Canada v. US

About seven years ago I needed a heart valve repair. The day before the operation I took a one hour bus ride to Toronto.
One of the best heart surgeons in the world performed the operation and 13 days later I took the same bus home.
The whole procedure cost me two bus tickets. I have no private health insurance.
Someone might want to tell me what the costs in the States would have been.

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You are most wrong when you say "The whole procedure cost me two bus tickets"!

The costs to you would be through higher interest rates, a lower Canadian dollar, lower purchasing power, higher taxes, higher governmental debts, and decreased freedoms due to government interventionism.

Hardly the cost of "two bus tickets".

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Chumly wrote:

decreased freedoms due to government interventionism

Interesting point. Do you mind expanding on that one a bit, Chumly?

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Because I am forced to apply a sizable part of my economic wellbeing to a socialized medical system I may not want or need, may not approve of, and which may not serve my purposes with efficacy.

I cannot take those proceeds and use them as I see fit for my health needs or otherwise. Further since the system is not market driven, if there is a demand for a medical service that is not agreed to by the powers that be, it will simply not be supplied.

To move away from the socialized medical system argument; here in British Columbia we have an Egg marketing board, a Chicken Marketing Board, a Milk Marketing board etc., etc., all supposedly for the protection of the farmer, and to enable "safe" and "stable "pricing.

But what happens is that the licenses for the farms are astronomical in cost, and as hard to obtain as hen's teeth, plus the prices for these foods are fixed and noncompetitive, as are the specified quotas.

This price fixing also applies to doctors such that supply and demand considerations are thwarted. I have no way of knowing if my medical costs are higher than they should be, or could be.

My major point to "detano inipo" was the more quantifiable and qualifable economic costs and not the more subjective losses of freedom, although I would argue they are most real.

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hamburger wrote:

i know that many , if not most, americans are perfectly satisfied with their health-care system.
and that is certainly a good thing.

i have also seen some entries right here on a2k by people who seemed to have legitimate complaints about the american system ; such as unable to afford health premium, cost of drugs, having to bring someone home over the week-end to save on hospital cost ...

now don't get me wrong. i am not saying that the canadian system is the better one, or that the american system is an inferior one . they are simply different !

personally, i prefer a system where everyone is supplied basic health-care by 'pooled risk funds' paid for by all citizens - some call it 'government insurance' , i'd call it 'citizen insurance' since the citizens supply the money to the system , not the government .

that way no one has to go without insurance - which is my personal preference.
perhaps there are some people who prefer to be without insurance and who would not want to be insured , even if the insurance was available .
what i have found out throughout my life that many people who at a young age think they are not vulnerable to sickness and disease , have a different outlook on life as they get older.

similarly, young people often think that they do not need to save for old-age ... by age 60 i' have found many of those people starting to complain about not having saved enough .
i guess it's like the brakes on the car, you really only need to have the brake linings replaced shortly before a crash ; there is no need towaste money on it any earlier.

here are my closing thoughts for today :
i wonder if anyone ever bothered to check with the people who are left without insurance for various reasons . are they quite satisfied to pay their own way ? do they have the money to pay for health-care when required ?
what happens if they not have either insurance or the money to pay medical expenses ?
hbg

I'm with ya' hamburger. I prefer Canadian med. The older I get, the more I love it, and the less I begrudge forking out the dough for it.

I don't necessarily think one is better than the other, but I strongly I have particular beliefs about health care:
No one should be denied it, not rich, not poor, not those who make decisions I agree with, not those who make decisions I disagree with.

It's just a dream of mine - seeing anyone who needs help getting it. It never happens that way, but we can at least strive and work towards closing the gap.

There are problems with the Canadian system, which are getting very noticeable. But that's another book altogether..... Laughing

Also, it frightens me when I hear some of the stories of American friends who have came here to receive health care, or because they are too poor to receive the treatment they need.

There is always someone getting a bum deal, I guess.

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I've been reading some of the posts here. May I say, as a Canadian, that I don't mind higher taxes for a decent health system? I know some retired folks in the US who are paying a whopping $500 a month for health care! That's a good chunk of a pension. Of course, prescription drugs are extra.

That Canada puts its citizens first, like Europe, to insure that they have the necessities in life, such as basic health care, says much about that country.

That America prefers to spend the majority of its money on defense and not affordable health care is their choice. Apparently that is what is important to them.

Sure, we have higher taxes than the US. But, the way I see it, you get what you pay for. I have never had any complaint with our Canadian health system. I have heard some horror stories about patients in the US going without care because of no health insurance. I know a fellow (US) who has a brain aneurysm but no one will operate because he has no medical insurance. I find that barbaric in a country supposedly as rich as the US!

