2
   

Information control, or, How to get to Orwellian governance

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Mar, 2007 01:03 pm
POINTS OF VIEW

ABC
CBS
CNBC
CNN
C-SPAN
FNC
MSNBC
NBC
PBS

Boston Globe
New York Times
Los Angeles Times
Washington Post
Wall Street Journal

So, FNC (i.e., Fox News Channel) attracts an Question unfair Question share of television news viewers, and the Wall Street Journal attracts an Question unfair Question share of newspaper readers.

To fix this alleged unfairness, you recommend what? FNC and Wall Street Journal must be required to present the same percentage of leftist viewpoints as do the others Question Rolling Eyes

I think most leftist viewpoints are irrational. I do not want to be forced to expose myself to them anymore than I am already forced to expose myself to them.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 10:11 am
I want to toss in something here which argues for the value of the way activism and the internet have meshed together. The story of the eight fired prosecutors was picked up two months ago by Josh Marshall whose people continued to research the story and push it forward. It looks very likely that the story would have been missed without these peoples' work.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 11:11 am
blatham wrote:
I want to toss in something here which argues for the value of the way activism and the internet have meshed together. The story of the eight fired prosecutors was picked up two months ago by Josh Marshall whose people continued to research the story and push it forward. It looks very likely that the story would have been missed without these peoples' work.

What is it about the news story of the eight fired federal prosecutors that justifies its attention?

Why were they fired?

I assume they were fired because the administration did not like the way they were doing their jobs. That is an adequate reason. Such firing does not require Congressional approval or oversight.

President Clinton fired about ninety federal prosecutors shortly after he was inaugurated. Did he have an adequate reason? He selected the federal prosecuter replacements that he thought would do better the job he wanted done. This too was an adequate reason. Such firing and hiring does not require Congressional approval or oversight.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 01:21 pm
ican711nm wrote:
blatham wrote:
I want to toss in something here which argues for the value of the way activism and the internet have meshed together. The story of the eight fired prosecutors was picked up two months ago by Josh Marshall whose people continued to research the story and push it forward. It looks very likely that the story would have been missed without these peoples' work.

What is it about the news story of the eight fired federal prosecutors that justifies its attention?

Why were they fired?

I assume they were fired because the administration did not like the way they were doing their jobs. That is an adequate reason. Such firing does not require Congressional approval or oversight.

President Clinton fired about ninety federal prosecutors shortly after he was inaugurated. Did he have an adequate reason? He selected the federal prosecuter replacements that he thought would do better the job he wanted done. This too was an adequate reason. Such firing and hiring does not require Congressional approval or oversight.


Sorry, Ican. I'm not going to play with you. I find your posts and thinking ceaselessly partisan and doctrinaire and your reading habits designed to make you even moreso. I'm sure I'd like you but I'm not hopeful a conversation will get either of us anywhere. No hard feelings in this.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 01:37 pm
blatham wrote:
I want to toss in something here which argues for the value of the way activism and the internet have meshed together. The story of the eight fired prosecutors was picked up two months ago by Josh Marshall whose people continued to research the story and push it forward. It looks very likely that the story would have been missed without these peoples' work.


Possibly, but in this bitter political season it seems likely that anything that might become grist for the mills of the contending parties will eventually be put into play.

I believe a sufficient explanation for the initial quiet is that the firings are not at all remarkable, unusual or unprecedented. These are political appointees who serve at the president's pleasure and sole discretion. Much larger numbers have been fired and replaced in recent years with less explanation and less controversy.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 01:38 pm
blatham wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
blatham wrote:
I want to toss in something here which argues for the value of the way activism and the internet have meshed together. The story of the eight fired prosecutors was picked up two months ago by Josh Marshall whose people continued to research the story and push it forward. It looks very likely that the story would have been missed without these peoples' work.

What is it about the news story of the eight fired federal prosecutors that justifies its attention?

Why were they fired?

I assume they were fired because the administration did not like the way they were doing their jobs. That is an adequate reason. Such firing does not require Congressional approval or oversight.

President Clinton fired about ninety federal prosecutors shortly after he was inaugurated. Did he have an adequate reason? He selected the federal prosecuter replacements that he thought would do better the job he wanted done. This too was an adequate reason. Such firing and hiring does not require Congressional approval or oversight.


Sorry, Ican. I'm not going to play with you. I find your posts and thinking ceaselessly partisan and doctrinaire and your reading habits designed to make you even moreso. I'm sure I'd like you but I'm not hopeful a conversation will get either of us anywhere. No hard feelings in this.


