Should the USA Annex Mexico?

Whenever i have completed the Department of Justice Immigration Form I-9, persuant to the provisions of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, i have always photocopied the documents presented, for all employees, without regard to any category.

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Setanta wrote:

I also continue to consider it an ironic historic justice that many people in the southwest complain about illegal immigrants, given that we stole that territory from Mexico.

i don't know enough about that to comment yet. for the moment i'll take it as reality.

if that's the case, there should also be some discussion of spain and portugal stealing everything south of california.

i mean, as far as i know, the aztecs and mayans didn't originate the spanish language. or portaguese..

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Setanta wrote:

It is entirely possible that the argument you discount applies in other areas than Milwaukee.

That may be. However, I don't see any evidence to the contrary. The fact that fastfood establishments near you are predominantly staffed by spanish speaking employees only means that they are staffed by spanish speaking employees. I have never heard of an area where a fast food restaurant (or any other business for that matter) was closed down for lack of willing employees.

I would also like to point out that fast food restaurants in more affluent communities are often staffed by the very kids of the affluent community where it resides. It is places like these where I might expect to hear of such jobs that americans don't want and find them staffed by those willing to work there. That simply isn't the case however and there seems to be no such shortage of rich white kids willing to make minimum wage in order to earn enough money to buy some beer on the weekend in these areas.

I wouldn't argue that some illegal immigrants may be more willing to work these sorts of jobs, but honestly see no evidence that they are the only ones willing to work those jobs.

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Your assumptions about fast food restaurants certainly doesn't apply in the Columbus, Ohio area.

My point, however, was, that given the stringent requirements of the Ohio New Hire Reporting Program, all of those Spanish-speakers were very likely to have been legal immigrants--it just is not worth it to attempt to employ anyone illegally in Ohio, if your operation is sufficiently large, such as nationally-placed corportation.

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Strawman, DTOM. I have not said that Spanish-speaking immigrants should be allowed to take over California and the Southwest--i just noted the irony.

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jpinMilwaukee wrote:

nimh wrote:
Some serious lack of basic human decency here.

Get off your high horse nimh.

No I bleedin well will not. I know from close-up how it is to have to live without a parent and I've seen (and now know) how it is to suddenly have to adapt to living in a country you've never been in before, or never for long. And the stuff I know from close-up was when I (or the other person) was way into the twenties, even thirty-something, and its still bloody painful. To demand that either of that is done to a whole category of kids because you're concerned about lowering the statistic of illegal immigrants from 6% to 5,1%, or whatever it is, is just plain shameful, period.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:

This is a silly ridiculous argument. You people and your fantasy view of utopia are seriously deluded. It sounds great to say "everyone should be treated with compassion" and I'm sure it helps you all fall asleep at night. To bad we live in the real world and sometimes bad things happen.

Well, in this case it is something bad that you people want to MAKE happen, and that dont NEED to happen - witness the compromise legislation currently being dealt with! By your own Senators. They all deluded utopians too?

So, no, no reason for people to just lay down and let you enforce such measures that are just plain cruel, when not doing them will hardly send waves of catastrophe through the country. That may be how you want the "real world" to be, but then there's people like us to stop the world from becoming all that brutal, thank you very much.

I mean, whats "utopian", for god's sake, about proposing a compromise where at least those who are born in the country are allowed to stay - with their parents if they're minors? The Spanish and Italian governments have declared amnesties that went a lot further still, and it hasnt sent their economy into collapse. Your Senate has just decided on legislation that will go plenty of ways to exactly this; and in fact, the business leaders your of country are actually in favour of such more flexible application of immigration laws. Are they utopian too?

The "utopian/do-gooder" putdown is such a red herring in the context we were talking about, its a purely rhetorical gag.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:

You have a choice to come here legally or illegally. If you choose illegally you may have to face the consequences of getting caught. [..] So if you get caught... to bad, so sad.

Well you were, I will remind you, talking about kids who were actually BORN in the States. They didnt do anything illegal, yet you want to punish them for their parents decision to seek a better life, by separating them from their parents or sending them to a country theyve never lived in (quite possibly never even been to).

jpinMilwaukee wrote:

This silly argument about thrusting poor innocent kids in an unfamiliar world is equally ridiculous. Their parents obviously lived in an unfamiliar world when they left behind their country and came here illegally... I don't see why the kids would have anymore difficult a time going the reverse direction.

Cause they're KIDS?

You seen the heartache it takes a kid to even move from state to state within the US, losing their friends, their school, their familiar surrounding? Now imagine them to be thrust into a country theyve never been in, where everything is different, where the school system is different (and they might even be set back years, having only gone to English-language primary, secondary school themselves), etc.

