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The Worst President in History?

 
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 06:03 pm
Mr.Intrepid_ I notice no response to my post in which I answered your questions. Why not?

Then-you quote me QUOTING HINGEHEAD!

You may think it was a COMPLETELY KNEE-JERK RESPONSE TO 9/11, but your opinion is not worth very much since the AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE THE ONES WHO ELECT THE CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT--not people who post on these venues after the fact!!


You are not suggesting that these people are of low intelligence, are you?

Of course the voters are not of low intelligence--They probably average around 100 IQ.

It is hingehead who is holding them responsible for electing President Bush and I SAY THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE AND ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN ELECT HIM!

Now, as I pointed out to Hingehead--If he feels that the American People made a mistake, he should work to elect someone else in 2008. I should tell him that I can assure him that George W. Bush will not run for President in 2008.

He may, of course, feel that an injustice was perpetrated. He has the right to hold that view but I can say without fear of contradiction that the History books will show that George W. Bush was President of the United States from 2000 to 2008 and nothing that hingehead can do will change that fact!!
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 06:21 pm
BernardR wrote:
Mr.Intrepid_ I notice no response to my post in which I answered your questions. Why not?


Perhaps I am getting confused because you still refuse to use the quote function to make things more readable. If you do not know how to do it, I or anyone else, would be happy to tell you. What is it that you want me to reply to?

Quote:
Now, as I pointed out to Hingehead--If he feels that the American People made a mistake, he should work to elect someone else in 2008. I should tell him that I can assure him that George W. Bush will not run for President in 2008.

He may, of course, feel that an injustice was perpetrated. He has the right to hold that view but I can say without fear of contradiction that the History books will show that George W. Bush was President of the United States from 2000 to 2008 and nothing that hingehead can do will change that fact!!


May I remind you, Sir, that the thread is about the worst President in history. NOT whether any particular President was elected for a single or multiple terms. Not whether the people made a mistake in electing said President. NOT whether the history books showed that they were elected to that high office. Only whether the history books show him to be a complete boob. I think that history will bear this out.

Maybe not today; maybe not tomorrow; but soon, and for the rest of millennia.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 06:30 pm
Intrepid wrote:



May I remind you, Sir, that the thread is about the worst President in history. NOT whether any particular President was elected for a single or multiple terms. Not whether the people made a mistake in electing said President. NOT whether the history books showed that they were elected to that high office. Only whether the history books show him to be a complete boob. I think that history will bear this out.

end of quote

And I do not think that history will bear this out. You think that the fact of Bush's re-election is not pertinent, you obviously do not know very much about Presidents and Presidential Historians. People who are apt to be listed as the worst Rresident in history do not get elected for a second term.

If you were correct, Mr. Intrepid, I am certain that the House and the Senate, who, despite what you may think, are much more well informed than you are,would have already impeached President Bush.

They have not done so. Your thesis is then doubly flawed.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 06:34 pm
Can you name one president who was impeached?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 06:37 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Can you name one president who was impeached?


Two U.S. presidents have been impeached: Andrew Johnson, the seventeenth chief executive, and William J. Clinton, the forty-second.

And interestingly,both of them were Democrats.


http://www.infoplease.com/spot/impeach.html
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 06:43 pm
I was hoping for an answer from Bernard. Oh, well.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 06:49 pm
Mr. Intrepid- I think you will find that Mysteryman is a very adept poster and knows what he is talking about at all times. I thank Mysteryman for his answer. I assume that you really were ignorant of the fact that two American Presidents have been impeached, Mr. Intrepid. If that is correct, I am also going to assume that you don't know very much about American Presidents.

