Is the story of Adam and Even real...or allegory?

OK just for you I will rephrase it.

RexRed wrote:

You would know what I meant by "sunday school" had you been there...

Are you saying that I would know what you mean if I had gone to the Sunday school you think most suited and that if I had gone to the Sunday school you think most suited that I would agree with everything you have said?

If so that is rather the height of hubris.

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Chumly wrote:

OK just for you I will rephrase it.
RexRed wrote:
You would know what I meant by "sunday school" had you been there...
Are you saying that I would know what you mean if I had gone to the Sunday school you think most suited and that if I had gone to the Sunday school you think most suited that I would agree with everything you have said?

If so that is rather the height of hubris.

In a simple answer, yes...

We would agree if we both had the same school.

Now if the world had the same school/frame of reference the world would agree amongst themselves and we would all have unity of mind and therefore peace would reign supreme over the earth.

But when everyone is learning from a different "school" of thought based on an infinity of frames then unity of mind and spirit is rare and war is often present.

If two people "study" solely the Bible they will in the end come to the same ideas and beliefs over time.

This is the wisdom of God that one finds in the word of God...

We start as children spiritually fed on only the milk of "the word" and we grow over time to gradually digest harder foods.

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Comment: ONE MIND

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RedRex,
That is one of the most frightening posts I have read in a long time.

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RexRed,
That would imply that we would both take from this the same thing in the same way. Where is the evidence to suggest this would be the case? Sounds like more hubris.

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flushd wrote:

RedRex,
That is one of the most frightening posts I have read in a long time.

I'm glad you see it that way, You are alive again... Smile

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Chumly wrote:

RexRed,
That would imply that we would both take from this the same thing in the same way. Where is the evidence to suggest this would be the case? Sounds like more hubris.

Mathematical evidence. If we all draw from the same rule than our geometry will line up and become compliments to the whole structure. How do we measure the length and breadth of God when God is all things? We need to start at the same points in a liner fashion and move away from the center dividing the unknown in quadrants that we can all plot our courses of life through utilizing a meaningful standard...

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEDIENCE. . . . And you folks are being laughable about rationalizing that they did...when the Bible and your god both indicate otherwise. . .
If they didn't think there was anything wrong, why did they cover themselves? Why did they fear to face God? And why did they play the blame game in Genesis 3: 8-13?

You may say it quietly, Frank. I'll set the screen to higher resolution.

TRY TO KEEP UP, NEO.

THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEDIENCE BEFORE THEY ATE OF THE FRUIT IN THIS SILLY, SILLY ALLEGORY.

BEFORE!!!!

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Yes. I know you do. And that's why you're such a likeable curmudgeon, in spite of yourself.
But really. I favor logic. Reason. Intelligent deduction.
Now, I must admit to my personal quirks on what I have finally settled on as the most rational explanation, but still, I have threshed the points out over my life and I find G-d makes sense.
I would be interested in your take on this "geometric progression" in some what of a more mathematical or visual formula.
I can still go "hmmm, that makes sense," even as I stick to my happy delusions.
However, with my limited math ability, I still cannot grasp a geometric curve that would act along the timeline of Homo Sapien or hominids...
Seriously. A little help. Please.

I am delighted that Terry is here. She will do a much, much better job of answering your questions than I.

As for the timeline that gets us from primordial ooze to where we are now...my suggestion would be to stop thinking of "where we are now" with some objective that "existence" had "in mind" at the time of the primordial ooze.

We happen to be here...but "where we are" is a fairly random place. We could be many, many other things than what we are...and given an infinite number of starts from primordial ooze...with the passage of a similar period of time...the "end" could be quite different.

See if this (admittedly defective) analogy helps with understanding that.

If you were to take a randomly shuffled deck of cards and record its order...and then reshuffle and continue the record of the order...and do that 1000 times...you would have a list of order of cards 52,000 in number.

It was arrived at randomly.

If someone were to look at that list and see its complexity...and conclude that randomly duplicating that list would have odds of billions to one against it happening...that would not change the fact that this original list WAS arrived at randomly.

While the chances of events going randomly from primordial ooze to what now exists here on planet Earth are astronomical...to suppose that it cannot happen randomly because of those astronomical odds is a mathematical and logical error.

Essentially I am saying that if evolution or progression is somehow a naturally occurring thing...then evolving and progressing ooze will eventually end up somewhere. To look at the "somewhere" and suppose that because the number of steps to arrive from that beginning to this "end" is massive...it could not occur randomly...is simply illogical thinking.

I am not going to get very deeply into this, Moishe. I know the limits of my abilities in these areas...and I will leave it to Terry to deal with some of the questions you have. And I honestly have come to the conclusion that most of the "believing" being done by thesist is not predicated on intellectual and logical musings at all....and all the logic and intellectualization in the world is going to change some of the "beliefs" borne by people arguing here. (Maybe not you!)

