The Worst President in History?

Okie wrote:

Quote:

You can't be serious about London? Most live in very small, tight, congested, mostly older housing, and very expensive housing I think, and the streets, buses, and subways or underground are most definitely not my idea of living, but oh well, to each his own. I'm just not a fan of big cities or overpopulated areas. I would be interested in poverty rates, but lets be careful to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Based on what I've seen, half of London would be considered poverty stricken in the U.S.

And how it that different than New York City? Or Boston? Or Chicago? All the old cities could fit the above description. Dallas, Houston and Oklahoma City have their run-down sections but instead of old brownstones they are filled with sagging double-wides.

Okay. whose going to start the "Where is the better place to live? thread?

Joe(first, get you datum together)Nation

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okie wrote:

You can't be serious about London? Most live in very small, tight, congested, mostly older housing, and very expensive housing I think, and the streets, buses, and subways or underground are most definitely not my idea of living, but oh well, to each his own.

I am serious about London. I think that the percentage of people living in "very small, tight, congested, mostly older housing" in London would be about equal to that in Washington. London is indeed one of the rather expensive places to live, but that's exactly what people are complaining about in Washington D.C.
The streets in Washington are wider and spacier than most London streets, thanks to French architect L'enfant who is not only responsible for the boulevards of Paris, but also for the map of D.C.
The red London buses are a good means of transportation, and the new fleet is modern and up to date. Washington buses, in comparison, are on average a couple of years older (that would be my guess, I haven't checked the facts, I'll admit).
The subway in D.C., in turn, is somewhat nicer, but then again construction of the Washington system began some 35 years ago, whereas the London underground is the world's oldest and largest underground system, where service began over 140 years ago.

okie wrote:

I'm just not a fan of big cities or overpopulated areas.

Well. Yes. But that's not really a specific problem of London, is it? What do you think, would you choose Washington over London?

okie wrote:

I would be interested in poverty rates, but lets be careful to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Based on what I've seen, half of London would be considered poverty stricken in the U.S.

Well, in that case half of Washington would be considered poverty stricken in the U.S., too. Let's really have a look at some numbers, shall we?

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Yeah, let's do some numbers. But first, a couple of quick points on big cities and immigration.

Joe and I both live in New York. Cramped? Oh yes. Expensive here? Killer expensive. These things hold true in any large city.

And immigrants usually head, at least initially, to the larger centers because of the availability of employment and, often, because others of their cultural group can be found there. New York is a city of immigrants and always has been. I LOVE this aspect of the place. When your neighbors are from all over the place, with different values, ideas, faiths, etc, most everyone becomes more open and liberal out of necessity. A small village in the center of the US or Canada or France or Afghanistan where a single ethnic group is represented is also where small-minded bigotry and knee-jerk "conservatism" tends to flourish. As the Texas politician said, "English was good enough for Jesus and it's good enough for me."

That's the reason why large cities, particularly those along coastlines, tend to be more liberal than areas inland where immigration is minimal and where contact with other cultures is much more limited.

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Joe, OE, and blatham, yes to surprise you, I will concede some of what I speak of here is common to large cities regardless of country. I am a country boy at heart, so I just like the wide open spaces and smaller towns. I don't know too much of New York or Washington DC, I've been to each just once and didn't like either one, and I've been to London once, but seriously I thought it was by far the worst. Maybe its because of having an American bias in part, I don't know. You couldn't pay me enough to live there, but it's residents are probably made up of people that have either lived there forever and are used to it or came there more recently from a much worse place. I would not describe it as a congenial place to live in any way, shape, or form. Not for me at least, but I admit there may be people that thrive on that type of living, but I don't.

By the way blatham, I think your analysis of bigotry of inlanders is flawed. Thats a pretty big accusation you make there with little proof. You forget that inland areas are made up of mostly immigrants, if not this generation then maybe 1, 2, or 3 generations back. And if the immigrants are illegal, perhaps the people have a reason to have an axe to grind. As for me, I think illegal immigration is terribly wrong and bad for the country, but despite this, I find myself being friendly and liking people that I suspect might be illegals.

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Okie
I live just outside of Washington DC. Let me give you an example of my neighborhood. I live on a corner house. Across the street from me is a black welfare family. Next door to me is a house owned by Hispanics. Here in my neighborhood most Hispanics are San Salvadorians. They rent out rooms to other Hispanics to help pay the mortgage. Only one of them speaks English.

Next to me and across the street lives a Chinese couple. They are elderly and he is a retired cook that worked in a Chinatown restaurant. They rent the upstairs rooms to a Univ. of MD student studying for her Masters. They don't speak English either. They have children but the only one I know is the youngest daughter. She's a civil engineer. She was a friend of my eldest daughter. Next door to them lives a widow Taiwanese woman. She's a nurse and speaks English and Mandarin.

