 per cent) of Britain's Muslims believe that the government has failed to combat extremism, and 49 per cent advocate the closer monitoring of what is being preached in mosques.

That raises the question, if more than half of British Muslims want a harder line on extremism, and half even want a closer monitoring of what is being preached in mosques, how can one maintain that the problem of extremism is in Islam, itself? Islam doesnt appear to stop a majority of its believers in Britain, even less so in other European countries (see Pew), to take reasonable positions on this.

0 Replies

Immigration and Racism in Britain and USA

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know