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Immigration and Racism in Britain and USA

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 01:34 pm
George, I must say I've a lot of fire in the blood but it's not the kind you are implying :wink:
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 01:40 pm
I just want to add that some reactions of some members gave me a reason to go in the cellar and get some books about crisis intervention upstairs again. ... :wink:
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 01:48 pm
So, are you ready to intervene now, Walter? :wink:
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 01:51 pm
George wrote-

Quote:
( Indeed I have already lost a good deal of my former interest in the site due to the diminishing number of interesting posters).


Come on George. That's a bit unkind and somewhat precious. There's fascination all over the site. I wish I had more time for it.

Scientists are interested in everything that's in the world for what it is not for what they wish it to be. I love A2K.

You left me to fight the anti-IDers single handed. Shame on you.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 01:55 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I just want to add that some reactions of some members gave me a reason to go in the cellar and get some books about crisis intervention upstairs again. ... :wink:
Laughing I think it might be ok. The missiles are being withdrawn from Cuba. However, still worth stocking up on tinned food and bottled water. (Personally I put it down to the heat)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 02:05 pm
Francis wrote:
So, are you ready to intervene now, Walter? :wink:


Well, I looked up my scripts from university and seminars. It is what I thought: too early .... and not ask to do so. (I don't want that FIFA has to take actions!)

(Besides, crisis intervention isn't intervention per se but only when there is a crisis! Laughing )
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 02:34 pm
shame it couldnt be France v Holland final

Still never mind always Euro 2008
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 02:39 pm
spendius wrote:
George wrote-

Come on George. That's a bit unkind and somewhat precious. There's fascination all over the site. I wish I had more time for it.

Scientists are interested in everything that's in the world for what it is not for what they wish it to be. I love A2K.

You left me to fight the anti-IDers single handed. Shame on you.


You are probably right in some aspects of your criticism, however, I did accurately describe my reactions of late.

There's nothing that hasn't been said several times on the ID thread. I found it very difficult to even briefly raise the focus of the discussion above the current political struggles between equally narrow-minded protagoniosts on both sides - each preferring to bash his favorite straw man. I find your endurance there remarkable.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 02:53 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
...I find your endurance there remarkable.
fixated, pathological obssessive. Sure Mr Spendyman will concur.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 03:28 pm
I am a bit on the idea that you have to get elected to decide on difficult matters such as education policy. I don't rate plaintiffs. Too easy. It's a job for professionals not Mums and Dads.

See This Must Be The Verse by P Larkin.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 03:31 pm
George-

Do you not think I raised the "focus of discussion" a bit on the ID thread?

I tried to and it's not easy holding it aloft on your own.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 04:29 pm
spendius wrote:
George-

Do you not think I raised the "focus of discussion" a bit on the ID thread?

I tried to and it's not easy holding it aloft on your own.


I believe you did exactly that. Perhaps you recall my efforts a few months ago as well. However, a protracted effort just to get a brief (and fleeting) acknowledgement of what (to me) is the obvious and self-evident reality in a discorse that steadfastly ignores it, preferring instread the mutual bashing of strawmen, is not my idea of pleasant or enlightening conversation.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 04:38 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Nimh [..] professed to be bewildered, even though it seems likely he does understand at least part of the source of Francis' pique.

I sincerely dont have a clue. I'm just totally blindsided by this - thats why I'm so upset about it. All I know is that Francis is upset by a remark I made a month ago, and that I triggered him this time by railing against the Portuguese football team.

Now I know that football can really heat up tempers, but Francis says that he doesnt even care about football. And I just cant remember a single other time than these two that he expressed annoyance at my posts.

So I just havent got a friggin clue where this came from all of a sudden. And since Francis refuses to actually point out what I said that turned me into a racist etc, I have nothing more to go on than that he really doesn't like me. Well, so be it.

Next post will be about racism in Britain...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 04:47 pm
Sorry -
Francis wrote:
But you like boasting silly comments on people when you know they cannot answer you as they told they were away.

Like this, for example - who are you talking about? Who are these "they"? These people that I supposedly "boasted silly comments about" after they said they'd be away? What is this about?

I mean, what is this - I get all these accusations levelled at me, but since there's only insinuations and you never actually specify who or what you're referring to, I cant defend myself - cause I havent even got a friggin clue what you're talking about.

F*ck.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 05:04 pm
OK, racism in Britain. That's what I came to this thread for, this time.

I posted about the case of Zahid Mubarek yesterday. I've been digging in a bit more. I'll share an email I wrote about it at work:

---

In the weekend, I was reading the Telegraph in Muvesz (because it's the only English-language paper they have), and came across the story of Zihad Mubarak, the Pakistani-British boy who was imprisoned for stealing razors and "interfering" with a car, and murdered by a racist, psychopath cellmate the day he was due to be released. A public inquiry report about the case was presented last week.