But you dont deny that the President has the right to Fire the prosecutors,if he so chooses?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 02:03 pm
mysteryman wrote:
blatham wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
blatham wrote:
I want to toss in something here which argues for the value of the way activism and the internet have meshed together. The story of the eight fired prosecutors was picked up two months ago by Josh Marshall whose people continued to research the story and push it forward. It looks very likely that the story would have been missed without these peoples' work.

What is it about the news story of the eight fired federal prosecutors that justifies its attention?

Why were they fired?

I assume they were fired because the administration did not like the way they were doing their jobs. That is an adequate reason. Such firing does not require Congressional approval or oversight.

President Clinton fired about ninety federal prosecutors shortly after he was inaugurated. Did he have an adequate reason? He selected the federal prosecuter replacements that he thought would do better the job he wanted done. This too was an adequate reason. Such firing and hiring does not require Congressional approval or oversight.


Sorry, Ican. I'm not going to play with you. I find your posts and thinking ceaselessly partisan and doctrinaire and your reading habits designed to make you even moreso. I'm sure I'd like you but I'm not hopeful a conversation will get either of us anywhere. No hard feelings in this.


But you dont deny that the President has the right to Fire the prosecutors,if he so chooses?


I deny it. There exist several different circumstances in which the president would not be allowed to axe a US attorney.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 02:07 pm
blatham wrote:

...
Sorry, Ican. I'm not going to play with you.
...

Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 02:13 pm
blatham wrote:
I want to toss in something here which argues for the value of the way activism and the internet have meshed together. The story of the eight fired prosecutors was picked up two months ago by Josh Marshall whose people continued to research the story and push it forward. It looks very likely that the story would have been missed without these peoples' work.

On this general point, I think you'll get little opposition from Republican. Who knows what would have happened if Drudge Report hadn't broken the Lewinski story, or if bloggers hadn't scrutinized the counterfeited "Bush dodged the draft" document that Dan Rather so naively fell for ....
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 02:20 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I deny it. There exist several different circumstances in which the president would not be allowed to axe a US attorney.

Cycloptichorn

I think no one is allowed to axe anyone.

Or, did you mean there exist several different circumstances in which the president would not be allowed to fire a US attorney? If this is what you meant, then please describe one such circumstance other than when Congress has appointed a US attorney.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 02:24 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I deny it. There exist several different circumstances in which the president would not be allowed to axe a US attorney.

Cycloptichorn

I think no one is allowed to axe anyone.

Or, did you mean there exist several different circumstances in which the president would not be allowed to fire a US attorney? If this is what you meant, then please describe one such circumstance other than when Congress has appointed a US attorney.


The President cannot fire a US attorney to attempt to block any type of investigation,that much I know.

But as far as I know,that is not the case in ANY of the firings the left is screaming about.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 02:31 pm
Screaming? Laughing

Lam notified DOJ that she was executing warrants to expand her investigation and that those warrants would involve a top CIA official.

The next day an e-mail was sent to have her fired.

She was fired.

So far I have not been able to find any information that indicates the warrants / investigation continued with the new US Attorney.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 05:43 am
Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/washington/20climate.html?hp

Earlier, I asked you guys if you might come up with some set of descriptors of what defines or identifies the "Orwellian". Ican gave several seriously insufficient quotations from 1984 and george figured that was good enough. This wasn't a tough assignment, you could even have just turned to wikipedia. If you had bothered to go to any work thinking (or reading and pasting) one fundamental you would have come up with is the control of information and belief through the government/party re-writing documents contemporary or historical so as to hide anything inimical to the government/party's interests. It was the function of the Ministry of Truth in 1984. And what you see above is this function in operation.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 07:15 am
mysteryman wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I deny it. There exist several different circumstances in which the president would not be allowed to axe a US attorney.

Cycloptichorn

I think no one is allowed to axe anyone.

Or, did you mean there exist several different circumstances in which the president would not be allowed to fire a US attorney? If this is what you meant, then please describe one such circumstance other than when Congress has appointed a US attorney.


The President cannot fire a US attorney to attempt to block any type of investigation,that much I know.
You don't seem to know much mm since what you know isn't even true. Certainly you remember the Saturday night massacre during Nixon's term. A president can fire anyone that works for him including US attorneys. That is a given. Whether that firing will have political and other consequences is the thing he needs to consider.
Quote:

But as far as I know,that is not the case in ANY of the firings the left is screaming about.
This is one of those times where the firings are creating political and other consequences. Why? Because they WH and Justice department seem to have lied to the Congress about those firings. Once again, it isn't the act but the coverup that is getting them in trouble.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:22 am
What does the opposite of Orwellian information control look like?

