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Immigration and Racism in Britain and USA

 
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jun, 2006 04:02 pm
George Ob1- Your case is convincing. I have also read about one of your main points---George F. Kennan, the outstanding US Diplomat said essentially the same thing.
0 Replies
 
Anonymouse
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jun, 2006 07:32 pm
Re: Immigration and Racism in Britain and USA
McTag wrote:
Immigration is currently a hot topic in the UK and by all accounts also, in the southern USA.

Expansion of the EU has given a lot of foreign workers, notably from former Iron Curtain countries, the right to live and work in Britain.
War in the former Yugoslavia has created a huge refugee problem, and many of these refugees wish to come to Britain.

Some immigrants, for a variety of understandable reasons, wish to keep their cultural identity, and their religious adherence, and even their language. This can cause a problem for the host nation, witnessed by the fact that recent bomb outrages in London were done by muslims born in this country. So, to some people, the muslim community becomes "the enemy within" and this fear is causing a rise in nationalist right-wing political parties. Not, to my mind, a good thing.

So, is there a solution or a set of measures we should be taking to counter this potential unrest? Please keep the discussion sensible, bearing in mind our obligations to provide asylum where justified and our society's need to balance emigration.


The solution depends on what you want.

However, continuing multicultural societies cannot have any solutions. Multicultural societies all exhibit the same tendencies of volatility, instability, lack of cultural and national cohesion.

The perfect examples I can give you where there is no immigration and no problems, the sort of which Western European and America are dealing with are the Koreas, and Japan, some of the most homogenous societies on earth.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jun, 2006 07:50 pm
Anymouse, You're absolutely wrong on Japan; they're about the most discriminatory race on this planet, and they even discriminate not only by race, but by economic class. Go back and do some studying.

It's not the integration of different races that creates problem for any society; it's people that likes to group others by any subjective measure they can dream up.

You also need to study history of all cultures with a good serving of anthropology.
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Anonymouse
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jun, 2006 09:09 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Anymouse, You're absolutely wrong on Japan; they're about the most discriminatory race on this planet, and they even discriminate not only by race, but by economic class. Go back and do some studying.

It's not the integration of different races that creates problem for any society; it's people that likes to group others by any subjective measure they can dream up.

You also need to study history of all cultures with a good serving of anthropology.


Did I deny they do not discriminate? That is not the point. The point is about multiculturalism.

And as far as discrimination, it is a natural part of life and man! Discrimination is rather the cognitive ability to differentiate. Anything that is true to its original intent is ipso facto discriminatory. You cannot have it any other way. People by the very fact of existing, naturally discriminate. You yourself do it everytime you choose some thing over some thing else.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jun, 2006 10:39 pm
Anymouse, What you said was:
The perfect examples I can give you where there is no immigration and no problems, the sort of which Western European and America are dealing with are the Koreas, and Japan, some of the most homogenous societies on earth.

YOu said "no immigration and no problems." Wrong; they have plenty of problems with the Chinese and Koreans living in Japan. No country is purely homogenous. Korea has Chinese and Japanese living there.
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Anonymouse
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 12:26 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Anymouse, What you said was:
The perfect examples I can give you where there is no immigration and no problems, the sort of which Western European and America are dealing with are the Koreas, and Japan, some of the most homogenous societies on earth.

YOu said "no immigration and no problems." Wrong; they have plenty of problems with the Chinese and Koreans living in Japan. No country is purely homogenous. Korea has Chinese and Japanese living there.


That does not matter. The differences are so marginal you cannot even compare it to the withering Western world. We are talking about degrees, not kinds. Just look at the CIA factbook.

For South Korea:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ks.html#People

homogeneous (except for about 20,000 Chinese)

That is 20,000 out of a population of 48,846,823.

For Japan:

[/i]Japanese 99%, others 1% (Korean 511,262, Chinese 244,241, Brazilian 182,232, Filipino 89,851, other 237,914)[/i]

And that is 1,265, 500 out of a population of 127,463,611.

The same cannot be said for America, Great Britain, or France. The more ethnic plurality, the more problems, and the more lack of national and cultural cohesion.

Japan and Korea have a virtual absence of crime, a share purpose and heritage. Since there is homogeneity, there is no social conflict since much of the people get the same educations and the same traditions. There are no lawyers waiting to sue every thing that is offensive, there is no equal opportunity laws, no hate crime laws, no discrimination laws, and a plethora of other bureaucratic legislations that plague the Western world in terms of multicultural sensitivity. As such, I am only pointing out that multiculturalism and its problems cannot be solved unless you get rid of multiculturalism, which is not the case. And as such, you must accept the problems that come with the territory so to speak.
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 12:52 am
You are absolutely correct, Anonymouse, and the heterogenity of our country is also one of the major reasons that it takes so long for any reform to take hold. Certain sectors of the community may accept new regulations enthusiastically while other parts will comply very reluctantly and may even rebel against the new laws or procedures.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 12:54 am
Anonymouse wrote:
Japan and Korea have a virtual absence of crime, a share purpose and heritage. Since there is homogeneity, there is no social conflict since much of the people get the same educations and the same traditions. There are no lawyers waiting to sue every thing that is offensive, there is no equal opportunity laws, no hate crime laws, no discrimination laws, and a plethora of other bureaucratic legislations that plague the Western world in terms of multicultural sensitivity. As such, I am only pointing out that multiculturalism and its problems cannot be solved unless you get rid of multiculturalism, which is not the case. And as such, you must accept the problems that come with the territory so to speak.