<snipped>

So I went to look for alternative [stories], and got a bit caught up in the story. It's a heartbreaking story - so heartbreaking that even The Sun, in a story called "Shared Cells, Racist Hell", railed about racism, being the only paper I saw that wrote that "the judge said there was "a real possibility" that prison officers entertained themselves with "gladiator games" - in which unsuited inmates were deliberately put together to provoke violence."

But it's also fascinating, mostly because it spurred such a variety of reactions. Everyone is outraged, but approaches the issue from a completely different perspective. That's unusual among the "set pieces" that tend to dominate politically-controversial news reporting.

Compare this overview:

  • The Telegraph's editorial
Editorial: A racist murder waiting to happen
2006/06/30 · The Daily Telegraph

The litany of failure preceeding the murder of Zahid Mubarek in the Feltham Young Offender Institution disgraces the Prison Service. To put Mubarek, a petty thief, in a cell with Robert Stewart, a psychopath who wrote about "niggers" and "Paki bastards", was an act of idiocy. 19 of the staff - from the then governor down - were named in Justice Keith's report on the killing as having been derelict in their duties. The report also records a culture of racism among warders.

The missed danger signals that led to a brutal murder
2006/06/30 · The Guardian

In his report on the murder of Zahid Mubarek by his cellmate Robert Stewart, on the day he was to be released, Justice Keith concluded that many chances to spot the danger were missed. The inquiry identified 186 failings that were either institutional or by 19 named individuals. The report chided "a pernicious and dangerous cocktail of poor communications and shoddy work practices", and said that the prison was blighted by institutional racism and a casual disregard toward racism.

  • The focus on (institutional) racism and Islamophobia
Zahid Mubarak
2006/06/29 · Black Information Link
  • The focus on the out-of-control imprisonment of juvenile delinquents
We shamefully fail our children by locking them up
2006/07/02 · The Observer

In Justice Keith's public inquiry into Zahid Mubarek's death, names were named, recommendations tabled, and future risks spelled out. One question, though, was neither asked nor answered. Why was he ever sent to prison? He had stolen £6-worth of razor blades and 'interfered' with a car, for which he got 90 days in custody. The first lesson of the Mubarek report, that we lock up too many children, was ignored, despite the news that prison numbers are at an all-time high of 77,865. Prison robs inmates of their jobs, girlfriends or homes and spits them out, infantilised, excluded, mentally frail, and full of anger. Seven out of 10 of the 19,000 18- to 20-year-olds given short sentences in 2004 were back in prison within two years.

  • The focus on the breakdown of mental health care as the real problem
The blame game around Zahed Mubarek's death
2006/06/30 · Asians In Media Magazine

The report on the killing of Zahid Mubarek is a devastating indictment of the prison service. As it is dissected, the emphasis will be on the role of racism. But the fact that Mubarek was Muslim was incidental. This vile incidence could have been prevented if prison officers were better trained; there was provision for mental health assessment; and there was not such over crowding in the prisons. The closing of mental hospitals has left people with psychotic symptoms to fend for themselves. When they commit crimes, like Mubarek's killer, they are locked up in prison where staff is not trained to look after them. About 90% of the 11,000 young men in prisons and institutions have some mental disorder and about 10% are seriously psychotic. Suicides and killings in prison are an almost regular occurence.

  • All kinds of focuses
Mubarek inquiry report: reaction in quotes
2006/06/29 · The Guardian

  • The aftermath
£175k payoff for officer in Mubarek report
2006/07/01 · The Guardian

The independent inquiry into the death of of an Asian inmate at the hands of his racist cellmate identified a "bewildering catalogue of shortcomings, both individual and systemic" in Feltham prison. But Niall Clifford, its governor at the time, retired this year and received his pension and a £175,000 lump sum. The Prison Service also confirmed that it would not take disciplinary action against any of those criticised in the report, arguing that "an undertaking was made that information honestly given by staff to the inquiry would not be used in subsequent disciplinary proceedings". An uncle of Mubarek said: "It's a joke that our family can be treated in such a way. It's a continuation of the Prison Service's attitude they have shown my family. They've just been arrogant and continue to be so even after this report."
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 05:19 pm
How many Africans die everyday.

Kids too.

Short of food and clean drinking water.

While you use one case to parade your virtue.

That's effing racist.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 05:21 pm
And just because you read about it in the effing paper.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 05:42 pm
God damn it, cant one even post about the f*cking subject of the thread now without getting personal insults thrown at your purported motives?

This thread is about racism in Britain, so you're gonna get stories about racist happenings in Britain. I'll post about Africa in threads on Africa, and just in case someone starts on that, I'm NOT saying my country is any better, because it's actually worse.

Now that that's out of the way could anyone bother to actually address the subject at effing hand? I posted lots of what I personally thought were thought-provoking data and excerpts from the Pew report a few pages back, perhaps anybody would like to comment on those for example? Would be as good a place as any to pick up the topic of the thread again..
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 05:49 pm
We are all racists you silly goofball.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 06:02 pm
Yeah, I'm a racist all right, a human racist.
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