Try here, The National Coalition for History...
Quote:

http://www.h-net.org/~nch/
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 12:29 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/washington/20climate.html?hp

Earlier, I asked you guys if you might come up with some set of descriptors of what defines or identifies the "Orwellian". Ican gave several seriously insufficient quotations from 1984 and george figured that was good enough. This wasn't a tough assignment, you could even have just turned to wikipedia. If you had bothered to go to any work thinking (or reading and pasting) one fundamental you would have come up with is the control of information and belief through the government/party re-writing documents contemporary or historical so as to hide anything inimical to the government/party's interests. It was the function of the Ministry of Truth in 1984. And what you see above is this function in operation.

Both your post and the NYT article were very biased and selective in just what was reported, and overall,were superficial in the extreme -- in contrast to the very explicit and unjustified conclusions stated.

Rep Henry Waxman is hardly a dispassionate searcher for the truth. His hearings were a highly partisan attempt to recycle old news for a few political headlines. The Dr Hansen story has been through the mill several times - he is a contrarian civil servant with just enough political support to survive his repeated misuses of his position and the authority of the agency he purports to serve.

The documents being "edited" were mostly budget requests and agency policy documents - stuff under the normal purview of the executive. They were not the products of science or scientists.

Our European friends, most recently the British, are very staunch supporters of the current Global Warming cult, particularly in their rhetoric and the "scientific" analyses they publish so profligately. However, their actions, and the things they actually undertake to do, paint a very different picture. Their most recent "scientific"product claims that unchecked AGW will consume 20% of the global economic product, while controlling it will cost "only" 1%. However if you read it carefully you will find that the estimate of the cost of unchecked AGW comes mostly from "certain low probability events" whose probability they have estimated. The problem is that science provides no basis whatever for estimating the likelihood of these occurrances -- they are about as likely, and as unpredictable, as the sudden collapse of the earth's magnetic field or a major asteroid impact, both of which would have far worse consequences.

Who is really engaging in "Orwellian" manipulation of the truth here?

I believe you have chosen the wrong target.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 12:39 pm
Well George, but neither HM the Queen, Blair or someone else forced or hindered that publication.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 01:28 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well George, but neither HM the Queen, Blair or someone else forced or hindered that publication.


Is that a statement of praise or condemnation? Is the bureaucracy of the British government beyond the influence or control of its political leaders? I really don't think so.

In his own statements Blair has been fully supportive of the AGW hysteria, so it is plausible to believe the recent report had his explicit approval.

What I find so intriguing is the enormous gulf between the rhetoric of the European political leaders on this subject and the concrete actions they take to do something about it - even in their own countries. What has become of the bold promises made only seven years ago about the improvements they would achieve?

Do they really believe that, with this in mind, they will be able to persuade China and India to forego their ambitions for greater prosperity, or the African nations to end the disease and misery that now afflicts them? I can understand the political benefit accrued through their criticism of the United States, but I cannot see any of this as contributing to a serious resolution to the inderlying issue (the real one, not the overhyped version put forward by the cultists).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 01:52 pm
I don't know if they/we can persuade China and India.

But I do hope that not only I was educated that way to clear at first in the own home before others asking to do it as well.

It's a long way, but I really think we are on that ... path.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 01:58 pm
blatham wrote:
What does the opposite of Orwellian information control look like?

Try here, The National Coalition for History...
Quote:
...
Anyone who wondered if a Democratically-controlled Congress would make a difference for historians, archivists, and journalists need look no further than what transpired in the House of Representatives on March 14, 2007. On that day three bills mandating increased public disclosure by the federal government all passed the House by substantial margins.

http://www.h-net.org/~nch/

Unstated here is a description of the true nature of the "difference for historians, archivists, and journalists" that was made by the Democratically-controlled Congress. Nor was anything said about the veracity of what the "historians, archivists, and journalists" will actually publish about that to which they may gain access.

A government can publically practice Orwellian Information Control by either itself making false assertions about what is in the disclosed public records, or by paying and eventually forcing "historians, archivists, and journalists" to do the same thing. Wealthy individuals can band together and privately pay for the samething (e.g., the Soros gang) and thereby eventually end up buying that government which continues for them their formally private practice.

Government's power to falsify is not reduced by merely opening its files to the public. It is also necessary to limit the functions government performs so as to limit the functions government can corrupt. One way to limit the functions government performs is to limit government's tax revenue. One way to limit government's tax revenue is for individuals to limit the amount of tax they voluntarily choose to pay (e.g., "the Boston tea party").
0 Replies
 
 

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