Canada v. US

Ray wrote:

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So, foreign policy and self-interest are synonymous.

The problem with the world...

...oh yeah, and business interests.
That's problematic.

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Akaya wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Countries we deal with enjoy many benefits they would otherwise not have. That is a result of our capitalistic idealism and belief in free interprise.

Like the benefits of child labor by Nike in Pakistan, the Gap in greater China, Southeast Asia and the Indian subcontinent...or perhaps like Bechtel in Bolivia?
Mostly capitalizing on the dire situations in developing countries, American corporations exploit whomever they can under the guise of providing them with "many benefits they would otherwise not have".
If and when the workers demand more or if wages get too high, they simply move elsewhere more needy and less demanding.

This is the result of our capitalistic idealism and belief in free enterprise. Of course, there is nothing ideal about it, unless your an American business owner, and there's nothing free about it, in any sense of the word. By design, it benefits American interests and American interests only--so as you have earlier mentioned, as with American foreign policy, so goes the mandate for American business. Look out for your interests, to hell with what happens on the periphery.

Child labor? Laughing

Ask those in 3rd world countries if they would rather work for Nike, or not work at all. The wages aren't the same as those in the US, but neither is the cost of living. No one twists anyone's arms to work in any factory, right?

You are a nattering nabob. I can deal with that. Free Enterprise (notice the word "free" there?) means they aren't dictated too by a government. Businesses are in businees to make money, not to make the employees happy. They are welcome to look elsewhere for that. Nor are they there to benefit the community, though most do because that attracts better employees. You seem to lack the basic understanding of what business is or is about.

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McGentrix wrote:

Businesses are in businees to make money, not to make the employees happy. They are welcome to look elsewhere for that. Nor are they there to benefit the community, though most do because that attracts better employees. You seem to lack the basic understanding of what business is or is about.

That is a different defintion of business than the businesses I choose to support!

Business is part of the community, whether positively or negatively.
Good business will, by default, benefit the community.
Why?
Because good business is there to serve the community, by providing goods, services, employment, etc. etc. rather than a community existing to serve a business (which is impossible and a mistake of thinking).

It doesn't make logical sense to put Profit and Business before Community, because Profit and Business would not exist at all without Community and People.

In effect, the sort of business which does not benefit the community and people, is parasitic. Hence, bad business.

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Like I said, Americans and multinational corporations act in self interest, to hell with what happens on the periphery.

A view from the fence:

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Increasing the demand of the products produced by child labor means encouraging more child labor, encouraging more birth rates, more slavery, increasing sweatshops and discouraging education - as parents of the children working in factories would want them to work more and earn more. If this happened to be the case, then more and more children will be bought and sold on the black market, leading no end to this problem. By encouraging more child labor, you are not only taking away those innocent years from them but also the right to be educated and the right to be free.

Source

But I guess as long as Phil Knight can maintain a net worth in excess of $7 billion, who gives a rats ass how he gets there.

Nattering Nabob has almost become a tired cliche around here McGentrix....is that the best you can come up with? Surely your your ad hominem lexicon has more depth than that.

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Generally speaking, business ethics is a normative discipline, whereby particular ethical standards are assumed and then applied. It makes specific judgements about what is right or wrong, which is to say, it makes claims about what ought to be done or what ought not to be done.

Wikipedia definition

McGentrix wrote:

Businesses are in businees to make money, not to make the employees happy. They are welcome to look elsewhere for that. Nor are they there to benefit the community, though most do because that attracts better employees. You seem to lack the basic understanding of what business is or is about.

That is the most assinine statement.
As a business owner, having my employees not only satisfied, but happy with their job and work environment is of the highest importance to me.
Clearly you speak from an opinion, not an experiential platform.
___________________________________________________________

That many multinationals choose to set up shop in third world and developing nations to take advantage of third world prices illustrates the deplorable state of affairs business currently finds itself.

That there are laws prohibiting child labor in the US should obligate American corporations to have some sense of moral responsibility in acting in other nations as they would in their own.

