Is the story of Adam and Even real...or allegory?

Wolf,

Then perhaps it WAS spiritual death He was speaking of? As I said, it is our spiritual life that God is more concerned with than our actual physical life.

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But a spiritual death makes no sense, because they didn't die spiritually. They still worshipped him, they still loved him and so did his descendants.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Nope is right, Chumly, but nope to you. God knew what their choice would eventually be, true. But, He let them make the choice. He did not cause them to make the choice. He did not use His power to force them to make the choice they did.

Adam and Eve were told not to do it. They did it. THEY did it. Not God. Just because God knows you will do something, it does not mean He makes you do it.

Even if you argue that god did not "cause" them to make the choice it makes no difference at all. Why?

Because they had no choice, rhe outcome was already 100% known by god.

There is no way they could not have done what they did. Why? Because god knew the outcome, and god controlled the results, hence no choice for Adam and Steven.

It matters not one iota whether god told them not to, since god already knew the exact outcome, he controlled the results, hence no choice for Adam and Steven.

The story is infantile and self-contradictory.

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Chumly,

He KNEW the outcome. He did not CAUSE the outcome. He knew what decisions they would make but He did not FORCE, COERCE, etc. them into their choice. Stop trying to blame God for this Chumly. (At least that seems that is what is being done.)

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Wolf,

Before they ate the fruit they did not know good and evil. They were spiritually pure. Once they ate the fruit that pureness/innocence died. That is the death I believe God was talking about. Yes, they still worshipped Him. They were just no longer without sin in their lives.

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neologist wrote:

If God knew Adam and Eve were going to fail, even set them up to fail, that would make him the cause of their sin; and their punishment, rather than being justly deserved as a consequence of willful rebellion, is instead the torture of innocents by a despicable tyrant.

This is, however, apparently what many believe the bible says.

Well, I don't believe in that god,either.

God is light and in him is no darkness at all...

God knew that the devil would fall and also that Adam and Eve would commit the original sin.

Yet, God also knew that Jesus Christ would come and be obedient to the calling of redemption, justification, sanctification, reconciliation...

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spendius wrote:

So-if I understand this correctly,which I have a reputation for not doing,it seems,God designed an urge in us which was similar to that in monkeys when they are unable to stop themselves letting go of the nut in the jam-jar and their clenched fist can't escape the jam-jar to which is attached a rope which is attached,by a transport route,to a cage in a zoo or an animal experiment laboratory which has promised to save all our lives.

It seems a dirty trick to me.I'm not sure I could have resisted Eve's temptations.

How old was Adam supposed to be at the time?

You got it! We were actually descendants of monkeys. I can give several modern examples of throw-backs like George W. Bush.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Wolf,

Oh they had free will, Wolfe. But, if there was nothing there that was bad for them then they could not exercise that free will.

Oh, there were plenty of things they could have done. Tear the wings off flies, stomp ants, aaggravate the aardvarks or piss off the pelicans. Eve could have hit Adam in the head with the apple and run off with the snake. Hell, he could have hit her with the snake and run off with the apple.

But no. They did the one thing they were told not to do. And do ya know why? Because it's not a true story. It was written to explain why people grew old, or got sick and why babies died. Why women suffered and sometimes died in childbirth. And since men wrote it, of course they blamed the woman.

Lucius Annaeus Seneca summarized it quite nicely when he wrote, "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

P

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Then call me common. Just add it to the list of other things I've been called because I believe.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Chumly,

He KNEW the outcome. He did not CAUSE the outcome. He knew what decisions they would make but He did not FORCE, COERCE, etc. them into their choice. Stop trying to blame God for this Chumly. (At least that seems that is what is being done.)

Blame god? I have no idea how you came to that specious assertion.

I stated (in essence) that without chance there cannot be choice, and you are not getting it yet. Choice must accompany chance. No chance no choice.

Ever heard the phrase "they didn't have a chance"?

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They took a chance, Chumly. They made the wrong choice.

If the tree had not been there the chance would not have been there and they wouldn't have had a choice to make.

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No there no chance. The outcome was already known. The tree was there.

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They did not have the choice to choose if the tree was there silly!

