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Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?

 
 
PoetSeductress
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 02:46 pm
Re: Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
PoetSeductress wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
PoetSeductress wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
late to the thread as usual... although it is certainly the fault of the extremist pieces of **** who did the bombing, here's a tip... If you walk around the world like a bull in a China shop. telling everyone you're the only one that's right about anything.... taking credit for everything and expecting the world to play by rules you don't, then you'd better be prepared to also take the blame for everything that goes wrong.

I think it's time to let these people just slaughter each other and thin the herd personally. I nhave tried and tried to be empathetic to the ordinary citizen and part of me still is but this is not going to get better, gwb's bullshit isn't going to change anythiong. Even Jesus, who apparently directs gwb's every move, said you can't save the world.


I see. hmm... If you can't make everything go perfectly, why even try anything at all?


don't fall off that high horse sweetheart ....


Thank you, bluevein, I'll try not to. But even if I did, I would eventually get back on it again, learn from the mistakes, and ride better than before..


perhaps, perhaps not.


Self-determination is in my blood; it's how I was raised. Of course, I'm speaking only for myself, and can't speak for you or anyone else, in this regard. But it's something worthwhile to note, and can be applied to anything in life, including politics.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 06:21 pm
oralloy

Quote:
Our economic stability has nothing to do with what people use to pay for oil, and we don't care whether someone charges for their oil in Euros.

I think you had better take some economic lessons. The stability of the dollar has a hell of a lot to do with our economy. That's why Greenspan said the biggest threat to our economy is our trade deficit.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/14/business/main1041725.shtml

Quote:
Iran is not a democracy.
Outside of Iraq it's more of a democracy than any other major oil producing country in the Middle East.

Quote:
Venezuela is a democracy, but Chavez may be working to change that.


Oh really? How so? He's up for re-election in December 2006. Has he done anything to cancel the election or are you hoping?

Quote:
The spread of Democracy is good.

That's not what the Israelis think. I don't think they're to pleased with the winner of the Palestinian elections.

You think free elections would be good for Saudi Arabia? What do you think the idiots who run our country would think of free elections in Saudi Arabia if they elected a government as hostile to America as Iran's. Thanks to Bush we have generated a great deal of hate in the Muslim world. With democracy you don't know what the government will be. It could be an Iran, a Chavez or a Humas.

Be careful what you wish for. You may get it and it'll bite you in the a**.
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PoetSeductress
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 06:42 pm
xingu wrote:
...Thanks to Bush we have generated a great deal of hate in the Muslim world.


Let's see... Bush has caused the Muslim world to much hate. But when Clinton was in office, the Muslim world supposedly never hated, or if they did, it was a meager amount. Sound logic, I must say.
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 06:56 pm
Makes sense to me
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PoetSeductress
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 07:04 pm
Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
Intrepid wrote:
Makes sense to me


Surely you jest, Intrepid. Laughing
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 07:42 pm
Clinton didn't try to bomb the Muslim countries into oblivion, did he?
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PoetSeductress
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 07:56 pm
Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
Intrepid wrote:
Clinton didn't try to bomb the Muslim countries into oblivion, did he?


There were many radical Islamist haters and terrorists who were out to kill, steal, destroy, and take over, long before Bush, Clinton, or anyone in recent history ever were born.

You might find this article interesting, Intrepid. It's a must-read:



The Long Bloody History of Islamic Terrorism
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 08:20 pm
poet :
if you want to meet some gentle muslims, take a cruise on one of the ships of the holland-america line (part of carnival cruise lines).
many of the ships crew are muslims - our last cabin steward's name was 'mohamed' - a pretty authentic muslim . i'd be hard pressed to find a more gentle and truly friendly people .

it's interesting that the article you have posted mentions lybia and qaddaffi . lybia has , of course, become an important supplier of light sweet crude (the best there is) to the western world and has been forgiveb its former transgressions.
hbg
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 08:33 pm
Re: Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
PoetSeductress wrote:
xingu wrote:
...Thanks to Bush we have generated a great deal of hate in the Muslim world.

Let's see... Bush has caused the Muslim world to much hate. But when Clinton was in office, the Muslim world supposedly never hated, or if they did, it was a meager amount. Sound logic, I must say.


PoetSeductress wrote:
There were many radical Islamist haters and terrorists who were out to kill, steal, destroy, and take over, long before Bush, Clinton, or anyone in recent history ever were born.

Yes, there were haters, extremist Islamists, then and now.

But anti-American revulsion among the population at large is now significantly bigger than 10 years ago.