Lemme guess, youve never emigrated have you? Its a tough deal. OK, so those adults chose it. But this kid, you are deporting into that tough deal against everything he wants and without him ever having done anything wrong in the first place. Yeah, pretty easy to lecture about how, well, "they'll survive", from your comfy chair.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:

So again... stop deluding yourself, get off your high horse and try living in reality for once.

I will defend the reality I live in, thank you very mucj, where people are still able to show some basic decency and common empathy. Like the church folks who take care of asylum-seekers or the folk like my parents who've done their share in working for others - hell, wait, forget about even actively working for others, just at least not be actively pushing for the deportation of kids or the separation of families, that aint too much to ask from "reality", where I'm coming from!

In fact, I'm pretty sure that your attitude on this particular argument is actually in the minority - so you can stop preaching about "living in reality", and all. Plenty of folks out here doing fine "living in reality" without ardently wishing for foreign kids to be deported to countries theyve never been in, just ask at your local parish or something.

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JP.

Are you really making the argument that there are too many workers for the US economy?

George Bush doesn't say there are too many workers. Ted Kennedy doesn't say there are too many workers. Big business doesn't say there are too many workers. Small business doesn't say there are too many workers. Labor doesn't say there are too many workers.

The economists are saying there is no glut of labor and business

This is an anti-immigrant argument that is not supported by anyone except for the anti-immigrant people. The reason for my strong reaction is that this is another version of the immigrant menace argument which is especially inappropriate when it is not supported by the facts.

Of course-- workers who are vulnerable to exploitation lower wages.

But the McCain-Kennedy bill provides the workers that business needs, and empowers them to work legally meaning they will be in a better position to raise wages.

Even the House Republicans who believe that crossing the border is a dangerous crime worthy of harse punitive measures are talking about how to replace the workers they plan to deport, and most support a guest worker program.

I don't think this argument is logical at all.

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jpinMilwaukee wrote:

No where in this thread have I even mentioned the word "liberal."

No, you just went on about how us opponents of, you know, deporting illegal parents of American-born children, are deluded folks with a fantasy view of utopia who refuse to live in reality. Ronald Reagan would sure have been surprised to have been defined like that...

So yes, obviously, Set has a point: tho you havent used the word "liberal", you've been off-handedly implying that those who disagree with you on an issue like this (specifically: what to do with the illegal parents of children who were born or grew up here) are just utopian dreamers. When its easily enough to establish for someone claiming to be looking at this "objectively" that the range of people arguing for the exact same reaches far into completely different political orientations.

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Setanta wrote:

Strawman, DTOM. I have not said that Spanish-speaking immigrants should be allowed to take over California and the Southwest--i just noted the irony.

huh ? i was pointing out something i found equally ironic, nothing more.

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I know this is going to get me called names by the left,but here is the solution...

Illegal immigrants,from EVERY country,must be deported.
If they have overstayed their visa,deport them!!
If they are here on a student visa and are not students,deport them!!

I know for a fact that there are pregnant women that cross our southern border illegally and have their babies here in the US.
They do this because that gives the child US citizenship,and the govt wont break up a family.

Well,I say its time to.
If a woman crosses into the US illegally just to have a baby,we give her a choice...
The baby gets US citizenship,and gets taken away from her and the mother is deported,never to see the baby again,OR the baby does NOT get citizenship and both mother and baby are deported.

I have no problem with LEGAL immigration,but illegal immigration must be stopped.
If a family crosses into this cuntry illegally,they should be deported,not rewarded.

Some of you have mentioned families that have been here for years.
I dont care.
If the parents came in illegally,then ALL of their children are illegal,because they wouldnt be here if the parents had not broken the law.

ILLEGAL immigrants do not deserve to be rewarded for breaking the law,ands neither does anyone else that breaks the law.
If they want to enter this country,then let them do it legally.

We should also turn back any illegals that get caught crossing the southern border.
If they try and cross the desert to come here,then the border patrol should turn them around.
If they have no food and water when the border patrol finds them,then they get no food or water when the BP turns them around.
The food and water caches people have placed in the desert for the illegals should be found and destroyed.

ILLEGAL immigrants,no matter where they are from,must learn that there are consequences to their actions.

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

do you get it that, despite what bush says, we were not attacked on 9/11 by iraq, but by individuals; some of whom were here illegally and some of whom were on expired visas. and that thanks to a hamstringing of the n.i.s. and an immigration policy that is so widely disregarded that it's totally useless, multiple thousands of americans were killed that day ?

