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Is the story of Adam and Even real...or allegory?

Forums: Spirituality And Religion, Religion, Bible, Theology, Adam And Eve
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Mar, 2006 09:34 pm
Chumly wrote:
neologist wrote:
Chumly wrote:
We have a classic logical fallacy because as soon as this all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god applies his power so-called "selectively" he would no longer be an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god.
You will have to explain that.
Our all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god has decided to dumb himself down by selectively applying himself. As soon as he has done this he is no longer all powerful all knowing and omnipotent. It is a logical fallacy.

Remember though that the above must go hand in hand with my other post:
Chumly wrote:
It's not a question of obligation it's a question of premise: that being of an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god. To ply your anthropomorphic pretexts to an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god is rather the height of hubris, don't you think?
My two posts are part of one response to you, but got chopped up, like liver......mmm liver!
If you don't believe the bible there is no need for you to misrepresent its message so you may tell me you don't believe the misrepresentation. Just tell me you don't believe the bible and leave it at that.

If you identify God as the author of natural and moral law. If you understand that he has the power to do as he pleases. Where is the fallacy?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Mar, 2006 09:43 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
neologist wrote:
Does the term 'dead man walking' mean anything to you?


I'm tempted to say, no, because we don't have the death penalty, but the influence and/or knowledge of American culture is far more pervasive than some people are willing to admit.

Quote:
Adam and Eve lost their right to life on that very day. And, since a thousand years is as a day to God, they fell within that period of time as well.

BTW, the bible never mentions the end of the seventh creative day, does it?


Being sentenced to death, and being told that you will die that day, are two different things.

The words that God said are very clear. You will die the same day you eat the fruit. (And why on Earth do people think the forbidden fruit was an apple? I could have sworn that theologians had agreed that the fruit was a banana).

He didn't say, you will die spiritually. He didn't say, you will be condemned to death. He said, you will die. What's so hard to understand about that?
And they died. If they had not sinned, they would still be alive. I don't see the contradiction.

Also, I refuse to be drawn into the bananian controversy. Though I understand it is still in the appel-ate courts.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Mar, 2006 09:52 pm
Chumly wrote:
. . .
You could have just as easily said "Take away that freedom and you take away lawnmowers."

In fact, I would tend to argue (if anything) the exact opposite of your contention that free will exists in the context of an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent personal Christian god. Why? Because if you ascribe anything to god on any interventionist basis (of which I might add the bible is rife with) then the question of free will is dubious at best.
God either has free will or is subject to some deterministic principle. If he is subject to any deterministic principle, how could he be all powerful?

Conversely, if the bible describes God as all powerful, then he must not be subject to anything else.

Why does that pose a conundrum?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Mar, 2006 10:02 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEDIENCE. . . . And you folks are being laughable about rationalizing that they did...when the Bible and your god both indicate otherwise. . .
If they didn't think there was anything wrong, why did they cover themselves? Why did they fear to face God? And why did they play the blame game in Genesis 3: 8-13?

You may say it quietly, Frank. I'll set the screen to higher resolution.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Mar, 2006 10:20 pm
neologist wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
So, is your god omnipotent?
Doktor S wrote:
Neo's god, if I am not mistaken, tempers his omnicience with the nebulous concept of freewill.
The idea of God not having free will doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

His name, Jehovah, means 'he who causes to become'.


So, what does this mean to you?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Mar, 2006 10:31 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
neologist wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
So, is your god omnipotent?
Doktor S wrote:
Neo's god, if I am not mistaken, tempers his omnicience with the nebulous concept of freewill.
The idea of God not having free will doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

His name, Jehovah, means 'he who causes to become'.


So, what does this mean to you?
We've been over this before. But the first time I didn't realize what you were getting at. The concept of omniscience implies necessity. That would not make sense in the realm of free will. You may have the power to read the last page of the whodunit; but does it make sense for you to do so?