I would also say that one big difference between America and Canada is that Canadians came to Canada for the quality of life. Americans went to America for quantity-- or the fast buck.

There are many cultural differences. Canada is more European in flavour; our speech is different and our way of looking at the world is different. Canadians don't want to dominate the world like the Americans do. We have always acted the part of peacekeepers, not warmongers.

Speaking for myself, I object to the methods that America uses to get what it wants. America is like the movie "Truman's World"; can't see that his world is a big plastic bubble, and that there is a real world out there with people who have differing views, values, and culture.

Contrary to popular American beliefs, promoted by their media, most of the world would NOT rather be in America.

When will Canada be paid back by America for the softwoods issue? Maybe it wasn't a big deal to the Americans, but I know people who are out of work because their mills have shut down. You don't think that type of thing causes Canadians, in general, to dislike Americans?

That's why much of the planet dislikes America. They disregard other countries, demean the citizenry, grab resources. They have to learn to act like grown-ups and not spoiled bullies.

NAFTA is another thing......but I won't go there, for now.

Sorry if I interrupted an ongoing conversation.
Carry on.

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Hi Pachelbe,

That's great Pach! I started this thread to ask Canadians what issues they have with the Americans, why they disliked them, so you are 100% on target. No need to apologize at all Smile

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Do they have Mexican food in Canada?

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If I go to a bar and get drunk with a bunch of Hokey players will they kick my ass when they find out i'm from America?

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Amigo wrote:

Do they have Mexican food in Canada?

No none! But the Asians use restaurant ownership in Vancouver as a vehicle to meet the flimsy immigration requirements, thus making the massive number of Asian restaurants and the under-priced food they supply in essence government sponsored.

Amigo wrote:

If I go to a bar and get drunk with a bunch of Hokey players will they kick my ass when they find out i'm from America?

What is a Hokey player? A mawkishly sentimental player? Like a violinist for Arthur Fielder & The Boston Pops?

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Tacobell?

To do before I move to Canada.
1. Learn to spell Hokey.

Hold on here!!.....What kind of people don't have Mexican food??????

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old europe wrote:

Chumly wrote:
decreased freedoms due to government interventionism

Interesting point. Do you mind expanding on that one a bit, Chumly?

Canada's system does not permit private practice by medical providers outside the system. The Canadian government decides what medical procedures and treatments it citizens can get - not the doctors and their patients.

The Canadian government has also made itself the sole authorized buyer from manufacturers of pharmaceutical drugs: it uses its sovereign power to bully drug manufacturers into discounts under the threat of patent infringement by authorizing the manufacture of generic knock offs. The result is little or no investment in Canada in the development and testing of new drugs - and higher prices for the consumers of other countries who, in effect pay for this development for the benefit of Canadians.

Finally Canadian taxpayers do indeed pay the bills for their rationed medical treatment through their taxes. I don't lnow just how efficient the medical bureaucracy in the Canadian government may be, but my estimate of the efficiency of most government operations is not high.

The nanny state has its benefits, but it has its costs as well. One is freedom.

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You're going to have to back that bunch of stuff up, georgeob.

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I'm Canadian and 50 years old and have of course lived with the system very intimately, further my father was a doctor. I can confirm georgeob1's assessments.

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I'm within spitting distance of 50 - living in Canada - go to a private med clinic - my docs decide on my treatment (some of which is OHIP funded) - spent 17 years with someone in the Canadian pharmaceutical research industry, which is enormous.

georgeob is gonna have to back his stuff up.

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He is not saying that the doctor does not recommend the treatment, he is saying the Canadian government decides what it's citizens can get i.e. if our health care system does not approve of the treatment it is not covered.

I also argue that what you call private is not really private but more just an extension of the government mandated and regulated system with the veneer of self determination and control.

I also argue irrelative of the few so-called private clinics, one cannot opt out of the public heath care system from a cost perspective, so where is your choice?

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Chumly wrote:

You are most wrong when you say "The whole procedure cost me two bus tickets"!

The costs to you would be through higher interest rates, a lower Canadian dollar, lower purchasing power, higher taxes, higher governmental debts, and decreased freedoms due to government interventionism.

Hardly the cost of "two bus tickets".

The fact is that an operation like that in the US would have cost me my condo instead of $15.