Here is a list compiled by American Historians


Presidential Leadership


Historian Survey Results Category:
Performance Within Context of Times


President's Name Final Score Category Ranking Overall Ranking
1. Abraham Lincoln 97.5 1 1
2. George Washington 96.6 2 3
3. Franklin Delano Roosevelt 94.2 3 2
4. Theodore Roosevelt 84.9 4 4
5. Harry S. Truman 80.0 5 5
6. Thomas Jefferson 75.8 6 7
7. Woodrow Wilson 75.6 7 6
8. Andrew Jackson 72.0 8 13
9. Dwight D. Eisenhower 70.7 9 9
10. James K. Polk 68.6 10 12
11. John F. Kennedy 68.1 11 8
12. Ronald Reagan 66.8 12 11
13. Lyndon Baines Johnson 64.2 13 10
14. William McKinley 61.8 14 15
15. John Adams 61.4 15 16
16. James Monroe 61.1 16 14
17. Grover Cleveland 59.4 17 17
18. James Madison 57.5 18 18
19. John Quincy Adams 54.1 19 19
20. George Bush 52.8 20 20
21. Bill Clinton 51.2 21 21
22. Gerald Ford 49.3 22 23
23. William Howard Taft 49.0 23 24
24. Jimmy Carter 48.6 24 22
25. Rutherford B. Hayes 48.1 25 26
26. Chester Arthur 44.3 26 32
27. Calvin Coolidge 44.1 27 27
28. Zachary Taylor 43.9 28 28
29. Benjamin Harrison 43.8 29 31
30. James Garfield 43.7 30 29
31. Martin Van Buren 42.9 31 30
32. Richard Nixon 40.9 32 25
33. Ulysses S. Grant 39.6 33 33
34. Millard Fillmore 38.3 34 35
35. John Tyler 36.7 35 36
36. Herbert Hoover 34.9 36 34
37. Warren G. Harding 28.3 37 38
38. William Henry Harrison 25.7 38 37
39. Andrew Johnson 25.6 39 40
40. Franklin Pierce 24.8 40 39
41. James Buchanan 21


Now, if you are so deluded that you think American Histrorians will rank President George W. Bush with anyone of the Presidents listed below Bill Clinton, you know nothing about American History.

Go ahead,Mr. Intrepid, pick one of those out and I can tell you why he is rated so low on the list!!!
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 07:57 pm
BernardR wrote:
Mr. Intrepid- I think you will find that Mysteryman is a very adept poster and knows what he is talking about at all times. I thank Mysteryman for his answer. I assume that you really were ignorant of the fact that two American Presidents have been impeached, Mr. Intrepid. If that is correct, I am also going to assume that you don't know very much about American Presidents.

Here is a list compiled by American Historians


Presidential Leadership


Historian Survey Results Category:
Performance Within Context of Times


President's Name Final Score Category Ranking Overall Ranking
1. Abraham Lincoln 97.5 1 1
2. George Washington 96.6 2 3
3. Franklin Delano Roosevelt 94.2 3 2
4. Theodore Roosevelt 84.9 4 4
5. Harry S. Truman 80.0 5 5
6. Thomas Jefferson 75.8 6 7
7. Woodrow Wilson 75.6 7 6
8. Andrew Jackson 72.0 8 13
9. Dwight D. Eisenhower 70.7 9 9
10. James K. Polk 68.6 10 12
11. John F. Kennedy 68.1 11 8
12. Ronald Reagan 66.8 12 11
13. Lyndon Baines Johnson 64.2 13 10
14. William McKinley 61.8 14 15
15. John Adams 61.4 15 16
16. James Monroe 61.1 16 14
17. Grover Cleveland 59.4 17 17
18. James Madison 57.5 18 18
19. John Quincy Adams 54.1 19 19
20. George Bush 52.8 20 20
21. Bill Clinton 51.2 21 21
22. Gerald Ford 49.3 22 23
23. William Howard Taft 49.0 23 24
24. Jimmy Carter 48.6 24 22
25. Rutherford B. Hayes 48.1 25 26
26. Chester Arthur 44.3 26 32
27. Calvin Coolidge 44.1 27 27
28. Zachary Taylor 43.9 28 28
29. Benjamin Harrison 43.8 29 31
30. James Garfield 43.7 30 29
31. Martin Van Buren 42.9 31 30
32. Richard Nixon 40.9 32 25
33. Ulysses S. Grant 39.6 33 33
34. Millard Fillmore 38.3 34 35
35. John Tyler 36.7 35 36
36. Herbert Hoover 34.9 36 34
37. Warren G. Harding 28.3 37 38
38. William Henry Harrison 25.7 38 37
39. Andrew Johnson 25.6 39 40
40. Franklin Pierce 24.8 40 39
41. James Buchanan 21


Now, if you are so deluded that you think American Histrorians will rank President George W. Bush with anyone of the Presidents listed below Bill Clinton, you know nothing about American History.

