Is the story of Adam and Even real...or allegory?

Lightwizard wrote:

It's not intelligent design, it's wacky design. If "it" really knew what it was doing, it would not have designed this planet. Maybe this is a prototype and he is still working on getting the bugs out? (Well, there is a the fact that insects outnumber any other animal life). It begins with the ridiculous notion that Adam and Eve existed and why, pray tell, would it be in the Mesopotamian valley instead of the Yellow River? The locale is ironic -- isn't it?

You, of course, being more intelligent than God could have done it better.

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Quote:

Yes, we already know that the tree was there, and what is was for, despite your argument about Adam and Steve getting to choose the tree. And no they had no choice because the outcome was already known. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. It's self contradictory. No chance of any other outcome, mean no choice for any other outcome. It is simply a distinction without a difference.

Come on chumly surely you can do better than this. So then you are saying, just so we're perfectly clear on this, that if the outcome is known there is absolutely no choice in the matter... So if I know the outcome of you standing in the middle of a busy street during rush hour is going to get you hit by the 3:00 bus, you really don't have any choice in the matter. You are just going to be there and SPLAT! Dang... I'm more powerful than I thought!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Pauligirl Wrote:

[quote]So, God actually caused man to sin by placing a restriction upon him which served no other purpose but to cause him to sin? And then punished all humankind for it.

Wow. P

Uh, no. That's not what I said nor implied. God did not cause anyone to sin. If someone leaves a peach pie on your dining room table and tells you not to eat it because it's for a party later and you eat it anyway, who is responsibile for you eating it? Your friend for leaving it or you for making the CHOICE to eat it?

The only difference in this scenario is that your friend doesn't know you actually will eat the pie. God knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit. BUT if He had removed the tree he would have removed their CHOICE to decide what they wanted. If He had removed the tree He would have made them virtual robots. They would have no choice. They would have just as they were. Naked and walking in the garden with the animals and that's pretty much it.

What is this anyway? I thought a bunch of you out there were all for choice? :wink: [/color][/quote]Sorry, MA, you could not be more wrong. God did not know Adam and Eve would eat the fruit. That doesn't mean he did not have the capacity to know. But the essential element of our free will is that God has chosen to keep from himself the final outcome of our decisions. Otherwise the command to repent would have no meaning, and the offering of choice would be empty.

I thought the little wink emoticon in your post meant you were being facetious. That you were serious is quite scary.

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neologist wrote:

God is no more obligated to know EVERYTHING than you are to read the last page of the whodunit. To assert that he cannot selectively apply his ability to foreknow is to place a limitation on his power.

It's not a question of obligation it's a question of premise: that being of an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god.

To ply your anthropomorphic pretexts to an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god is rather the height of hubris, don't you think?

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Neo,

What is scary about not putting any limits on God's power? He can do anything. He knows everything. Just because he knows what choice we are going to make it does not mean we don't have free will. It just means He knows the choice.

The Bible says He knows His children. I would imagine there are plenty out there right now that don't claim Him and yet He knows someday they will. But, it's their choice to make.

Now, whether He actually chooses to know? I don't know, Neo. I just don't put any limit on God whatsoever.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Wolfe,

The only thing is, there would have been nothing for them to actually choose had the tree not been there.

Yes, but you're saying they wouldn't have had free will if the tree hadn't been there. However, we can clearly see they had free will. If they didn't have free will, they would never have eaten the fruit in the first place.

Quote:
Uh, that's not true. I asked why on some things and didn't ask on others. If I asked, I got an answer. Adam and Eve were given the answer when God told them not to eat the fruit. Don't do it! You do it! You die. He didn't make it clear when or if it was physical death.

Ah, but didn't Frank prove elsewhere in these forums that God stated specifically they would die the same day they ate the fruit? And didn't I make a point in that same thread that God couldn't possibly have met anything but a physical death, because the death of other things doesn't make sense?

Does the term 'dead man walking' mean anything to you? Adam and Eve lost their right to life on that very day. And, since a thousand years is as a day to God, they fell within that period of time as well.

BTW, the bible never mentions the end of the seventh creative day, does it?

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We have a classic logical fallacy because as soon as this all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god applies his power so-called "selectively" he would no longer be an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Neo,

What is scary about not putting any limits on God's power? He can do anything. He knows everything. Just because he knows what choice we are going to make it does not mean we don't have free will. It just means He knows the choice.

The Bible says He knows His children. I would imagine there are plenty out there right now that don't claim Him and yet He knows someday they will. But, it's their choice to make.