Chumly, you are painting a frightening picture of Canadian conditions based on opinions. The facts are like this:

We are slowly paying down our debt. We are enjoying a surplus for several years now. Our taxes are going down as well. We have more freedom than our neighbors. Our Canadian dollar is rising and predictions are that our dollar will supass the US dollar in 2010.

Your finances are in bad shape. Perhaps you should direct your criticism at your govenment.

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I must take exception to the notion "We have more freedom than our neighbors." unless you are referring to Greenland.

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detano inipo wrote:

We are slowly paying down our debt. We are enjoying a surplus for several years now. Our taxes are going down as well. We have more freedom than our neighbors. Our Canadian dollar is rising and predictions are that our dollar will supass the US dollar in 2010.

Your finances are in bad shape. Perhaps you should direct your criticism at your govenment.

I think your description of the relevant facts is a bit distorted.

At $41,800 the U.S. GDP (ppp) per capita is 27% higher than that in Canada which is $32,800. That pays for a good deal in any category.

Our taxes have been reduced significantly as well. And our public debt as a % of GDP is both in the normal range and also falling.

The Canadian dollar is rising relative to ours solely because of your very favorable balance of trade with us. This is in part a result of NAFTA. We find it a bit odd that in these favorable conditions, Canadians whine so much about both NAFTA and the odd issue that doesn't go their way, such as the soft wood and live cattle matters. This invites retaliation.

I don't know what is meant or behind the assertion that Canadians have more freedom than their neighbors.. Freedom in what areas? Posession of small quantities of marijuana - yes. Freedom to choose whatever medical treatment and provider you may choose and be willing to pay for - no.

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detano inipo wrote:

The fact is that an operation like that in the US would have cost me my condo instead of $15.

If so, that is certainly not all the so-called "facts" as you could have US health insurance, let alone the lower taxes, lower interest rates, higher US dollar, higher purchasing power, lower taxes, lower governmental debts, that you would benefit from.

detano inipo wrote:

Chumly, you are painting a frightening picture of Canadian conditions based on opinions.

No I am assessing a given contrast.

detano inipo wrote:

We are slowly paying down our debt.

Completely and entirely false. That is short term government supplied rhetoric. The truth is, from a long term perspective of the last 50 years, the amount of debt in absolute and relative terms in any quantifiable measure has massively increased and there is no indications from governments or otherwise that such increasing debts are reversing irrelative of any short term assessments or claims over some few years.

detano inipo wrote:

We are enjoying a surplus for several years now.

A short term irrelevancy against a long term historical trending increase. Look at the long term big picture of 50 years. The short term variations you refer to have nothing whatsoever to do with the historical increases, what you refer to is called volatility and in no way expresses what has happened over the last 50 years.

detano inipo wrote:

Our taxes are going down as well.

Are they really? By exactly how much in real buying power relative to 20 years ago? Please let me know!
-Ever heard of tax creep?
-Ever heard of the $100,000 life time capital gains exemption being revoked?
-Ever heard of the % capital gains rate going up?
-Ever heard of the massive tightening of business deductions?
-Ever heard of being forced to withdraw pension funds earlier?
-Ever heard of OAC claw-back?
-The list of tax increases has been huge over the last 20 years!

detano inipo wrote:

We have more freedom than our neighbors.

Do we? How do you intend to show this vis-à-vis health care, given one cannot opt out of our socialized system?

detano inipo wrote:

Our Canadian dollar is rising and predictions are that our dollar will supass the US dollar in 2010.

That is the most incorrect. It is correct to say that the Canadian dollar has *risen* not that it is so-called "rising", it's not like watching bread.

It is also much more correct to say our dollar has bounced back from extreme lows due to decreased fears of Quebec seperation and increasing commodity prices of which our economy is very reliant on.

Further it is 100% speculation to predict what the exchange rates will be in 2010, no one can do such a thing! Just as no one can predict what inflation will be, nor what the stock market will do; specifically the stock market in the short to mid term i.e. less than 15 - 20 years.

detano inipo wrote:

Your finances are in bad shape.

I do not know what you are referring to here but your comment appears out of context, please edify.

detano inipo wrote:

Perhaps you should direct your criticism at your government

I do not know what you are referring to here but your comment appears out of context, please edify.

I am not suggesting with certainty that you "detano inipo" read the Globe & Mail newspaper and/or other popuar Canadian media sources but those sources would tend to provide views parallel to yours. But that does not make them correct.

It is rather easy to exempt oneself from poplar political and media rhetoric and do your own research. I would suggest that if you have not done this you start with the Bank of Canada's web site and the US's Federal Reserve web site.

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