Go ahead,Mr. Intrepid, pick one of those out and I can tell you why he is rated so low on the list!!!


I do not doubt Mystery Man's posting abilities or prowess and implied nothing of the sort.

Count me in as delusional. History will tell. :wink:

Oh, and I do not consider this a matter of Repulican and Democrat.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 08:03 pm
hingehead wrote:

Well he became president - many, many would argue he wasn't elected. Tens of thousands of black voters in Florida were disenfranchised, purely because they were black (ie more likely to vote Democrat). And the consulting agency he used is now pursuing the same tactics in South American countries, no doubt at the recommendation of the current administration.


How do you make statements with not one shred of evidence to support them? Where are those thousands of disenfranchised voters? An investigation following the election could not find them. So where is your evidence? This is the type of demagoguery repeated by the Jesse Jacksons of the world with not one shred of evidence.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2006 09:18 pm
OK Okie

As fragrant as Florida

Greg Palast
Guardian Weekly

There's something rotten in Mexico. And it smells like Florida. The ruling party, the Washington-friendly National Action party (Pan), proclaimed last week that its victory in the presidential race, albeit tortilla-thin, was Mexico's first "clean" election. But that requires we close our eyes to some very dodgy doings in the vote count that are far too reminiscent of the games played in Florida in 2000 by the Bush family. And, indeed, evidence suggests that Team Bush had a hand in what may be another presidential election heist.

Article continues
Just before the 2000 balloting in Florida, I reported in the Guardian that its governor, Jeb Bush, had ordered the removal of tens of thousands of black citizens from the state's voter rolls. He called them "felons", but our investigation discovered their only crime was Voting While Black. And that little scrub of the voter rolls gave the White House to his brother George.

Jeb's winning scrub list was the creation of a private firm, ChoicePoint of Alpharetta, Georgia. Now, it seems, ChoicePoint is back in the voter list business - in Mexico - at the direction of the Bush government. Months ago I got my hands on a copy of a memo from the FBI marked "secret", regarding a contract for "intelligence collection of foreign counter-terrorism investigations".

Given that the memo was dated September 17, 2001, a week after the attack on the World Trade Centre, hunting for terrorists seemed like a heck of a good idea. But oddly, while all 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf, the contract was for obtaining the voter files of Venezuela, Brazil . . . and Mexico.

Full Article
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 12:54 am
Greg Who? from the Guardian?

Here is evidence from the New York Times

Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote
NY Times ^ | 11/12/01 | By FORD FESSENDEN and JOHN M. BRODER



A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year's presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward.

Contrary to what many partisans of former Vice President Al Gore have charged, the United States Supreme Court did not award an election to Mr. Bush that otherwise would have been won by Mr. Gore. A close examination of the ballots found that Mr. Bush would have retained a slender margin over Mr. Gore if the Florida court's order to recount more than 43,000 ballots had not been reversed by the United States Supreme Court.

Even under the strategy that Mr. Gore pursued at the beginning of the Florida standoff ?- filing suit to force hand recounts in four predominantly Democratic counties ?- Mr. Bush would have kept his lead, according to the ballot review conducted for a consortium of news organizations.

But the consortium, looking at a broader group of rejected ballots than those covered in the court decisions, 175,010 in all, found that Mr. Gore might have won if the courts had ordered a full statewide recount of all the rejected ballots. This also assumes that county canvassing boards would have reached the same conclusions about the disputed ballots that the consortium's independent observers did. The findings indicate that Mr. Gore might have eked out a victory if he had pursued in court a course like the one he publicly advocated when he called on the state to "count all the votes."

In addition, the review found statistical support for the complaints of many voters, particularly elderly Democrats in Palm Beach County, who said in interviews after the election that confusing ballot designs may have led them to spoil their ballots by voting for more than one candidate.

More than 113,000 voters cast ballots for two or more presidential candidates. Of those, 75,000 chose Mr. Gore and a minor candidate; 29,000 chose Mr. Bush and a minor candidate. Because there was no clear indication of what the voters intended, those numbers were not included in the consortium's final tabulations.