Those things can both be true. One is not a refutation of the other.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 08:34 pm
What the invasion of Iraq has done is to gain more sympathy for the extremist. The extremist message is the West wants to invade and colonize the Middle East so as to control the oil.

Bush's invasion of Iraq is gives credibility to this argument. This is especially true in light of the fact that every reason Bush gave for the invasion was false.

Now Bush is beating the war drums against Iran and doing so with the same arguments as Iraq.

Bush claims to support democracy but supports governments that don't practice democracy. Bush claims that the UN must be obeyed and used the UN as an excuse to invade Iraq. Yet this country has continuously ignored Israels behavior in ignoring the UN.

And yes Iraq is the new training ground for terrorists. It's the new Afghanistan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7460-2005Jan13.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28876-2005Feb16.html

http://www.channel4.com/news/content/news-storypage.jsp?id=187806
0 Replies
 
PoetSeductress
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 08:37 pm
Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
hamburger wrote:
poet :
if you want to meet some gentle muslims, take a cruise on one of the ships of the holland-america line (part of carnival cruise lines).
many of the ships crew are muslims - our last cabin steward's name was 'mohamed' - a pretty authentic muslim . i'd be hard pressed to find a more gentle and truly friendly people .

it's interesting that the article you have posted mentions lybia and qaddaffi . lybia has , of course, become an important supplier of light sweet crude (the best there is) to the western world and has been forgiveb its former transgressions.
hbg


Hamburger, I understand that not everyone of a particular religion is radical. The article posted addressed those who were, and noted the one-way transitional bridge linked between the two, known to be taken by some.

I believe you; thank you for the information. Are you affiliated with the cruise ship in any way, or are you speaking as one of the passengers?
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 08:48 pm
PoetSeductress

I don't disagree with the premise that there has always been, and may always be, Muslim terrorists.

What irks me is Bush has made their job easier by his invasion of Iraq. At times I wonder whose side he's on, ours or Osama's.
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PoetSeductress
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 09:05 pm
Re: Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
nimh wrote:
But anti-American revulsion among the population at large is now significantly bigger than 10 years ago.

Which Muslim population? The moderate secular Muslims? The radical secular Muslims? The True Islamists?

I would like to see the official numbers on it. Otherwise, the claims here are empty.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 09:22 pm
Re: Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
PoetSeductress wrote:
nimh wrote:
But anti-American revulsion among the population at large is now significantly bigger than 10 years ago.
Which Muslim population? The moderate secular Muslims? The radical secular Muslims? The True Islamists?

I would like to see the official numbers on it. Otherwise, the claims here are empty.

And where do you suggest one would be able to get "the official numbers" on how many Muslims, throughout a part of the world scattered with dictatorships, like or dislike Americans?

There are, as of now, no neutral but universally and representatively applied United Nations opinion polls, I'm afraid ... so reasoned estimations and informed impressions is exactly what you'll have to go on, for better or for worse - one way or another.

Information to base oneself on would range from opinion polls, where they did take place (tho they tend to be more specific, such as the polls undertaken in Iraq by a consortium of international news organisations and the American administration itself, respectively, a year or two ago, about how the Iraqis trusted the US army or administrators -- they didnt); frequency and mass of spontaneous protests (hard to distinguish from non-spontaneous ones, but there you go), observations from Arab commentators, anecdotal evidence of people-one-knows, etc.

In the category of anecdotal evidence, the Muslims I knew in Holland became stringently more hostile to the US in the past five years..
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 09:26 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The spread of Democracy is good.
But not if the people elect the wrong sort of government.

No, it's always good. All people deserve to be in control of their government.
I look forward to seeing Condoleeza Rice embrace the democratically elected leaders of Hamas.

I didn't say that we have to like it. The fact that Hitler was elected chancellor of Germany didn't make him desirable.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 09:31 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Clinton didn't try to bomb the Muslim countries into oblivion, did he?

Neither has Bush.

Afghanistan was in retaliation for the mass murder of our citizens in New York.

Iraq was because we had finally lost patience with trying to keep doomsday weapons out of the hands of a madman after 12 years of his conning us. Remember, Hussein had annexed Kuwait, and we kicked him out, and got his agreement to destroy his WMD in a manner such that we could be sure he had done so.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 09:32 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Clinton didn't try to bomb the Muslim countries into oblivion, did he?

Neither has Bush.

Afghanistan was in retaliation for the mass murder of our citizens in New York.