The terrorism / illegals link just doesnt fly. Some of the 9/11 attackers were not there illegally, I believe. You dont need an illegal to launch a terrorist attack like that at all. Hell, undercover Congress investigators easily managed to smuggle sufficient materials into the country to build a dirty bomb - and they even deliberately chose border crossings that were already fitted out with new radiation detectors. (Plenty of stories HERE).

As long as people with passports or visas can easily smuggle in stuff to set major US cities ablaze, clamping down on illegals does nothing for preventing terrorism.

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Not to mention that, prior to 9/11, the biggest terrorist attack on US soil was perpetrated by a US born, ex-military, citizen.

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Was Tom McVeigh ex-military? How about the uni-bomber?

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nimh wrote:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
do you get it that, despite what bush says, we were not attacked on 9/11 by iraq, but by individuals; some of whom were here illegally and some of whom were on expired visas. and that thanks to a hamstringing of the n.i.s. and an immigration policy that is so widely disregarded that it's totally useless, multiple thousands of americans were killed that day ?

The terrorism / illegals link just doesnt fly. Some of the 9/11 attackers were not there illegally, I believe. You dont need an illegal to launch a terrorist attack like that at all. Hell, undercover Congress investigators easily managed to smuggle sufficient materials into the country to build a dirty bomb - and they even deliberately chose border crossings that were already fitted out with new radiation detectors. (Plenty of stories HERE).

As long as people with passports or visas can easily smuggle in stuff to set major US cities ablaze, clamping down on illegals does nothing for preventing terrorism.

i didn't say they were all illegal, nimh. some were on expired visas.

that still means that they were in the u.s. illegally.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Not to mention that, prior to 9/11, the biggest terrorist attack on US soil was perpetrated by a US born, ex-military, citizen.

the operative word for me is "prior", ducks.

i don't see what's so bad about wanting to keep tabs on who is entering the country.

i'm not saying don't let anybody in, i'm just saying that they should come in through the front door and not sneak in through the basement in the middle of the night.

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Quote:

I know this is going to get me called names by the left,but here is the solution...

Illegal immigrants,from EVERY country,must be deported.
If they have overstayed their visa,deport them!!
If they are here on a student visa and are not students,deport them!!
...

If a woman crosses into the US illegally just to have a baby,we give her a choice...
The baby gets US citizenship,and gets taken away from her and the mother is deported,never to see the baby again,OR the baby does NOT get citizenship and both mother and baby are deported.

Quite the contrary MysteryMan... I won't call you any names. In fact I love the position you are taking.

We want you front and center in this debate. In fact, you should write that exact post to the editor of all your local papers.

Keep it up. You are doing a great job!

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ebrown_p wrote:

Quote:

I know this is going to get me called names by the left,but here is the solution...

Illegal immigrants,from EVERY country,must be deported.
If they have overstayed their visa,deport them!!
If they are here on a student visa and are not students,deport them!!
...

If a woman crosses into the US illegally just to have a baby,we give her a choice...
The baby gets US citizenship,and gets taken away from her and the mother is deported,never to see the baby again,OR the baby does NOT get citizenship and both mother and baby are deported.

Quite the contrary MysteryMan... I won't call you any names. In fact I love the position you are taking.

We want you front and center in this debate. In fact, you should write that exact post to the editor of all your local papers.

Keep it up. You are doing a great job!

I have written that aditorial to my local paper.

As someone that grew up on the border,I know firsthand the problems illegals cause.
You,living in your ivory tower fantasy world,seem to think that illegal aliens are no problem.

Why dont you ask the homeowners and property owners along the border that have been burglarized by illegal aliens.
You dont want to admit that there is a problem,because if you do your whole mindset and worldview will collapse.

Grow up,look at the situation,realize that there is a problem,and admit it.
Dont hide from it.

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I worked, and worked with, illegal aliens for years. I welcome their presence and hope nobody succeeds in stopping them.

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nimh,

I'll assume that you responded to my comments before you reached the part where outlined my proposal for Walter and which, for the most part, eb agreed with. I think you'll find that I'm not the inhumane monster you so shallowly think I am. If after reading my propoal you still think i am... well then I don't think there is anything more to be said to each other. However if you would like to discuss the merits of a plan as opposed to tugging on the heart-strings of the innocent children then I would be happy to discuss it further.

eb,

Even if there were no americans to do the jobs, illegal immigration isn't the answer. Use the legal channels and i will welcome you with open arms. Come here illegally and expect to be subject to our immigration laws. I thought that I had already made myself clear on this matter and that we had reached an understanding.

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Don't worry, edgar, no one will. The political posturing going on re this issue makes the ports deal look like amateur hour...

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Should the USA Annex Mexico?

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