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What do u think of Bush proposing major immigration reform?

 
 
nimh
 
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 08:19 pm
(Sorry about the "u" instead of "you" there, wouldnt fit otherwise.)

This news on MSNBC:

Immigration reform on Bush's agenda - Proposal would be biggest change since '86

Wholly apart of estimating whether he means it and whether he'll come up with something concrete or leave it at mere promises - what do you actually think about what he would be proposing?

From what I gather there's two main planks:

- A temporary-worker program: "Employers would post job opportunities that would be available first to U.S. workers and then to prospective immigrants, who would be allowed to come under a new visa for temporary workers."

- "Some kind of legal status" for undocumented workers in the US; for example, "a new type of visa" that would allow undocumented workers to live in the United States legally for three years, after which they could then apply for the temporary worker visa or legal permanent residency, after all.

(Bush doesnt seem to be wholly sold on the latter, which is a McCain plan, and all the more on the former. The former would be of more immediate benefit to business, but the latter would be more effective in wooing the Latino voters. See in the link for more.)
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 08:30 pm
in the 60's this was known as the "Bracero Program" and worked rather well (aside from working conditions) On August 4, 1942, the U.S. and the Mexican government instituted the Bracero program. Thousands of impoverished Mexicans abandoned their rural communities and headed north to work as braceros. Despite their enormous contribution to the American economy, the braceros suffered harassment and oppression from extremist groups and racist authorities.
While a college student in the 60's I worked with a project to upgrade working conditions, health care and educational programs for the bracero workers in colorado. Offically the program ended in 1964.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 08:43 pm
Politics
Of course this has nothing to do with Dubya. He makes no plans except vacation ones, which seem to be quite a bit.
Seems to be a political ploy to steal another idea from Dems. Doubtful that anything will be done about it. Corps. like things the way they are: Cheap labor, no benefits. If anything is done, it will be in favor of employers and of course to gain more voters for the new party: Neocons
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 08:59 pm
Reform is certainly needed. We need the labor, they need the jobs. This combination just begs for an easy solution. The temporary worker program you mention has potential, but status as a temporary worker should not make it more difficult to obtain permanant resident alien status, which I believe is the case at present. Temps should become eligible for permanant status or citizens after some reasonable period of employment with no serious legal difficulties.

I continue to have problems with undocumented workers. I just do not believe in rewarding illegal behavior. Make temporary visas quicker, easier, and more plentiful, and go from there.

u ok
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 11:28 pm
As long as Americans think they have the greatest nation in history but consider those willing to do anything to come here to be criminals there will be a problem.

The solution to not "rewarding" illegal behavior is to not make inevitable and innocuous behavior illegal.

I think reform is sorely needed, but I doubt much will change. In the US we insult visitors and tourists so much that nations reciprocate.

Just to visit the US many have to provide US officials with information on their job and salary and are often rejected for no reason other than mere suspicion of immigration.

I know countless well to do foreigners who merely wanted to visit Disney Wold but were rejected entry into the US because they come from a poor country.

The situation is absurd. Americans lose sight of humanity through selfish xenophobia.

Being born an American is a winning lotery ticket. And the ignorance and selfishness is such that we want those who wish for a better life and a piece of the pie to be classified as criminals.

It's attitudes like that that make me think many of us do not deserve the privilidge of being born an American.

The sense of entitlement those lucky enough to be born in good circumstances exhibit and the measures they take to try to keep the good life out of the hands of others saddens me.

It makes more sense to criminalize such pigish behavior.
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edgarblythe
 
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Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 11:47 pm
I think Craven has said pretty much what I was going to write. Bush only considers change to preempt some Democrats who see the Latin American vote as a new way to take the white house, a balancing off against the southern strategy.
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2003 10:46 am
The temporary worker program already exists in the tech world. It's called the H1-B visa program.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2003 12:41 pm
When a president wants to be reelected in a close race, he creates new citizens that will vote for him and his party.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2003 01:09 pm
It's hard to think of a temporary worker having an affect on citizenship in the next 12 to 60 months, isn't it? That would have to be the time frame need to influence the next two presidential elections, only one of which the current president is likely to participate in.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2003 01:26 pm
roger, It's not only the presidency; it's also congress. Wink
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2003 02:38 pm
Well, I based my response on what you said, c.i., not what you were going to say.

