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Is the story of Adam and Even real...or allegory?

 
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 07:17 pm
neologist wrote:
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
neologist wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
I see no one decided to reply to my question, because if they did, they will see that even the definition of dying spiritualy does not match what happened when Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
Adam and Eve did die spiritually in the sense that they lost their moral perfection. Is that what you meant?


If Adam and Eve ate from the fruit (which you call it "sin"), they didn't have this "moral perfection" in the first place.
You probably think they didn't have free will, either.



If you're possibly telling me that free will was the MAIN cause for their "moral imperfection," don't you think they were not "perfect" to begin with? And what is perfection anyway? If they both were "morally perfect," why did they even sin?

(Apply all the logic you want, neo. It just doesn't make any sense.)
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 07:34 pm
Hey neologist,
I want my dog & pony show, I paid for the admission already.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 07:44 pm
Sorry, Chum.

I was so sure that the mortality of animals was self evident.

I was so sure that because animals have no concept of infinite time, no free will and because they were placed under man's stewardship, that my point would be obvious.

Shows that I am not as smart as I thought.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 07:54 pm
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
neologist wrote:
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
neologist wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
I see no one decided to reply to my question, because if they did, they will see that even the definition of dying spiritualy does not match what happened when Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
Adam and Eve did die spiritually in the sense that they lost their moral perfection. Is that what you meant?


If Adam and Eve ate from the fruit (which you call it "sin"), they didn't have this "moral perfection" in the first place.
You probably think they didn't have free will, either.



If you're possibly telling me that free will was the MAIN cause for their "moral imperfection," don't you think they were not "perfect" to begin with? And what is perfection anyway? If they both were "morally perfect," why did they even sin?

(Apply all the logic you want, neo. It just doesn't make any sense.)
A good definition of the word 'perfect' in this sense would be 'completely suited to the purpose for which it was intended'. It may seem illogical that they would willfully give up their moral perfection. But, in effect, they did.
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 08:00 pm
neologist wrote:
Sorry, Chum.

I was so sure that the mortality of animals was self evident.

I was so sure that because animals have no concept of infinite time, no free will and because they were placed under man's stewardship, that my point would be obvious.

Shows that I am not as smart as I thought.


Animals don't have free will? If a dog wants to bite you, and then bites you...did it do it because an external force got inside its head and told it to?

(I hope you meant that animals don't have self-awareness.)
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 08:05 pm
neologist wrote:
A good definition of the word 'perfect' in this sense would be 'completely suited to the purpose for which it was intended'.


Exactly.

neologist wrote:
It may seem illogical that they would willfully give up their moral perfection. But, in effect, they did.


And yet they did.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 09:23 pm
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
neologist wrote:
Sorry, Chum.

I was so sure that the mortality of animals was self evident.

I was so sure that because animals have no concept of infinite time, no free will and because they were placed under man's stewardship, that my point would be obvious.

Shows that I am not as smart as I thought.


Animals don't have free will? If a dog wants to bite you, and then bites you...did it do it because an external force got inside its head and told it to?

(I hope you meant that animals don't have self-awareness.)
Funny you should say that.

Considering the large number of a2kers who don't believe people have free will. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:02 pm
"CANNONBALL!!!"


Even though you could reason that free will is not really "free", we still experience it that way. Is there any reason to think that other animals do not?
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:10 pm
The Neonator,
Quote:

I was so sure that because animals have no concept of infinite time, no free will and because they were placed under man's stewardship, that my point would be obvious.

Assuming the dubious concept of freewill for a moment, what is your biblical support for animals not possessing it?
Question...do you own a pet?


Also, can you honestly tell me you can conceive of 'infinite' time?
If so, how can you be sure there are no other animals on earth that can?
This whole direction seems highly problematic.
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:33 pm
neologist wrote:
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
neologist wrote:
Sorry, Chum.

I was so sure that the mortality of animals was self evident.

I was so sure that because animals have no concept of infinite time, no free will and because they were placed under man's stewardship, that my point would be obvious.

Shows that I am not as smart as I thought.


Animals don't have free will? If a dog wants to bite you, and then bites you...did it do it because an external force got inside its head and told it to?

(I hope you meant that animals don't have self-awareness.)
Funny you should say that.

Considering the large number of a2kers who don't believe people have free will. Rolling Eyes


What is free will, neo?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 10:39 pm
Isn't free will being able to make the choice between right and wrong?

Animals go by instinct or by training.
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 11:05 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Isn't free will being able to make the choice between right and wrong?


Is it, MA? I always thought that knowing the difference between what is "wrong" and what is "right" constitutes to human awareness.

Isn't "free will," by any chance, doing what we desire without outside influence?

Momma Angel wrote:
Animals go by instinct or by training. [/color]


We could train them, yeah, we could make them do what we want.

But regardless of instinct, can't animals choose what they want to eat, sleep, the place to take a crap, etc?


(And what is "right" and what is "wrong"?)
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 11:36 pm
Quote:
Also, can you honestly tell me you can conceive of 'infinite' time?


Thank you, Mister Doktor.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 11:50 pm
Frank Wrote:

Quote:
You have not disrupted my day in any way, Heph. I enjoy talking to you...and I enjoy your take on things. Obviously, we disagree on substantial issues...but so what!

I am just having a bit of trouble figuring out what you are asking of me here.

If you want to just drop it for now...no problem. When Neo gets back...you can listen in on the discussion...and comment at that time.


Yeah, let's just drop it. Well it's been dropped actually. I was having a moment there. I don't think it was a senior moment. Hmmm... I couldn't have been a blonde moment... LOL Heck I don't know what it was. Not important anymore though. I do enjoy your take on things as well and talking to you. So we'll see where this one leads us. Thanks for cutting me some slack on this one. I do appreciate it.
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 11:53 pm
MA wrote:

Animals go by instinct or by training.


Yes, including the human one.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 11:56 pm
Ok, Neo, would you explain what free will is (I know you've done it before) but, can you give the abridged version?
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Mar, 2006 11:59 pm
Dok... the human and animal instinct are the same?
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:09 am
How come no one ever asks me a question? I have expert knowledge, too, ya' know. Am I not enough of a bad boy for you ladies? Am I too stiff?

Whatever. I don't care.
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:11 am
I would say instinct varies from animal to animal depending on the evolution of that particular species.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:12 am
echi wrote:
How come no one ever asks me a question? I have expert knowledge, too, ya' know. Am I not enough of a bad boy for you ladies? Am I too stiff?

Whatever. I don't care.

If I were gay i'd totally do you, you big throbbing hunk of man meat.
0 Replies
 
 

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