My other next door neighbor is a white couple in their 50's. His mother is living with them as she can't be on her own. Cattycorner from me is a young white couple. She is a school teacher and he owns a bike shop.

As you can see my neighborhood is somewhat international. I don't think you will see to much of this in small town Mid-American red states. But what you will see is suspicion and some hostility to anything that is not like them.

It may be true that small town America came from immigrants but if you look at the history of this country you will see a hostility to immigrants going back to the early 19th century. Did you ever see the movie 'Gangs of New York'?

Today we see this same hostility and suspicion towards the Hispanics. In the past the hostility was directed at the Jews, Germans, Italians and Irish. Tomorrow it will be directed at someone else.

There are a lot of things that are unpredictable but one thing that will be predictable will be hostility and suspicion new immigrants will get from a certain segment of our society.

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okie

Quote:

By the way blatham, I think your analysis of bigotry of inlanders is flawed. Thats a pretty big accusation you make there with little proof. You forget that inland areas are made up of mostly immigrants, if not this generation then maybe 1, 2, or 3 generations back. And if the immigrants are illegal, perhaps the people have a reason to have an axe to grind. As for me, I think illegal immigration is terribly wrong and bad for the country, but despite this, I find myself being friendly and liking people that I suspect might be illegals.

You are correct to point to the suspect nature of such large generalizations. Lots of individual localized cases will show a different tendency. But it is the only way we can talk about such issues or questions where huge populations are involved. So we need to temper our temptation to say that such claims are "true" by adding something like "most of the time" or "usually", etc. (And we need to be acutely careful not to use them in promotion of bigotry, eg "gypsies are not trustworthy" or "muslims are violent", etc.)

Cultural mixing almost always produces turmoil. That ought not to surprise. But it is often inevitable (America is a perfect example) and, more important, it is mostly a very good thing. Neither Elvis nor Broadway musicals nor modern popular music would have come about without the the influence of African musical cultures. The Constitution could not have come about without the influence of English political culture and that heritage couldn't have existed without the broad and clashing European Enlightenment dialogue which itself was a product of yet earlier cultural clashes from peoples and their ideas/values immigrating and clashing.

We do need to make some accounting for the (general) tendency of large cities, particularly coastal cities, being more open to change and more accepting of cultural diversity than more isolated inland communities (in any country). And something like my idea above must surely be the cause.

The specific issue America faces right now regarding illegal immigration won't necessarily be just (or even mainly) a manifestation of cultural bigotry. But we can predict it will cause turmoil.

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re Xingu's thoughtful post...

When I did my teaching practicum in Vancouver, I had thirty-three students (grades 5-7) and five or six of them spoke English as a first language. It wasn't a big teaching problem as kids pick up language almost as easily as we older farts gobble down a burger.

I grew up in a small farming town 60 miles out of Vancouver. It had a large Mennonite community (we were part of that) who'd arrived from the Canadian prairies mainly during the depression (Canada went through the same events as portrayed in "The Grapes of Wrath" - many poor farmers leaving the dustbowl/depression circumstances and heading to the better agricultural areas near the west coasts). As a very young child, I can recall myself and my extended family out picking hops and raspberries and beans and strawberries, etc...immigrant work. Mennonites don't do that any longer. Now, they teach and own businesses and run for office. Driving past those same farm fields presently, you'll see the latest wave of immigrant, in this case, folks from India/Pakistan. And some Mennonites don't really care for these new immigrants...they are strangers, interlopers, too different.

We humans can be pretty dumb.

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Xingu, thanks for the picture of your neighborhood. Blatham, thanks for your bit of history, and after thinking about this a bit more, I would submit that every bit as much discrimination exists along coastlines or big cities as in rural areas. In more crowded conditions, the hostilities may tend to manifest themselves in a worse way it seems to me. In big cities, people don't even make eye contact on the street. In smaller communities, I think people are friendlier. I admit smaller communities may be slow to accept newcomers, but I think this may apply regardless of race or religion, but over time, if the newcomers prove themselves as good citizens, they are accepted.

I know of communities in Kansas for example where Mexican immigrants, Vietnamese immigrants, and others have settled, and I have not heard of any problems whatsoever in terms of people getting along. The problems with illegal immigrants has increased social problems in many areas, such as crime, drug use, etc. It may be a misconception that the interior of America has not experienced recent immigrants.