Thus the most thorough examination of Florida's uncounted ballots provides ammunition for both sides in what remains the most disputed and mystifying presidential election in modern times. It illuminates in detail the weaknesses of Florida's system that prevented many from voting as they intended to. But it also provides support for the result that county election officials and the courts ultimately arrived at ?- a Bush victory by the tiniest of margins.

The study, conducted over the last 10 months by a consortium of eight news organizations assisted by professional statisticians, examined numerous hypothetical ways of recounting the Florida ballots. Under some methods, Mr. Gore would have emerged the winner; in others, Mr. Bush. But in each one, the margin of victory was smaller than the 537- vote lead that state election officials ultimately awarded Mr. Bush.

For example, if Florida's 67 counties had carried out the hand recount of disputed ballots ordered by the Florida court on Dec. 8, applying the standards that county election officials said they would have used, Mr. Bush would have emerged the victor by 493 votes.

Florida officials had begun such a recount the next day, but the effort was halted that afternoon when the United States Supreme Court ruled in a 5-to-4 vote that a statewide recount under varying standards threatened "irreparable harm" to Mr. Bush.

But the consortium's study shows that Mr. Bush would have won even if the justices had not stepped in (and had further legal challenges not again changed the trajectory of the battle), answering one of the abiding mysteries of the Florida vote.

Even so, the media ballot review, carried out under rigorous rules far removed from the chaos and partisan heat of the post-election dispute, is unlikely to end the argument over the outcome of the 2000 presidential election. The race was so close that it is possible to get different results simply by applying different hypothetical vote-counting methods to the thousands of uncounted ballots. And in every case, the ballot review produced a result that was even closer than the official count ?- a margin of perhaps four or five thousandths of one percent out of about six million ballots cast for president.

In the study, the consortium examined 175,010 ballots that vote-counting machines had rejected last November. Those included so-called undervotes, or ballots on which the machines could not discern a preference for president, and overvotes, or ballots on which voters marked more than one candidate.

The examination then sought to judge what might have been considered a legal vote under various conditions ?- from the strictest interpretation (a clearly punched hole) to the most liberal (a small indentation, or dimple, that indicated the voter was trying to punch a hole in the card). But even under the most inclusive standards, the review found that at most, 24,773 ballots could have been interpreted as legal votes.

The numbers reveal the flaws in Mr. Gore's post-election tactics and, in retrospect, why the Bush strategy of resisting county-by-county recounts was ultimately successful.

In a finding rich with irony, the results show that even if Mr. Gore had succeeded in his effort to force recounts of undervotes in the four Democratic counties, Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach and Volusia, he still would have lost, although by 225 votes rather than 537. An approach Mr. Gore and his lawyers rejected as impractical ?- a statewide recount ?- could have produced enough votes to tilt the election his way, no matter what standard was chosen to judge voter intent.

Another complicating factor in the effort to untangle the result is the oversees absentee ballots that arrived after Election Day. A New York Times investigation earlier this year showed that 680 of the late- arriving ballots did not meet Florida's standards yet were still counted. The vast majority of those flawed ballots were accepted in counties that favored Mr. Bush, after an aggressive effort by Bush strategists to pressure officials to accept them.

A statistical analysis conducted for The Times determined that if all counties had followed state law in reviewing the absentee ballots, Mr. Gore would have picked up as many as 290 additional votes, enough to tip the election in Mr. Gore's favor in some of the situations studied in the statewide ballot review.

But Mr. Gore chose not to challenge these ballots because many were from members of the military overseas, and Mr. Gore did not want to be accused of seeking to invalidate votes of men and women in uniform.

Democrats invested heavily in get- out-the-vote programs across Florida, particularly among minorities, recent immigrants and retirees from the Northeast. But their efforts were foiled by confusing ballot designs in crucial counties that resulted in tens of thousands of Democratic voters spoiling their ballots. More than 150,000 of those spoiled ballots did not show evidence of voter intent even after independent observers closely examined them and the most inclusive definition of what constituted a valid vote was applied.

The majority of those ballots were spoiled because multiple choices were made for president, often, apparently, because voters were confused by the ballots. All were invalidated by county election officials and were excluded from the consortium count because there was no clear proof of voter intent, unless there were other clear signs of the voter's choice, like a matching name on the line for a write-in candidate.