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEDIENCE. . . . And you folks are being laughable about rationalizing that they did...when the Bible and your god both indicate otherwise. . .
If they didn't think there was anything wrong, why did they cover themselves? Why did they fear to face God? And why did they play the blame game in Genesis 3: 8-13?

You may say it quietly, Frank. I'll set the screen to higher resolution.

TRY TO KEEP UP, NEO.

THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEDIENCE BEFORE THEY ATE OF THE FRUIT IN THIS SILLY, SILLY ALLEGORY.

BEFORE!!!!

Frank are you saying they were sinning all along but they never knew it? Is that really your idea of paradise?

Could they have possibly have lived so perfectly with nature that they never sinned. If you only do good you have nothing to contrast good with. Do you need a conscience if you never sin?

If you live in harmony with God and nature there is never any transgression.

If you think about it, Adam and Eve were placed in the garden with a snake. This only says that before Eden sin existed, not in humans but certain created spirit beings. This would explain the lesser forms of creatures that came from a fall of evolution. Snakes being some of the oldest creatures on the earth yet still the least evolved shape.

Humans were God's plan to rid the world of the sin that came before us. As you can see Eden was a complete failure.

Adam and Eve never knew the feeling of sin or had a conscious thought that it existed. That does not mean they were sinning. Considering they were in God's favor they were probably not sinning.

Yet there were other voices that spoke in the garden.

To contrast this with Jesus who had witnessed sin all of his life an still had to remain completely obedient to God. Where Adam and Eve had never been told by God that they had ever sinned until they ate from the tree of knowledge they seemed to create sin out of their natural state of living... They saw themselves as naked of spirit and instead of being clothed in the image of God they artificially covered themselves to hide what they had lost inside. Innocence...

This tree started with doubt toward God... and grew into treason and ultimately shame.

The beginnings of paganism plants it's seed where Adam and Eve began to listen to multiple "voices" or frames/images of knowledge and learning... They placed these others (even the snake) in the same importance and value with the form/image of God... Their carnal desires overrode the simple truth...

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What I am saying, Rex, is that the Bible...and your god...indicate that before eating the fruit...ADAM AND EVE DID NOT KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG...GOOD FROM EVIL.

The point of the story is that they did not know.

But you have never been much for the actual words written in the Bible...unless they suit your purposes...and when they don't, you are willing to make the word "white" mean "black."

Adam and Eve...according to the words in the Bible...did not know good from evil. The god, as I have pointed out several times already...indicates that (after eating of the fruit)..."now they are as us...knowing good from evil."

This entire argument on the theistic side is pitiful.

I have seldom felt this much pity for you people for having to twist and contort logic and reason in your fears of offending this digusting, unworthy god.

I pity you.

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Frank, I agree totally that they did not know right from wrong. So unless they were told what was expected of them by their Creator, then they could have no way of knowing what was right or wrong.

This God did. He told them not to eat of the one tree. With God's instruction to them, they had knowledge of what they were not to do (wrong). Yet they chose to do it anyway, and were thus given an inner knowledge (conscience, if you will) of what is right and wrong.

Hope this makes sense.

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Chumly wrote:

There seems to be some confusion here. The free will I was referring to was man's free will vis-a-vis god's interventionism and not god's free will of which I simply stated that is a logical fallacy for an all-powerful all-knowing omnipotent god to dumb down or as you put it "apply his power selectively" and still be all-powerful all-knowing omnipotent god.

The logical fallacy comes from our definition of terms.

The Hebrew words ´Eh·yeh´ ´Asher´ ´Eh·yeh´, found at Exodus 3:14 and often translated 'I am that I am', are more appropriately rendered 'I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be' or 'I shall become . . .' The point is that God is able to become whatever is necessary to accomplish his purpose.

This would define what we mean when we say that God is perfect. He measures up to the standards he has set, not the standards that we might set.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

TRY TO KEEP UP, NEO.

THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEDIENCE BEFORE THEY ATE OF THE FRUIT IN THIS SILLY, SILLY ALLEGORY.

BEFORE!!!!

Can you think of any words more cautionary than telling someone their very life depends on obedience?

It is very convenient to believe that the Genesis story proves Adam and Eve to have been duped by God and that Satan told the truth. It provides us with moral license. But that is not what is being told.

You may dismiss it as allegory if it suits you. That is YOUR choice. But no font size will change the meaning of the words.

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CoastalRat wrote:

Frank, I agree totally that they did not know right from wrong. So unless they were told what was expected of them by their Creator, then they could have no way of knowing what was right or wrong.

This God did. He told them not to eat of the one tree. With God's instruction to them, they had knowledge of what they were not to do (wrong). Yet they chose to do it anyway, and were thus given an inner knowledge (conscience, if you will) of what is right and wrong.

Hope this makes sense.