Iraq was because we had finally lost patience with trying to keep doomsday weapons out of the hands of a madman after 12 years of his conning us. Remember, Hussein had annexed Kuwait, and we kicked him out, and got his agreement to destroy his WMD in a manner such that we could be sure he had done so.


Keep believing that Brandon. You are one of the few who still do.
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PoetSeductress
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 10:11 pm
Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
xingu wrote:
What the invasion of Iraq has done is to gain more sympathy for the extremist. The extremist message is the West wants to invade and colonize the Middle East so as to control the oil.


The extremist will fabricate and pump out any propaganda imaginable, to try and further their cause.

xingu wrote:
Bush's invasion of Iraq is gives credibility to this argument.


How?

xingu wrote:
This is especially true in light of the fact that every reason Bush gave for the invasion was false.


Please show me the proof that all of his reasons were false. Those are serious accusations.

xingu wrote:
Now Bush is beating the war drums against Iran and doing so with the same arguments as Iraq.


Yes, that's unfortunate, but a fact of life, that when your neighbor exterminates their apartment for roaches, the rodents invariably make their way to the closest, dirtiest apartment.

xingu wrote:
Bush claims to support democracy but supports governments that don't practice democracy.


Who said he wasn't supposed to? How is this any different than most other presidents in our history?

Sure, it would be tempting to excommunicate all those who are not democratic republics. But this would be bad strategy in a lot of things.

As a networker, if I were to not associate with or help anyone who didn't believe the way I did, this would cut down my social and business connections to the bone, and greatly decrease my success both personally and in business, not to mention my happiness and quality of life.

xingu wrote:
Bush claims that the UN must be obeyed and used the UN as an excuse to invade Iraq.


Every major global intelligence operation, along with the UN, voiced extreme concerned about Iraq, and stressed that something had to be done. Years passed, and no one had enough balls to step up to the plate and do something. This continued, until 9/11, which was more catastrophic than the bombing of Pearl Harbor. It was the last straw that broke the camel's back.

Bush bent over backward talking with the UN, global leaders, and Sadaam, but to no avail. In my opionion, Bush pussyfooted around too long. He should have done it sooner. But since he was trying to please everyone and his brother, a lot of time was wasted, which gave SH plenty of time to stash his load somewhere else.

xingu wrote:
Yet this country has continuously ignored Israels behavior in ignoring the UN.


The USA can't and shouldn't have to police every country on the face of the earth. The only reason we stepped in at all, was because of the top-level severity of the situation. We cannot sit back and take a blow of that caliber and not do anything about it. That is the (in)action of a coward.

xingu wrote:
And yes Iraq is the new training ground for terrorists. It's the new Afghanistan.


It was one of the major training grounds for terrorism, which is exactly one of the reasons why we went there, to begin with. Bush made it clear that we (the US) would sytematically go after those who continued to harbor terrorists. A lot of it has now been knocked out, and the place is no longer the hotbed it was, for terrorist training.

On the other hand, the turmoil has obviously, recently increased. The terrorists are swarming into Iraq from other countries like flies. On the positive side, one could say that this is beneficial, because you can fight them there, since they're concentrated in a major area. (sort of like being able to swat a group of flies with one swat) On the negative side, this poses a new problem which calls for a new strategy, which we apparently don't have, as of yet. Since no one has ever fought this kind of grand-scale, unconventional war, we can only move forward, and learn as we go.
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PoetSeductress
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 10:29 pm
Re: Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
nimh wrote:
PoetSeductress wrote:
nimh wrote:
But anti-American revulsion among the population at large is now significantly bigger than 10 years ago.
Which Muslim population? The moderate secular Muslims? The radical secular Muslims? The True Islamists?

I would like to see the official numbers on it. Otherwise, the claims here are empty.

And where do you suggest one would be able to get "the official numbers" on how many Muslims, throughout a part of the world scattered with dictatorships, like or dislike Americans?


Yes, nimh, you've made a good point. I don't know where to get an accurate, trustworthy count, either. In this case, one cannot state as a fact, "...anti-American revulsion among the population at large is now significantly bigger than 10 years ago". In order to maintain the integrity of this statement, it must be put forth as your personal viewpoint. >> Please see this post.
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PoetSeductress
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 10:34 pm
Is there anything that the U.S. doesn't get blamed for?
xingu wrote:
PoetSeductress

I don't disagree with the premise that there has always been, and may always be, Muslim terrorists.

What irks me is Bush has made their job easier by his invasion of Iraq. At times I wonder whose side he's on, ours or Osama's.


Thanks, xingu. But seriously, how has he made their easier?
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