In Duval County, for example, 20 percent of the ballots from African- American areas that went heavily for Mr. Gore were thrown out because voters followed instructions to mark a vote on every page of the ballot. In 62 precincts with black majorities in Duval County alone, nearly 3,000 people voted for Mr. Gore and a candidate whose name appeared on the second page of the ballot, thus spoiling their votes.

In Palm Beach County, 5,310 people, most of them probably confused by the infamous butterfly ballot, voted for Mr. Gore and Pat Buchanan. The confusion affected Bush voters as well, but only 2,600 voted for Mr. Bush and another candidate.

The media consortium included The Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Tribune Company, The Washington Post, The Associated Press, The St. Petersburg Times, The Palm Beach Post and CNN. The group hired the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago in January to examine the ballots. The research group employed teams of three workers they called coders to examine each undervoted ballot and mark down what they saw in detail. Three coders provided a bulwark against inaccuracy or bias in the coding. For overvotes, one coder was used because there was seldom disagreement among examiners in a trial run using three coders.

The data produced by the ballot review allows scrutiny of the disputed Florida vote under a large number of situations and using a variety of different standards that might have applied in a hand recount, including the appearance of a dimple, a chad dangling by one or more corners and a cleanly punched card.

The difficulty of perceiving dimples or detached chads can be measured by the number of coders who saw them, but most of the ballot counts here are based on what a simple majority ?- two out of three coders ?- recorded.

The different standards mostly involved competing notions of what expresses voter intent on a punch card. The 29,974 ballots using optical scanning equipment were mostly interpreted using a single standard ?- any unambiguous mark, whether a circle or a scribble or an X, on or near the candidate name was considered evidence of voter intent.

If all the ballots had been reviewed under any of seven single standards, and combined with the results of an examination of overvotes, Mr. Gore would have won, by a very narrow margin. For example, using the most permissive "dimpled chad" standard, nearly 25,000 additional votes would have been reaped, yielding 644 net new votes for Mr. Gore and giving him a 107-vote victory margin.

But the dimple standard was also the subject of the most disagreement among coders, and Mr. Bush fought the use of this standard in recounts in Palm Beach, Broward and Miami- Dade Counties. Many dimples were so light that only one coder saw them, and hundreds that were seen by two were not seen by three. In fact, counting dimples that three people saw would have given Mr. Gore a net of just 318 additional votes and kept Mr. Bush in the lead by 219.

Using the most restrictive standard ?- the fully punched ballot card ?- 5,252 new votes would have been added to the Florida total, producing a net gain of 652 votes for Mr. Gore, and a 115-vote victory margin.

All the other combinations likewise produced additional votes for Mr. Gore, giving him a slight margin over Mr. Bush.

While these are fascinating findings, they do not represent a real- world situation. There was no set of circumstances in the fevered days after the election that would have produced a hand recount of all 175,000 overvotes and undervotes.

The Florida Supreme Court urged a statewide recount and ordered the state's 67 counties to begin a manual re-examination of the undervotes in a ruling issued Dec. 8 that left Mr. Gore and his allies elated.

The Florida court's 4-to-3 ruling rejected Mr. Gore's plea for selective recounts in four Democratic counties, but also Mr. Bush's demand for no recounts at all. Justice Barbara Pariente, in her oral arguments, asked, "Why wouldn't it be proper for any court, if they were going to order any relief, to count the undervotes in all of the counties where, at the very least, punch-card systems were operating?"

The court ultimately adopted her view, although extending it to all counties, including those using ballots marked by pen and read by optical scanning. Many counties immediately began the effort, applying different standards and, in some cases, including overvotes.

The United States Supreme Court stepped in only hours after the counting began, issuing an injunction to halt the recounts. Three days later, the justices formally overturned the Florida court's ruling, sealing Mr. Bush's election.

But what if the recounts had gone forward, as Mr. Gore and his lawyers had demanded?

The consortium asked all 67 counties what standard they would have used and what ballots they would have manually recounted. Combining that information with the detailed ballot examination found that Mr. Bush would have won the election, by 493 votes if two of the three coders agreed on what was on the ballot; by 389 counting only those ballots on which all three agreed.