Perhaps that explains the booming sex trade industries that exploit pre-pubescent females in SE asia...and the thousands of American men who enjoy the services provided.

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note, that this is in brackets !

(american business giving benefits of labour to poor, third-world countries reminds me of 'society balls' . the rich and super-rich throw a society ball , where each participant pays $1,000 per plate and the 'benefits go to orphans in the third world '.
i won't add anything, but let you draw your own conclusions). hbg

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Does anyone think that Canadian politicians, governments, media (CBC etc.) and schools etc. tend to promote negative American perspectives for us Canucks? In particular perhaps the NDP, and to a lesser degree the Liberal viewpoint? Or maybe even the Conservatives with Harper's recent politicizing?

Trudeau seemed to earn a lot of home points doing so as I recall.

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Well, I think that the public don't really like what the US government have done over the years. It's just sad that some of these people tend to dislike American in general as opposed to the American government in power.

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Martin became a seasoned pro in even the short duration of his administration.
I think that the America bashing that takes place in Canada has the desired effect. The question should not be whether or not the Canadian governments (at any level, or from any party) cast certain stones, rather, are they justified in doing so.

If America is doing something unfair to Canada or to Canadians, they have the right to know. America is a friend and an ally of Canada, and like any friendship, there should be maximum mutual benefits with minimal unjustified exploitation of the other.

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Lets not forget one thing.
From the end of WW2 to the end of the cold war,Canada benefited greatly because of its southern neighbor.

Our defense of North America (SAC,NORAD,the DEW line,etc) included Canada.
Because of that,they were able to turn inward,expanding their economy,and more peaceful pursuits.

The US and Canada will always have differences,like all neighbors do.

However,and let me stress this is MY OPINION ONLY,I truly believe that in my grandkids lifetime (if I ever have any),the US and Canada will become one country.
The border now is there in name only.
Most of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of the US,we have the same language (excluding Quebec),the same culture,the same ideals,etc.

OK,now I'll sit back and let the arrows fly at me.

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Chumly wrote:

Does anyone think that Canadian politicians, governments, media (CBC etc.) and schools etc. tend to promote negative American perspectives for us Canucks? In particular perhaps the NDP, and to a lesser degree the Liberal viewpoint? Or maybe even the Conservatives with Harper's recent politicizing?

Trudeau seemed to earn a lot of home points doing so as I recall.

Fer sure. Politicians in general tend to 'spin', and our media is not perfect either. If and when it serves, this trick has been employed.

CBC has been called out numerous time for 'pushing a Liberal agenda' and 'spewing anti-American sentiment'. Each of us can decide for ourselves if we believe this is so.

The good thing about Canadian media is the ease of spreading independent papers, music, opinions, film. Some would argue that this is not so, since we do have large companies running all the 'major' papers and such. But it isn't hard to create your own thing here. Our indie scene is strong. I am quite proud and happy about that. Gov't grants be damned.

Schools: Now that is an interesting question! I don't know. I'd like to hear others experience in some of the major universities and high schools.

I think there is a general air of American dislike and distrust, but I have encountered very few who "hate Americans".

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mysteryman wrote:

Most of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of the US,we have the same language (excluding Quebec),the same culture,the same ideals,etc.

Two things funny about that:
1)Saying the USA and Canada share a culture, ideals, etc.
2)Excluding Quebec and putting them in ()

There are Canadians that would rather DIE than see your prophesy come true. The ways things are now, I think I might be one of them.

That's not to say I don't enjoy American company.

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I find MM's remarks hilarious because of the city of Toronto alone. It's one of the largest Chinese cities in the world. It is heavily populated by people from the Carribean islands. It has a large population from the subcontinent (that's India, Pakistan and Bangladesh for the geographically challenged). It has a sufficiently large population of Italians, that there is more than one independent Italian language television station--ditto for the Portuguese. It also has significantly large populations of Russians and Poles. "Greek Town" on the Danforth has the street signs in Greek with small, hard-to-read English subtitles.