A similar argument may apply to the concept of omnipotence. Would it be reasonable for the world's greatest speller to c-o-n-s-t-a-n-t-l-y s-p-e-l-l e-v-e-r-y w-o-r-d?

SeewhatImean?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Mar, 2006 10:35 pm
neo wrote:
SeewhatImean?


In all honesty, no.

They're all just rationalizations to deal with the paradox of the idea of omnipotence.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Mar, 2006 10:35 pm
Re: Is the story of Adam and Even real...or allegory?
Frank Apisa wrote:
Moishe3rd wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Moishe3rd wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Moishe3rd wrote:
How did Man go from stupid to smart overnight?


They didn't...and some are not particularly "smart" yet.

Okay.
I was writing in terms of "evolutionary time," but you still beg the question.
How did Man become intelligent somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago when there is absolutely no evidence that Homo Sapiens or hominids were any more advanced than monkeys for the previous 100,000 to 5,000,000 years before that?
How about some logical supposition?
Aliens?
Giant Meteor Impact?
What?


Most of the evidence indicates a gradual human development...both physically...and philosophically.

Hmmm. A rather sharp curve, wouldn't you say?
Flat horizontal line for 5 million years and then at our tail end here - straight up at a 90 degree angle.
I wouldn't call that gradual, either physically or philosophically.
Why would you call that gradual?
Quote:
If you think the only way to explain what has happened during the last 5000 - 10000 years is the intervention of a god...you simply are not especially imaginative.

No, no. I can imagine many things - from time travel to aliens to weird mind altering viruses. Why not? The universe is filled with a number of wonderful things.
It's the "overnight" change that I find odd.
Quote:
There is no way a god is NECESSARY to explain anything on this planet.

I agree 100%. But He is a bit of a more logical explanation than the "Oops" theory of man's possible evolutionary change. The accidental, random theory of No Cause does not give us this sudden rise in "intelligent man."
Quote:
By the way...a huge, huge majority of all the scientists who have ever lived on planet Earth...are living here now.
Do you suppose a god is necessary to explain that

Again, not at all. But I certainly think G-d is one possible logical explanation for this fact.
Having read much creation philosophy and mythology, I happen to believe that Adom and Chava make the most sense but, I am prejudiced.
Nonetheless, Random Chance makes no sense whatsoever.


The change was gradual...albeit developing in a geometric progression. That was the point of my comment about the scientists now working.

But if you need to "believe" in a god...and if you need to delude yourself that random chance makes no sense...

...do so. I wish you the best of luck with it.

Yes. I know you do. And that's why you're such a likeable curmudgeon, in spite of yourself.
But really. I favor logic. Reason. Intelligent deduction.
Now, I must admit to my personal quirks on what I have finally settled on as the most rational explanation, but still, I have threshed the points out over my life and I find G-d makes sense.
I would be interested in your take on this "geometric progression" in some what of a more mathematical or visual formula.
I can still go "hmmm, that makes sense," even as I stick to my happy delusions.
However, with my limited math ability, I still cannot grasp a geometric curve that would act along the timeline of Homo Sapien or hominids...
Seriously. A little help. Please. Confused
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:08 am
The story of Adam and Eve can be considered as an allegory, a just-so story, or a creation myth, but it is not literally true. Some of the giveaways are the talking snake, magical fruit, logical contradictions, and incongruity with biological, genetic, and anthropological facts (which they did not know at the time).

Adam and Eve could not know that their actions or the consequences were "bad" BEFORE they ate the fruit; God could have given Adam and Eve more obedient personalities or the willpower to resist temptation, made the fruit less desirable, put it somewhere else, made the serpent less intelligent than Adam and Eve or simply not let it near them, or he could have told them the truth that they and their descendents would be severely punished for choosing wisdom over ignorance, instead of the lie that eating the fruit would kill them; and it is unjust to punish billions of people for something they did not do.