The Florida Legislature earlier this year banned punch-card ballots statewide, directing counties to find a more reliable method. Many counties will use paper ballots scanned by computers at voting places that can give voters a second chance if their choices fails to register. In counties that use that technology, just 1 in 200 ballots had uncountable presidential votes, compared with 1 in 25 in punch-card counties.

Others will invest in computerized touch-screen machines that work like automated teller machines.

Kirk Wolter, who supervised the ballot review for the National Opinion Research Center, said that the study not only provided a comprehensive review of uncounted ballots in Florida but would help point the way toward more accurate and reliable voting systems. All data from the consortium recount is available on the Web at www.norc.org.

Mr. Wolter, the research center's senior vice president for statistics and methodology, said, "I hope in turn this can lead to voting reform and better ways of doing this in future elections."
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 01:50 am
And of course you believe the great "progressive" reporter, Greg Palast, wouldn't you? Progressive is of course another term for "communist." He loves to document fraud against people like Hugo Chavez and the leftist Obrador in Mexico. I suppose Palast would agree with Fidel Castro when he calls Cuba's elections the most democratic and free in the world.

The truth about the 2000 Florida election is summarized here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/kirsanow200403090858.asp

From that article, I quote:
"State officials were not at fault for widespread voter "disenfranchisement". The myth holds that Governor Bush, in league with Secretary of State Katherine Harris, either by design or incompetence, failed to fulfill their electoral responsibilities, resulting in the discriminatory disenfranchisement of thousands of black voters. This was purportedly a key to the overarching Republican plot to steal the election from Al Gore.

Again, reality intrudes. The uncontroverted evidence shows that by statute the responsibility for the conduct of elections is in the hands of county supervisors, not the governor or secretary of state. County supervisors are independent officers answerable to county commissioners, not the governor or secretary of state. And in 24 of the 25 counties that had the highest ballot-spoilage rates, the county supervisor was a Democrat. (In the remaining county the supervisor was not a Republican, but an independent.)

Moreover, as is simply put by Commissioner Thernstrom, voter error is not the same thing as "disenfranchisement." Even if more black than white voters spoiled their ballots by mistake, that's not evidence of a scheme to discriminate on the basis of race, and it certainly doesn't evoke images of dogs and fire hoses.

After issuance of the commission's report some diehards, perhaps realizing that history frowns on demagoguery, desperately sought any facts that might support the myth. The Justice Department was pressed for action.

The Justice Department conducted a thorough investigation. The result:

The Civil Rights Division found no credible evidence in our investigation that Floridians were intentionally denied their right to vote during the November 2000 election."


The truth does not matter. Demagogues as Palast, Jesse Jackson, and others will continue to spout their poison without one shred of evidence to the contrary. Only unsubstantiated claims that have been investigated and debunked.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 07:16 am
Quote:
Progressive is of course another term for "communist."


No, it isn't. No more than conservative is another word for fascist. Quite different things.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 10:12 am
Not a good parallel, blatham. Are conservatives in England or Canada fascists, and do they sympathize with fascists? At the same time, every time I read the opinions of "progressives," they seem to have an affection for leftists and communists, like Castro, Chavez, Gorby, etc. We aren't blind out here blatham, we can read and we can see. After all, this Greg Palast is ballyhooed as a progressive, and some of the work he is most proud of was election fraud in Venezuela and Mexico, where he was distinctly in favor of the leftist or communist candidates. I would say Chavez is a communist. Perhaps you could argue not purely, but I think the label is appropriate.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 10:25 am
okie

I'm not going to argue with you. You can study up on the history of the term "progressive" and the political movements associated or you can just hang on to your notion regardless of whether you have it right or not. In Canada, for example, through the 20th century, two parties swapped power at the federal level, the Liberals and the Progressive Conservatives. Brian Mulroney, Prime Minister during Reagan's tenure, was the head of the Progressive Conservatives.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 10:30 am
Technically, I am going to give this one to you, blatham, as you understand the term from historical usage. I am making my own judgement as it is claimed by certain figures in the U.S. of late. When they claim progressive, my antenna go up, because it is a buzzword for socialist and communist sympathies. They would not admit it, and perhaps they are only half way there, but anyway their beliefs mesh with government can fix anything and industries should be turned over to government in order to fix it. They have little confidence in the free market and they generally have a severe dislike of business and corporations. So what conclusion am I susposed to draw, blatham?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 10:41 am
okie wrote:
Technically, I am going to give this one to you, blatham, as you understand the term from historical usage. I am making my own judgement as it is claimed by certain figures in the U.S. of late. When they claim progressive, my antenna go up, because it is a buzzword for socialist and communist sympathies. They would not admit it, and perhaps they are only half way there, but anyway their beliefs mesh with government can fix anything and industries should be turned over to government in order to fix it. They have little confidence in the free market and they generally have a severe dislike of business and corporations. So what conclusion am I susposed to draw, blatham?