(Though from 2003) The Economist:
Quote:
Japan's national police agency recorded 2.85m crimes last year, a 60% increase from a decade earlier and the highest number reported since the end of the second world war.


The Crime Library:
Quote:
But despite their garish style, the yakuza cannot be taken lightly. In Japan there are 110,000 active members divided into 2,500 families. By contrast, the United States has more than double the population of Japan but only 20,000 organized crime members total, and that number includes all criminal organizations, not just the Italian-American Mafia. The yakuza's influence is more pervasive and more accepted within Japanese society than organized crime is in America, and the yakuza have a firm and long-standing political alliance with Japan's right-wing nationalists. In addition to the typical vice crimes associated with organized crime everywhere, the yakuza are well ensconced in the corporate world. Their influence extends beyond Japanese borders and into other Asian countries, and even into the United States.



... ... ...
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 01:26 am
I am very much afraid that Mr. Walter Hinteler knows little about Japan and crime rates. Anonymouse is correct about the effect of homogeneity.

If Mr. Hinteler would examine the Wikipedia, he would find that the Japanese CONVICTED FOR THEFT totals 17,247 while Germany, a country with 30 or 40 Million fewer residents had 132,964 CONVICTED FOR THEFT.

These are figures for the 2000 year!!!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 01:39 am
BernardR wrote:
I am very much afraid that Mr. Walter Hinteler knows little about Japan and crime rates. Anonymouse is correct about the effect of homogeneity.

If Mr. Hinteler would examine the Wikipedia, he would find that the Japanese CONVICTED FOR THEFT totals 17,247 while Germany, a country with 30 or 40 Million fewer residents had 132,964 CONVICTED FOR THEFT.

These are figures for the 2000 year!!!


BernhardR obviously didn't read to what post a was respondeing, I wasn't comparing crime in Germany vs that in Japan nor was that questioned.

And anymouse is incorrect since Japan has more crime than "virtually no crime".

2000 is six years ago, btw.
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 01:56 am
You are correct, Mr. Walter Hinteler. You were not comparing crime in Germany to crime in Japan,BUT I WAS. The reason I was comparing crime in Japan with crime in Germany was to show that in a very homogenous society like Japan, crime is quite low when Japan is compared to other countriesm despite the rise in crime you quoted and the referral to the Yakuza.

You are correct, the year 2000 is six years ago. I do not know whether crime statistics world wide are available for more recent years. I will search for them. I am certain that Japan( a homogeneous country as referenced by Anonymouse) has far lower theft prosecutions and convictions than Germany( a far more heterogenous country) has.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 03:19 am
I'd pay serious money to listen to Set and George debate. Please, don't stop. Brilliance is so seldom seen at such odds. I truly missed you both in Chicago.

Bernard and Anonymouse: you both seem to be missing the point of this thread, badly. Of course purer races and cultures will have less trouble from varying ideals. But how could you site such stats as better? Is that really the world you would live in?

At the rate technology is out-pacing humanity; how long do you think before a Hitler could accomplish his goal, at the flick of a switch, if you had it your way?

The only way we'll learn to live together, and survive living together, is if we actually live together. No?
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 03:11 pm
to compare the japanese justice system to those in western nations (united
states and western europe) is rather difficult .
i recall seeing a program on TV two years ago , where a british fellow had
married the daughter of two japanese lawyers . he spent some time living with
the in-laws and recording their lives with a simple handheld camera .
it was quite fascinating and a real eye-opener !

i've read some articles on-line (links at the end) and found some interesting
facts one might want to consider in a comparison.
(of course , my 'research' consists of a bit of 'google' info , but i think
it's enough to show that a very thorough study would be needed for a
meaningful comparison).

lawyers per 10,000 population in japan - 1 (ONE !)
lawyers per 10,000 population in USA - 450 !!!

as an example : in japan in the year 1990 only 30 % of all criminal cases were
prosecuted , but 70 % of cases were dropped before praceeding to court .
typically the police will only forward cases where conviction is (almost)
assured .
generally , the japanese seem to prefer a system of apologies (!) and
arbitration rather than confrontation in court .
i'm sure you have seen japanese business people making formal apologies on TV
(rarely seen in the western world !).
the police have much leeway in deciding if a criminal should be formally
prosecuted.
the linked articles should give us a better undertsanding of the japanese
judicial system and how it differs from western systems .
hbg

link 1

link 2



link 3

link 4
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 04:14 pm
Trying to equate crime rates between different countries is just note reliable and of no value.