Read your bible Smile

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Chumly,

You are frustrating the heck out of me. One more time:

1) The tree was there providing a choice between obeying God and disobeying God.

2) Yes, God knew what choice they would make but THEY made the choice. God did not do anything but give them the choice.

3) Just because God knows what you are going to do that does not mean that He made you do it.

4) Riddle me this, Chumly. If one does not believe in God then who is making choices in that life? It must not be God because to that person He's not even real. So, who makes their choices?

5) Now, that person just started believing in God, Chumly. Now, who is making their choices? Them or God?

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LOL that was slick Chumly. Very slick

They didn't have the choice whether or not the tree was there, no. However they did have the choice whether or not they ate from it.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Chumly,

You are frustrating the heck out of me.

I don't blame you! If I had invested so much time and effort in a religion with so many obvious contradictions, I would be frustrated too!

Momma Angel wrote:

1) The tree was there providing a choice between obeying God and disobeying God.

Yes, we already know that the tree was there, and what is was for, despite your argument about Adam and Steve getting to choose the tree. And no they had no choice because the outcome was already known. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. It's self contradictory. No chance of any other outcome, mean no choice for any other outcome. It is simply a distinction without a difference.

Momma Angel wrote:

2) Yes, God knew what choice they would make but THEY made the choice. God did not do anything but give them the choice.

As discussed there can be not choice if there is no chance. It is simply a distinction without a difference.

Momma Angel wrote:

3) Just because God knows what you are going to do that does not mean that He made you do it.

Now you are trying to make an argument by going from the specific to the general and that is clearly incongruent. The topic is a specific part of biblical text as per Adam and Steve, now isn't it? But if you want to discuss whether free will exists in the context of a personal Christian god who is all powerful all knowing and omnipotent start a thread.

Momma Angel wrote:

4) Riddle me this, Chumly. If one does not believe in God then who is making choices in that life? It must not be God because to that person He's not even real. So, who makes their choices?

Again you are trying to make an argument by going from the specific to the general and that is clearly incongruent. The topic is a specific part of biblical text as per Adam and Steve, now isn't it? But if you want to discuss whether free will exists in the context of a personal Christian god who is all powerful all knowing and omnipotent start a thread.

Momma Angel wrote:

5) Now, thatperson just started believing in God, Chumly. Now, who is making their choices? Them or God?

Again you are trying to make an argument by going from the specific to the general and that is clearly incongruent. The topic is a specific part of biblical text as per Adam and Steve, now isn't it? But if you want to discuss whether free will exists in the context of a personal Christian god who is all powerful all knowing and omnipotent start a thread.

I like threads that discuss distinctions without differences and this one is true to form.

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Chumly,

I am bowing out. We disagree. That's fine. I have a bad headache and I cannot handle this right now. I think you are a doll but you think way too deeply for me sometimes. Laughing

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edgarblythe wrote:

Yeah- -talking snake, nekkid and ignorant, punished for generations for a simple mistake in judgement, finally offered salvation by scourged nailed up bleeding Christ, he born of a virgin- Sounds perfectly thought out and researched to me.

Simple mistake?

Pauligirl wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Pauligirl,

Who said He didn't know what was going to happen? Of course He knew. He knows everything. Didn't you know that? :wink:

So, God actually caused man to sin by placing a restriction upon him which served no other purpose but to cause him to sin? And then punished all humankind for it.

Wow.
P

I was kind of thinking MA was being facetious. You were, weren't you, MA?

Chumly wrote:

How can you then assert (assuming you do) that your god is all powerful and all knowing and omnipotent?

Further if you claim that he is all-powerful and all-knowing and omnipotent but simply dumbed himself down for this event, then by default he could not be all-powerful and all-knowing and omnipotent. Plus it still imputes that he had foreknowledge of the event in question, else why would he dumb himself down?

God is no more obligated to know EVERYTHING than you are to read the last page of the whodunit. To assert that he cannot selectively apply his ability to foreknow is to place a limitation on his power.

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It does not matter one iota if Adam and Steve thought they had a choice. Good night take care!

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Neo,

Yes, was being facetious. It wasn't Adam and Steve, Chumly. It was Adam and Eve.

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Is the story of Adam and Even real...or allegory?

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