It's been my observation that some "progressives" seem to have more of an affection for gay marriage than anything else.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 10:50 am
okie wrote:
Technically, I am going to give this one to you, blatham, as you understand the term from historical usage. I am making my own judgement as it is claimed by certain figures in the U.S. of late. When they claim progressive, my antenna go up, because it is a buzzword for socialist and communist sympathies. They would not admit it, and perhaps they are only half way there, but anyway their beliefs mesh with government can fix anything and industries should be turned over to government in order to fix it. They have little confidence in the free market and they generally have a severe dislike of business and corporations. So what conclusion am I susposed to draw, blatham?


Someone may have told you that progressive is a buzzword for communism or communist sympathies, but that would be false information. No one I know believes government can "fix anything" and certainly no one I know holds that industry ought to be turned over to government control. Many, like myself, hold that government has a responsibility to moderate the excesses of a free market (eg the recent Justice Department case against tobacco companies) while allowing as much freedom to the markets to operate as possible without endangering citizens and with an eye to preventing monopolies. Even Pat Buchanan, for example, analogizes corporate behavior to that of sharks.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 10:59 am
I think, anyone with a decent knowledge of history and/or following the news over a couple of years will have noticed that their progressives on the left as well as on the right.

Personally and without looking it up, I associate 'progressive' more with the right side of the party spectrum, like in Canada and Ireland (An Páirtí Daonlathach), the UKIP in the UK etc etc
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2006 12:37 pm
Who is this organization? Where are they located and why should anyone believe that the contents of this "memo" has any validity to the current political situations?

************************************

National Alliance of Republican American Conservatives (NARAC)

It being essential to achieve our program that the conservative elements of the Republican Party dominate the Executive Branch throughout the coming century, we adopt the following objectives:

1. Encourage factionalism within the ranks of those who envision an America at odds with those principles in which our strategy is rooted. Political special interest groups will inevitably clash over ends and means. The resulting enmity will prevent effective political consolidation behind a single viable candidate. No candidate can satisfy all competing demands, and promises to do otherwise destroy the candidate's credibility with mainstream voters. Thus, campaigns on "the issues" of greatest interest to the opposition work in favor of that Party which cleaves to only to the most fundamental issues; national security and foreign threat, the economy and prosperity, core American values and an optimistic vision of America's place in the world. Let the opposition indict America as uncaring, selfish, unjust, imperial-minded and blinded by blood lust. Opposition to America in Europe and by terrorist groups around the world will, in the long run work to our advantage in future elections. Every effort by the opposition to portray the despotic regimes of North Korea, Syria and Iran as benign further reduces the credibility of opposition to the national security effort. We, on the other hand, will speak for the great majority of American voters who have a more positive view of America's place in the modern world. Our positive views will stand unshaken by a clamorous, but divided opposition who has only negative views about America.

2. Keep the focus of the opposition on the past, the inconsequential, and irrelevant. The continual focus of the opposition on the person and policies of the Bush Administration are a gigantic plus for our candidate in the 2008 election. While the opposition is focused on the past, our candidate will be free to enunciate a vision for the future without serious challenge. The opposition's efforts to make gay-marriage and abortion major issues will, at best, only divide their forces. The focus on utopian schemes that play to the disenfranchised and powerless will not win many votes, because the numbers of disenfranchised and powerless in the United States isn't great. Arguments over whether a votes are made on one machine or another is best will sap the opposition's energy when confronted by real and substantive issues of grave interest to the mainstream voter. Fear mongers and conspiracy theorists are our allies, in that they bring ridicule and disbelief to the opposition's efforts.
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