I will add an observation here, totally honest, but one that puts me at risk for criticism because I am entering politically correct terrain here. When I was in the Army many moons ago, the black folks from big cities had a much bigger chip on their shoulders than those from rural areas. This observation and perception has been confirmed by other guys I've talked with. Black guys from Chicago or other large cities, not too friendly. Black guys from rural areas of Mississippi, Alabam, etc. great guys. As blatham explains, generalizations are not accurate across the board, so that is what I am doing here, generalizing.

To explain here, I am white, but never grew up around black folks, but my parents were not prejudiced at all, and my first experiences with blacks was mostly in the Army, so I was sensitive to it there. My very best drill sargeant in skill and caring about his troops was a black guy, and many I served with were the best. We are all human beings with our own personalities and I personally think its time to become more color blind.

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By the way, on the subject of London, remember the July, 2005 terrorist bombings on the transit system? This does not add to its congeniality does it?

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okie wrote:

Xingu, thanks for the picture of your neighborhood. Blatham, thanks for your bit of history, and after thinking about this a bit more, I would submit that every bit as much discrimination exists along coastlines or big cities as in rural areas. In more crowded conditions, the hostilities may tend to manifest themselves in a worse way it seems to me. In big cities, people don't even make eye contact on the street. In smaller communities, I think people are friendlier. I admit smaller communities may be slow to accept newcomers, but I think this may apply regardless of race or religion, but over time, if the newcomers prove themselves as good citizens, they are accepted.

I will add an observation here, totally honest, but one that puts me at risk for criticism because I am entering politically correct terrain here. When I was in the Army many moons ago, the black folks from big cities had a much bigger chip on their shoulders than those from rural areas. This observation and perception has been confirmed by other guys I've talked with. Black guys from Chicago or other large cities, not too friendly. Black guys from rural areas of Mississippi, Alabam, etc. great guys. As blatham explains, generalizations are not accurate across the board, so that is what I am doing here, generalizing.

To explain here, I am white, but never grew up around black folks, but my parents were not prejudiced at all, and my first experiences with blacks was mostly in the Army, so I was sensitive to it there. My very best drill sargeant in skill and caring about his troops was a black guy, and many I served with were the best. We are all human beings with our own personalities and I personally think its time to become more color blind.

Nice post.

I came from a, well, 'not-so-rich' neighborhood in Houston that was pretty ethnically diverse; we had white, black, asian, hispanic, you name it, all jumbled together. What did we have in common? Economics, which was about it. But my parents' families came from small towns, so I have spent a goodish portion of my life in rural America as well.

One of the major differences in the country vs. the city is in the pressures formed by population density. I, unlike many people, don't consider racism to be an inherently evil position; I think it is a genetic holdover from the times when Humans could only trust members of their own tribe, during times when you couldn't afford not to be suspicious of the next town over with all the red-headed wild folk. Hell, throughout the majority of history, everyone who looks different has been an enemy for most people. So, to have come as far as we have in just a few hundred years is a gigantic step.

But, when people are living in close proximity to one another, and economic conditions are tough, I feel there is a real tendency for racial divisions to grow stronger, as people seek those who are like them - and the easiest method is to find someone who looks like you - for support. This is of course exacerbated by hot-headed youths who are smart enough to see how crappy their situation is, but not smart enough to see how hard work and personal responsibility can get them out of it.

We had gangs where I grew up; hispanic and black gangs. The white kids didn't really form gangs per say, but we looked out for each other; hell, we had to. Reverse discrimination was a fact of life as a kid in a multicultural environment; it's tough to get picked for basketball or other sports when all the other kids are convinced that you are slower and weaker because you're white.

This post kind of rambles, but I guess I can see where the 'chip' on people's shoulder comes from when you grow up in the city. It's tough being a kid and worrying about violent situations in your own neighborhood; there is a lot of pressure to show that you are tough enough to handle it, to show the wolves that you aren't a sheep. Because prey didn't last long. If this is the experience of one's formative years, then it will probably be a lifetime of said behavior.

Contrast this to a country upbringing; many of the same problems exist, true, but at least there is a little space to cool things off.

Cheers

Cycloptichorn

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I'd just like to say that I'm enjoying the recent tone of this thread immensely.

Joe(reasonable people all around)Nation

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okie

Your statement about folks not being friendly on the streets of big cities is and is not accurate. Partly, the problem is how many times can you say "Hello"?

But New York is an incredibly friendly place, at least where I am in the Upper East side of Manhattan. That surprised me, I have to tell you. This place has a reputation for callousness which is undeserved. I find people here even more friendly than on the streets in Vancouver. When I was renovating our shop, at least a half dozen neighborhood people stuck their heads in the door and said, "Welcome to the neighborhood!"

Two days ago, a lady came into our shop and as we yakked about a bunch of stuff, she revealed that her husband had passed away two months ago. Five minutes later we were both in tears about family and loss and faith etc.