No, it does not make sense. The Bible specifically says that they DID NOT know of good/evil prior to eating the fruit, and therefore had no way to know that it was "wrong" to believe what the snake told them. The snake, as it happens, told them the truth. God did not. Why is it considered "right" by Christians to reject the truth and accept the lies of those in authority?

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neologist wrote:

Can you think of any words more cautionary than telling someone their very life depends on obedience?

It is very convenient to believe that the Genesis story proves Adam and Eve to have been duped by God and that Satan told the truth. It provides us with moral license. But that is not what is being told.

But as the snake correctly told them, it was NOT TRUE that their lives depended on obedience to God, only their innocence. How were they to know who to believe? Why didn't God warn them that he would make all of their descendents suffer, whether or not each child would have chosen wisdom over ignorance if given a similar test?

Accepting the truth does not give us moral license, it makes us responsible to think for ourselves and reject the authority of those who make immoral demands such as persecuting others in the name of God.

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CoastalRat wrote:

Frank, I agree totally that they did not know right from wrong. So unless they were told what was expected of them by their Creator, then they could have no way of knowing what was right or wrong.

This God did. He told them not to eat of the one tree. With God's instruction to them, they had knowledge of what they were not to do (wrong). Yet they chose to do it anyway, and were thus given an inner knowledge (conscience, if you will) of what is right and wrong.

Hope this makes sense.

The god: If you eat the fruit of this tree, yer gonna die.

Adam: Wow...if we eat the fruit of this tree, we're gonna die. I wonder what that's like?

Eve: Dunno. Let's eat of it and find out.

Adam: Okay.

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
TRY TO KEEP UP, NEO.

THEY DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEDIENCE BEFORE THEY ATE OF THE FRUIT IN THIS SILLY, SILLY ALLEGORY.

BEFORE!!!!
Can you think of any words more cautionary than telling someone their very life depends on obedience?

It is very convenient to believe that the Genesis story proves Adam and Eve to have been duped by God and that Satan told the truth. It provides us with moral license. But that is not what is being told.

You may dismiss it as allegory if it suits you. That is YOUR choice. But no font size will change the meaning of the words.

You are right...the words have meaning...and your attempts to change the meaning is bizarre.

If you do not know right from wrong...no amount of "cautionary" talk is going to make any sense to you.

They did not know right from wrong. They did not know that disobeying was evil.

From the story...there is absolutely no reason to suppose they were afraid of anything...including death.

The "cautionary message" was empty under those circumstances.

And, apparently they were going to die anyway...because the god wanted them immediately cast out of the garden lest they eat of the tree of life...and gain immortality. Apparently they did not actually yet have that gift. Apparently, they were so anxious to go to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they didn't have time to eat of the other trees first.

(Genesis 3:22..."The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.)

This is a terribly flawed allegory. That modern day humans treat it as a true story...or treat it as anything other than a remakably defective allegory...is a testament to the fact that NASA ought concentrate on trying to find intelligence on this planet before searching the rest of the universe.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:
Frank, I agree totally that they did not know right from wrong. So unless they were told what was expected of them by their Creator, then they could have no way of knowing what was right or wrong.

This God did. He told them not to eat of the one tree. With God's instruction to them, they had knowledge of what they were not to do (wrong). Yet they chose to do it anyway, and were thus given an inner knowledge (conscience, if you will) of what is right and wrong.

Hope this makes sense.

The god: If you eat the fruit of this tree, yer gonna die.

Adam: Wow...if we eat the fruit of this tree, we're gonna die. I wonder what that's like?

Eve: Dunno. Let's eat of it and find out.

Adam: Okay.

What makes you so sure Adam and Eve did not know what death was? Adam had been around a long time - long enough to name the animals. Yet you read the account as if they had just fallen off the proverbial turnip truck.

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So Neo, you're discussin' this silly, silly topic as though Adam and Eve actually existed, under the ludicrous conditions decribed in Genesis . . . you good buddies with Bishop Ussher? You buy that whole 6000 year crap, and the world-wide flood, and all the other primitive fairy tales?

I'm just curious because it is always so fascinating to see the pathological character of a mind capable of deep, rational thought, and perverted by an obsessive devotion to a silly belief set . . .

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This is how I see what's going on right now:

Those that believe God is telling the truth in the story of Adam and Eve and Satan is lying: ................are wrong and are pretty much idiots.

Those that do not believe God in the story of Adam and Eve but believe Satan is the one telling the truth ..............are the only intelligent beings on earth as it seem THEY are the only ones that have the answers right.

Now, is that what is going on here? It sure seems like it.

This WAS a good discussion between some people that had some very valid points and were sharing them and explaining them. It IS now a let's bash the imaginary friend believers thread and it's sickening.

And yes, I am most definitely including myself in this admonishment or whatever you want to call it.

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Is the story of Adam and Even real...or allegory?

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