Legal systems differ - not only based on what is considered a "crime," but how corrupt the government of the country is.

What is more relavant is trying to figure out why we have such varying crime rates by state, county, and city in our country. Why one state has more executions than others, and why some states has a greater number in prison.

Unless you are planning to move to another country that you "think" has a lower/higher crime rate, it might behoove one to understand that's only one issue to be considered.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 04:30 pm
i considered giving excerpts from the links i posted ; however , i would have had to post every article in full to do justice .
it seems to me one of the major differences in the japanese judicial system is that the name of the accused will usually not be published until after a conviction has taken place . if an accused is not convicted , he can usually re-enter society without having his name in the news . in our western system , an accused is often tried and sentenced 'in public court'
- the news - before even appearing before a judge .
i also find it interesting that juvenile lawbreakers - up to age 20 ! - will usually be rehabilitated within the community rather than being sent to court - and prison .

just imagine if there would be only 1 lawyer for every 10,000 citizens in the united states ! (we'd have to have 'judge judy' work 24 hour days Shocked ).
hbg
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 04:49 pm
The whole point of this thread---made by anonymouse---is that heterogenous societies have more difficulties of all types than heterogeneous societies. That is an irrefutable point.

Mr. Walter Hinteler attempted to denigrate the Japanese by posting a fact regarding the rise in the crime rate in Japan and another fact regarding the Yakuza in Japan.

I am sure he was taken aback by the HUGE difference between the Japanese prosecutions for theft in one year and the German prosecutions for theft. If I had my choice, having visited both countries twice, I would live in Japan.. It is so much more highly civilized and polite.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 05:02 pm
BernardR wrote:
The whole point of this thread---made by anonymouse---is that heterogenous societies have more difficulties of all types than heterogeneous societies. That is an irrefutable point. (Emphasis added)


Do you actually read the sh!t you write before you hit the submit button?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 05:07 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
The facts remain that the seeds for today's conflict between an aroused and backward Moslem World and the West were all planted during the era of European colonialism and misrule priior to and following WWI.


Jeeze, George, so much bluster, and so much of it disingenuous, just to arrive back at your original, and naive, attempt to make out that we are somehow the innocent and hapless heritors of someone else's devious and deep-laid plans. We're big boys, George, and have been since long before we shot ourselves in the foot in the Muslim world.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 05:14 pm
reading the linked articles , i am under the impression that theft - certainly minor theft - is usually not prosecuted in the japanese judicial system , but other 'communal' remedies are applied .
similarly many other 'crimes' that would be prosecuted through the courts in western nations will hardly ever make to court .

under the japanese system such things as : apologies , arbitration and mediation will often suffice to satisfy the aggrieved party .

excerpt from link 2 :
"...Factors other than a cultural preference for social harmony, however, explain the court-shy behavior of the Japanese. The Ministry of Justice closely screens university law faculty graduates and others who wish to practice law or serve as judges. Only about 2 percent of the approximately 25,000 persons who applied annually to the Ministry's Legal Training and Research Institute two-year required course were admitted in the late 1980s. The institute graduates only a few hundred new lawyers each year. Plagued by shortages of attorneys, judges, clerks, and other personnel, the court system is severely overburdened.

***Presiding judges often strongly advise plaintiffs to seek out-of-court
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
settlements.***
-------------------
The progress of cases through even the lower courts is agonizingly slow, and appeals carried to the Supreme Court can take decades. Faced with such obstacles, most individuals choose not to seek legal remedies..."

imo the differences between the japanese judicial system and the systems of western nations make it almost imposible to come up with a valid comparison . one can point out the differences , but that's about all - imo .
hbg
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jun, 2006 05:38 pm
The erudite Mr. Setanta, obvioulsy miffed at me, so angry that he descends to a child's response--Do you actually read the **** you post before you hit the submit button.

I have three observations for the learned Mr. Setanta.

l. A preoccupation with "****" in all of its forms indicates a neurotic obsession with coprophilia. I respectfully suggest that Mr. Setanta obtain some help with that obsession.

2. I am ready to receive instruction from Mr. Setanta. I have read his rambling essays and have found parts of them to be entertaining and true. However, as has been pointed out by other worthies, such as GeorgeOb1, Finn, and the ever astute Asherman, Mr. Setanta has the distressing habit of leaning to the far left.

I am eager to discover just why my post is, as Mr. Setanta puts it in his own inimitable scholarly way--"****"--but I am afraid that he will not instruct me. I know why he will not. I have eviscerated him and his fellow poster Mr. Kuvasz several times. Just recently, I destroyed Mr. Kuvasz on a "global warming" thread, which, I was surprised to find, the learned Mr. Setanta did not even poke one inch of his nose into.


So, Mr. Setana, are you ready to instruct me? I must, however, insist that if you do, I need links and documentation. I wouldn't believe anything you told me on the topic of homogeneity vs. heterogeneity unless it was buttressed by the statement of people who are experts.


PS- Mr. Setanta-- Try "fecal matter" next time. It is in keeping with your erudite image.
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