Unlike the United States, Canada not only does not require these people to assimilate, the governments (Federal, Provincial and municipal) make it possible for ethnic groups to have their children instructed in the native langauges of their parents. Toronto is one of the finest restaurant cities in North America, precisely because it is so diverse. I suspect that Vancouver is very similar, although i've not been there.

It never fails to amuse and entertain when one meets Americans who assume that the rest of the world is either like the United States, or wants to be.

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Oh, i should point out for the geographically challenged that more than 10% of the population of Canada lives in Toronto--which is one of the reasons that it is possible to state that so much of the Canadian population lives so close to the US border.

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McGentrix wrote:

Child labor?

Ask those in 3rd world countries if they would rather work for Nike, or not work at all. The wages aren't the same as those in the US, but neither is the cost of living. No one twists anyone's arms to work in any factory, right?

I've got some friends in Ecuador. And some in Bolivia. And Mexico. If you want, I can take you along on my next visit.

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flushd wrote replied to Mystery Man:

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There are Canadians that would rather DIE than see your prophesy come true. The ways things are now, I think I might be one of them.

I am one of them. Americans are great, as Americans and I have nothing against the American people. I even like many of them :-)

However, I am Canadian and a citizen of the greatest country in the world. Canada has been first in many things. MM mentioned WWII. May I remind him that Canada had already established themselves as world class participants of that war a full 2 years before America joined in.

Canada is known for peacekeeping...not the aggressor.

Having travelled extensively in both Canada and the U.S.A. I can say that we are safer, cleaner, more tolerant and accepting of our citizens from other countries. I do not see the same in the U.S.

We can be neighbours, but I do not want to move into my neighbours house.

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Schools: Now that is an interesting question! I don't know. I'd like to hear others experience in some of the major universities and high schools.

In high school, there was a bit of both, likes and dislikes from the teachers. It's not "taught" of course, but when the teacher is discussing current events or history, you can see their disapproval or approval on certain things.

I guess it really depends on where you go to.

Right now, in the college I'm attending, there's really no sense of dislike of Americans. Some of the students and teachers in my classes are probably American anyways.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

The US violates Canadian sovereignty in Northern waters. Canada has control of those routes and America can butt out.

A remarkable assertion from a citizen of the UK. The laborador Strait is considered by both the U.S. and the UK (and many other nations as well) as an international strait open in accordance with Maratime law to the "innocent passage" of merchant and warships of all nations - the same as the Straits of Malacca, the Bahama Strait a mile off the shore of downtown Miami, and many others. This has been a basic principle of UK international policy for at least three centuries, and it is recognized international law.

Canada just doesn't want to accept it,

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I do not see America as consequentially different than Canada, the artifice of nationalism aside, the artifice of mutliulturasim v. the melting pot aside; the strength of a truly unified one country North America outweighs the sum of any potential weaknesses.

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Actually I regret submitting the above post. There have been lots of Canada vs the U.S. threads in which we have argued all these points ad nauseum. Perhaps a moderately interesting drill to do iit all again, but I for one would prefer to see this thread stick to Chumly's opening proposition and question. Namely to hear from Canadians just what it is from their perspective that is behind the growing public perception of friction between the two countries, and the equally important fact of mistrust and even animosity between the two governments. I believe both phenomena are growing in intensity and I see little out there in the way of moderating influences.

Just what is it about the U.S. - culture, economic policy, political outlook, etc. that annoys (if that is the right word) Canadians? I would like to hear the best and the worst from your perspectives,

(Plese remember that since the fall of the Soviet Empire, we have been left alone on center stage. Perhaps we were wrong for not having voluntarily walked off the stage - but that doesn't seem to happen often in history. As a boy I once wondered why teachers were all such jerks and students were generally so cool. It seemed odd because teachers were once students too - when did they become jerks? Later I realized that the difference was the blissful anonymity of the crowd of students and the teacher's solitary challenge of standing before the class in the spotlight and in the gaze of all, where one's warts all showed with awful clarity.)

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