Now, the link posted says there are an estimated 8 million undocumented people living in the United States and that at least half of them are Mexican. Is it your experience that members of the Mexican - American community (after becoming citizens, of course) tend to vote Republican? You must, of course, or the motive you ascribe to the administration falls on its face.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2003 02:47 pm
roger, I really don't know the answer to your question. Although California is essentially a democratic stronghold with many Mexicans, Ahnold won the recall. In Florida, Jeb has been governor. In Texas, it's been a toss up, and I'm not sure, because GWBush was governor with a huge population of Mexicans. roger, I don't know about you, but often times after a few more minutes of thinking about most issues, we revise them. If you find that a fault, sorry 'bout that!
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2003 05:34 pm
Roger
Quote:
It's hard to think of a temporary worker having an affect on citizenship in the next 12 to 60 months, isn't it? That would have to be the time frame need to influence the next two presidential elections, only one of which the current president is likely to participate in.


It is not those people that the GOP is interested in . It's the large population of Hispanic citizens whose vote they believe will be influenced by the action that they are after.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2003 06:48 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
As long as Americans think they have the greatest nation in history but consider those willing to do anything to come here to be criminals there will be a problem.

The solution to not "rewarding" illegal behavior is to not make inevitable and innocuous behavior illegal.


You speak my heart, Craven.

Craven de Kere wrote:
Just to visit the US many have to provide US officials with information on their job and salary and are often rejected for no reason other than mere suspicion of immigration.


Its not just the States, though - nothing particularly quintessentially American. Its the same here in Fortress Europe. The fear has made entry requirements ridiculous. A Romanian guy once asked a friend of mine and me if he could come visit - but basically, from what I understood, he'd only get an entry visum if either of us would sign a financial guarantee for his stay, pledging that should he 'go underground' and attempt to become an illegal, we would have to pay the thousands of $$ to cover the costs of his deportation. Oh, and our signatures would not be accepted if we didnt earn an independent income ourselves (so in my friend's case her parents would have needed to sign).

And its not just ordinary people. I once worked for the International Documentary Film Festival here (biggest doc festival in the world). We needed to get directors in from around the world as guests to the festival. The ministry just bluntly refused to grant several of 'em, from Central Asia for example, an entry visum, even with the Festival explaining that this was a respected fimmaker, he would be there to comment on his own movie, etc. Its very sad.

As for America vs EU, at least you have something like the Green Cards, the Green Card lottery. Only way to get to live in the Netherlands, if you're from outside the EU, is if you can prove (contract) that you have a job waiting for you, or in context of family reunification, or as asylum-seeker. End of story. No wonder many try to "abuse" the asylum procedure ... only way to get in.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2003 07:13 pm
Re: Politics
pistoff wrote:
Seems to be a political ploy to steal another idea from Dems. Doubtful that anything will be done about it. Corps. like things the way they are: Cheap labor, no benefits.


This doesnt make any sense to me. You say that its just a ploy and so nothing will be done about it, because the corps like things the way they are now: cheap labour. But wouldnt an increase of immigration, temporary work schemes and everything, supply more cheap labour, and thus be a good thing for the corporations - which would thus make it more likely that something will be done about it?

Bush has been talking about doing this since the 2000 elections, by the way - so its not exactly an opportunistic steal-the-Dems'-ideas last-minute move. But, like the article notes, the aftermath of 9/11 threw a spanner in the works there, for a long time.

My theory is that the Reps keep themselves in a deadlock about this one. I think Bush would sincerely like to do a big immigration reform - precisely because it is good for business. And whereas there's been little in the ways of a big plan in Bush's economic policies, his absolute loyalty to business interest has never been in doubt. Plus he's had an eye on shifting the Hispanics into the Rep zone since 2000. Thing is, if he really does do it, he gets in trouble with the conservative and semi-xenophobic wings of his party. And he needs the determined foot soldiers those wings lend to his re-election campaign as much as he needs some cross-over into the Hispanic vote.

My prediction therefore is: he'll publicize his intention to draft a "far-reaching immigration reform" after the elections, and campaign with that declaration of intent among Hispanics, outlining in broad brush-strokes how much easier it will make life for their kin - while refusing to actually commit himself to much any of the specifics of the proposed reform, so that he can still reassure the conservatives while the campaign lasts. And then we'll see after the elections which wing or instinct takes the upper hand.

In any case I'm with Cecilia Muñoz of La Raza on this one: "As long as we get results, we're not going to be picky about the motive."
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2003 07:03 am
Both political parties recognize the potential power of the hispanic vote and are vying for it. It could break the 50/50 stalemate for a long time to come.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2003 10:56 am
edgar, You said it best; the hispanic vote is building at the biggest rate. California has more hispanics than whites or any other minority group. It's the future of our national politics whether we agree with it or not.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2003 11:01 am
Well, I have Hispanics for grandkids (partial) and in-laws. Based on personal observation, I believe the Hispanic influence will ultimately be good for the country.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2003 11:16 am
edgar, It's my personal opinion that "all" cultures benefit this country.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2003 11:19 am
Right you are, CI. I was addressing the folks who express so many negative opinions of others.
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