Moishe3rd wrote:
How did Man become intelligent somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago when there is absolutely no evidence that Homo Sapiens or hominids were any more advanced than monkeys for the previous 100,000 to 5,000,000 years before that?
How about some logical supposition?
Aliens?
Giant Meteor Impact?
What?

It is hard to make a case that man ever became intelligent when you consider the ignorance displayed by many posters here. <sigh>

We have evidence that hominids were making and using stone tools millions of years ago and gradually improved on them, fire for a million (homo erectus), and art for at least 30,000 years (cave paintings). Monkeys never did any of that.

Human cultural development accelerated after the end of the last ice age (about 10,000 years ago) when the invention of agriculture allowed settlements with their attendant need for new social structures. link
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:13 am
neologist wrote:
If you don't believe the bible there is no need for you to misrepresent its message so you may tell me you don't believe the misrepresentation. Just tell me you don't believe the bible and leave it at that.
A bit of anthropomorphic hubris again, unless you are claiming to know the mind of god?
neologist wrote:
God either has free will or is subject to some deterministic principle. If he is subject to any deterministic principle, how could he be all powerful?

Conversely, if the bible describes God as all powerful, then he must not be subject to anything else.

Why does that pose a conundrum?
Because in order for a god to be all-powerful all-knowing and omnipotent he must be able to dumb himself down or as you say "apply his power selectively" and in the process of doing so he is no longer all-powerful all-knowing and omnipotent, hence the logical fallacy.

Unless you are going to suggest to me that god runs an infinite number of universes simultaneously with all the possible permutations.

As soon as god "applies his power selectively" he must by default limit himself and hence by default cannot be an all-powerful all-knowing and omnipotent god The only way he can maintain being an all-powerful all-knowing and omnipotent god is by never doing anything.

I should also add that your precept of "applying his power selectively" hints strongly as anthropomorphism, unless you are willing to argue that you know the mind of god.
neologist wrote:
Actually, you can't explain that because God's omnipotence implies free will. Take away that freedom and you take away omnipotence.
You have provided no logical proof that god's so-called omnipotence implies free will. When you say "Take away that freedom and you take away omnipotence." I assume that to mean you are contending that god is all powerful all knowing and omnipotent. Sadly you have made no logical congruent correlation between your belief in god's powers and the premise of free will with your above quoted statement.

In fact, I would tend to argue (if anything) the exact opposite of your contention that free will exists in the context of an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent personal Christian god. Why? Because if you ascribe anything to god on any interventionist basis i.e. Adam & Eve, floods, apocalypse, then the question of free will is dubious at best.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:30 am
Chumly wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Many of you need to go back to sunday school.
Rather presumptuous assertion based simply because some are in disagreement with your contentions.

Or are you suggesting that sunday school has all the answers?

What about Peretz School? Is that then inconsequential in your myopic presumption?


You would know what I meant by "sunday school" had you been there...

Sunday school to me is where basic love of God and Jesus is fostered in young children. Where old lady grandmother types who would otherwise be falling asleep in church take care of the children during service and teach them some of the milder stories of the Bible and wink and smile at you allot.

What could be more to learn in life than to love and respect God and believe in yourself and your God given spiritual ability to do great things...

Yet to appreciate the word of God is fundamental to understanding the tree of life and discernment between good and evil... It takes spirit to discern spirit.

Could Adam and Eve discern spirits? If they had the image of God within them then they had a comparative role model within them with which to draw logical conclusions. Was this model perfect? Was this image/model clearly seen of God? Was it credible? Did they know one spirit from another? How do we "know" the one true God, the breath of life, the ghost within?
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:39 am
The only thing I learnt in Sunday school was the meaning of Hell. On earth.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:53 am
InfraBlue wrote:
neo wrote:
SeewhatImean?


In all honesty, no.