Now, whether He actually chooses to know? I don't know, Neo. I just don't put any limit on God whatsoever.

By saying he must know of necessity, you place a limitation.

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Chumly wrote:

We have a classic logical fallacy because as soon as this all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god applies his power so-called "selectively" he would no longer be an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god.

You will have to explain that.

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spendius wrote:

. . .
How old was Adam supposed to be at the time?

I can make a good case for thirty. Not so sure about Eve.

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RexRed wrote:

neologist wrote:
If God knew Adam and Eve were going to fail, even set them up to fail, that would make him the cause of their sin; and their punishment, rather than being justly deserved as a consequence of willful rebellion, is instead the torture of innocents by a despicable tyrant.

This is, however, apparently what many believe the bible says.

Well, I don't believe in that god,either.

God is light and in him is no darkness at all...

God knew that the devil would fall and also that Adam and Eve would commit the original sin.

Yet, God also knew that Jesus Christ would come and be obedient to the calling of redemption, justification, sanctification, reconciliation...

No wonder folks disbelieve.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Chumly,

You are frustrating the heck out of me. . . .

Ya wouldn't be so durned frustrated if you could understand the true meaning of free will and choice.

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You mean the way you understand it, Neo? All I need to know is God gives me the freedom to choose. It's all I really need to know.

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neologist wrote:

Chumly wrote:
We have a classic logical fallacy because as soon as this all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god applies his power so-called "selectively" he would no longer be an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god.
You will have to explain that.

Actually, you can't explain that because God's omnipotence implies free will. Take away that freedom and you take away omnipotence.

God's name, Jehovah, means 'he who causes to become'. He is described as being 'dynamic energy' (Isaiah 40:26). He often states that his purpose will not be defeated. Jesus taught his disciples to pray for his will to be done. (Matthew 6:10)

You cannot describe God in self limiting terms.

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Momma Angel wrote:

You mean the way you understand it, Neo? All I need to know is God gives me the freedom to choose. It's all I really need to know.

If you say that God necessarily knew the outcome of the choice he put before Adam and Eve, then you are saying he knew in advance all the human misery and wickedness that would follow. That would mean all evil at one time existed only in the mind of our creator and came from him.

No wonder Frank hates that concept of God.

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See you tomorrow nite.

Bye.

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neologist wrote:

Chumly wrote:
We have a classic logical fallacy because as soon as this all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god applies his power so-called "selectively" he would no longer be an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god.
You will have to explain that.

Our all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god has decided to dumb himself down by selectively applying himself. As soon as he has done this he is no longer all powerful all knowing and omnipotent. It is a logical fallacy.

Remember though that the above must go hand in hand with my other post:

Chumly wrote:

It's not a question of obligation it's a question of premise: that being of an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god. To ply your anthropomorphic pretexts to an all powerful all knowing and omnipotent god is rather the height of hubris, don't you think?

My two posts are part of one response to you, but got chopped up, like liver......mmm liver!

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Apparently, this thing which cannot be acknowledged by the theists in this situation is that Adam and Eve...as an integral part of the story...DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEDIENCE.

They did not know there was anything wrong with anything. They did not have knowledge of right and wrong...of good and evil.

That is the point of the story.

The god forbids them to eat of the fruit of the tree that would give them that knowledge.

It is there in black and white.

The god of the Bible actually points this out...in its reaction AFTER they ate of the fruit. At Genesis 3:22, the god says: "The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad."

Before they ate the fruit...THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS "GOOD" AND WHAT WAS "BAD."

Folks...look at this thing...and put your fears of the god aside.

Recognize and acknowledge that the story is defective in the extreme.

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Nice Frank.

Since I was a kid I questioned: So what's the big deal about eating the apple, already?!
A kid reaches out and touches a hot stove, after some big adult says "No! You can do anything but touch that hot stove!". Uhh; what's the first thing the kid is gonna do?! Does it really make sense to give the kid a spanking on the burns for TRYING and LEARNING on their own?

The whole story sets human beings up as children, looking up to an 'all knowing' father. Obedient, stupid slaves. I've never known human beings to be like that - and I sure don't want to.

I prefer other stories, where people are funny and curious and talk to animals, and I think there is nothing wrong with believing them, ifn' you have experienced them, and you don't lose sight that it's a story, and stories are part-magic and part-truth and part-adventure ....

Big Question:
Who here believes that the story of Adam and Eve is the ONLY creation story, literal truth, it occured?
Just a wondering.....I read this whole thread and only really got an answer from Heph!
Surprised