A week or so previous, an Italian lady who lives right beside our shop was leaning out her ground floor window and she began telling me about the neighborhood when she was young (she'd lived on that street all her life) when it was demographically almost entirely Cicilian (and mafia). Lucky Lucianno rubbed her head to give her luck when she was little. Kids ran safely all about and everyone looked after everyone else's kids, just as was the case in my little home town. She too began to get a bit teary with nostalgia.

Those are some of the people and reasons I love this place. There are many more. The Chinese family (who came from Africa) who run the corner store, he speaks five languages and she speaks four. They have some spanish speaking staff that seem to be part of their family now. A while back, she was reaching for something up high and I suggested the problem was simply that "you asian people are just too short". She laughed so hard I thought she might fall over. etc etc.

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It's unbelieveable that there are still some out there that defend this idiot we have for a president.

Quote:

Reid replied in a statement, "When the U.S. intelligence community confirmed that America is losing the war on terror because of Bush failures in Iraq, this White House lost all credibility on matters of national security. With Iraq in a civil war, Afghanistan moving backwards and our own borders unsecured, it's clear George Bush and Dick Cheney are desperate to hide their record and distort the truth."

SOURCE

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Quote:

It's unbelieveable that there are still some out there that defend this idiot we have for a president.

Yes, it sure is unbelieveable that we still have millions of Americans, like Brandon, who believe what the Bush administration say about their aims and intentions. How is it possible? Personally, I blame patriotism. There is this underlying assumption that the US is benevolent and everything is interpreted based on this assumption. It's fantastic for those in power because they can get away with murder - literally - and it will be viewed as self defense by the patriotic masses. There is no evidence that the US is benevolent, it's simply a matter of unquestionable faith for the patriots.

http://www.hostbidder.com/images/smilies/old/gunfire.gif

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http://keithdevens.com/images/flag_smiley.gif

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Cycloclipchorn doesn't know that Black people cannot be racists. Only people that control the power can be racists. And that means that Blacks cannot be racists. The reverse discrimination ploy is an excuse to continue racist acts.

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Slip back into your smelly casket, possum.

Re numbers...here's a recent look at competetive economies...

Quote:

U.S. Loses Ranking as Most Competitive Economy to Switzerland
By Simon Kennedy

Sept. 26 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. lost its position as the world's most competitive economy to Switzerland as budget and trade deficits prompted a slide to sixth in the World Economic Forum's annual rankings.

Switzerland jumped from fourth place last year and Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Singapore all overtook the U.S. with Japan, Germany, the Netherlands and the U.K. rounding out the top ten in the study of 125 nations by the Geneva-based forum.

The decline in U.S. competitiveness adds to questions about the outlook for the world's largest economy as economists at JPMorgan Chase & Co. suggest its potential for growing without inflation is fading and as the expansion shows signs of slowing.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=a_woNfYRC6KI&refer=europe

Perhaps others have information on Singapore, Japan and Switzerland but all the other nations listed here have extremely generous safety net programs.

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http://images.ucomics.com/comics/sc/2006/sc060912.gif

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MarionT wrote:

Cycloclipchorn doesn't know that Black people cannot be racists. Only people that control the power can be racists. And that means that Blacks cannot be racists. The reverse discrimination ploy is an excuse to continue racist acts.

Absolutely true Possum, we all know there are no Black racists, racists are always humans and there are no black humans. Thanks for reminding of that essential fact Possum, you are always right on target.

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Quote:

How Bush Wrecked the Army

http://www.slate.com/id/2150337/

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blatham wrote:

okie

Your statement about folks not being friendly on the streets of big cities is and is not accurate. Partly, the problem is how many times can you say "Hello"?

But New York is an incredibly friendly place, at least where I am in the Upper East side of Manhattan. That surprised me, I have to tell you. This place has a reputation for callousness which is undeserved. I find people here even more friendly than on the streets in Vancouver. When I was renovating our shop, at least a half dozen neighborhood people stuck their heads in the door and said, "Welcome to the neighborhood!"

......

I am happy for you, blatham. And this reminds me of a story where two different people moved to a place or visited a place, and each had opposite impressions, one that the people were great and the other that the people were all snobbish slobs. At least some of this depends upon your attitude, and sounds like you like it there so the people are going to respond to that in like kind.

And you are correct if you live around alot of people, you tend to get tired of greeting all of them. But I think people are more comfortable with a bit of elbow room, so I don't necessarily see more discrimination in sparsely populated areas than in cities. Anyway, at least we aren't arguing here, and glad to hear you like it there. Are you planning to be an American citizen if possible? If so, thats unfortunate as another vote for the other side for sure. And hey, if Canada was so great with its health care system and all, how come you came here?

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