They're all just rationalizations to deal with the paradox of the idea of omnipotence.
Well, the word 'omnipotent' is a non biblical word often used to describe the nature of God. If it doesn't fit, perhaps we shouldn't use it.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 02:03 am
RexRed wrote:
You would know what I meant by "sunday school" had you been there...
Are you saying that I would know what you mean if I had gone to your Sunday school and that if I had gone to your Sunday school that I would agree with everything you have said?

If so that is rather the height of hubris.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 02:05 am
You are bringing forth an avalanche of words, my dear chumly. Can we take just a smidgen?
Chumly wrote:
. . You have provided no logical proof that god's so-called omnipotence implies free will. When you say "Take away that freedom and you take away omnipotence." I assume that to mean you are contending that god is all powerful all knowing and omnipotent. Sadly you have made no logical congruent correlation between your belief in god's powers and the premise of free will with your above quoted statement.
. . . .
Either God has free will or he is subject to necessity. Which will it be?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 02:14 am
Your question predicates two things:

1) That Neo does or Neo can know the mind of god.

2) My assertion that you are anthropomorphizing god so as to delineate your precepts of god.

It's not that I won't answer (I will) but I need first know that you understand how I see your question so you can understand the context of my answer.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 02:22 am
Frank,

Let's talk about values...

Not necessarily values in the sense of right and wrong but how much weight we put on things...

How much do we value this versus that...

For instance every scripture in the Bible is subject to these value judgments.

Some look at the whole Bible and devalue it... they say it is full of contradictions and a cartoon myth.

Even though they devalue the whole thing they do value certain parts.

Like the parts where they can stick it to God. Where maybe the translation is not so clear, culturally enigmatic or basic spiritual depravity becomes rule of the day. Then YOU can point a finger at God with these scriptures and the jury will most certainly convict this guilty God which you have rushed to judge...

Yet if ONE word were to vindicate this God in this book... if one word were to justify his actions and methods then Frank you respond, "Well this is not the WORD OF GOD anyway." How do you KNOW this? So these rare gems in the church epistles of such descriptive elegance telling of a God that over time proved himself as a loving being are not admissible as evidence?

Does the testimony by the apostles of God's love carry any weight/value? Does it matter what anyone has said or seen of God to you? You throw your old testament scriptures as if they carry weight and I throw my new testament scriptures, that carry weight because they are a resolution to your misunderstanding. The "new testament" means, a new testament with God...

Yet your tunnel vision "values" only allow for you to drive your blade into the cracks of the Bible's vulnerabilities so you can drive in your wedge of division. Do you only value the hatred of God? It is not that I do not question God but I also trust in God...

Also,
The only errors in the Bible are in our understanding of it...

Frank, do you not see God the way you do because of the way you value only "certain" scriptures. Do you think you know enough about the scope of the Bible to extrapolate only certain verses and magnify them above all else. Are you sure you are not valuing the wrong things? How can you ever know when your whole purpose is to prove knowledge is futile? There is a reason why the word KNOW is the the word knowledge... Knowledge is the seed of knowing...

Smile
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 02:22 am
Actually I have no idea where you are going with your brain, Chumly. If you are unable to see that necessity (determinism) is incompatible with free will, then we either need to redefine our terms or get drunk.

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/cheers.gif

G'night.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 02:27 am
There seems to be some confusion here. The free will I was referring to was man's free will vis-a-vis god's interventionism and not god's free will of which I simply stated that is a logical fallacy for an all-powerful all-knowing omnipotent god to dumb down or as you put it "apply his power selectively" and still be all-powerful all-knowing omnipotent god.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 02:32 am
Chumly wrote:
RexRed wrote:
You would know what I meant by "sunday school" had you been there...
Are you saying that I would know what you mean if I had gone to your Sunday school and that if I had gone to your Sunday school that I would agree with everything you have said?

If so that is rather the height of hubris.


Where did I say anything about MY sunday school? How about if you start with the sunday school of Jesus Christ? The sunday school of the first century Christian church. They taught their children of Christ Jesus too...
0 Replies
 
 

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