2
   

Information control, or, How to get to Orwellian governance

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Jan, 2007 08:48 pm
JTT has it spot on on Ticomaya. Good to see I'm not the only one that agrees that Ticomaya sticks his nose where he shouldn't, but when he does has it mostly wrong.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 07:16 pm
Civility is a reliable indicator of a person with respect for himself and for others. It is also an important element in the satisfactions people get out of their interactions with others - in our daily lives, and here on A2K.

Some of my most enjoyable exchanges on these forums have been with people with whom I disagree strongly. I enjoy the challenge of debunking ideas and opinions with which I disagree (even if I don't persuade my interlocutor of the rightness of my views) , and, every now and then, I pick up something new - ideas, facts, sources or personal interpretations of things which I had not fully considered.

It is one thing to find someone in error, in his/her facts or in interpretations of them. It is quite another to make sweeping judgements against the person or character one of whom we no nothing but what is written here. Worse still is expressing these, frankly stupid views in place of of a response to disagreement. This kind of incivility reduces the value of the forum to all participants, and is frankly demeaning to those who indulge in it.

The last several pages on this thread are filled with this stuff, and I wish the purveyors would reflect a bit on it and stop.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 08:46 pm
Count me as one to appreciate your comments, George. I admit to using sarcasm, but I do not think name calling is appropriate. As a conservative, I honestly find some opinions surprising, and sometimes pretty shocking, and even scary. I hold no personal hatred toward anyone, but I do admit to growing very impatient with those people that I perceive of having no love or respect for the law or this country and the freedoms it affords all of us. Impatience grows into sarcasm in some of my posts, but no ill will is wished for anyone, not even plainoldme.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Feb, 2007 10:05 pm
Wise words, george.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 04:10 am
ican711nm wrote:
blatham wrote:
Quote:
Fighting for Air: The Battle to Control America's Media
by Eric Klinenberg
Metropolitan Books. 352 pp. $26

By Michael Shudson

American democracy is lost unless citizen Davids do battle against the corporate media Goliaths. We have heard this rallying cry before, and we hear it again in Eric Klinenberg’s Fighting for Air. But Klinenberg, a sociologist at New York University, has humanized and dramatized the argument by writing a book based on extensive original reporting. It is an investigative work, not a rant; it is both intellectually serious and politically passionate, and so it challenges readers like me who have never been much impressed with the claim that media concentration is destroying the Republic.
http://www.cjr.org/issues/2007/1/Schudson.asp

George Soros and associates:
Quote:
I do not accept the rules imposed by others. If I did, I would not be alive today. I am a law-abiding citizen, but I recognize that there are regimes that need to be opposed rather than accepted. And in periods of regime change, the normal rules don't apply. One needs to adjust one's behavior to the changing circumstances.

Usually it takes a crisis to prompt a meaningful change in direction.

Ousting Bush from the White House is the central focus of my life. It's a matter of life and death.

My greatest fear is that the Bush Doctrine will succeed--that Bush will crush the terrorists, tame the rogue states of the axis of evil, and usher in a golden age of American supremacy. American supremacy is flawed and bound to fail in the long run.

What I am afraid of is that the pursuit of American supremacy may be successful for a while because the United States in fact employs a dominant position in the world today.

These are not normal times.

Now the Democratic Party is our party. We bought it, we own it.


As relevant as soup is to nuts. And you know better than to omit your source.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 04:46 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Civility is a reliable indicator of a person with respect for himself and for others. It is also an important element in the satisfactions people get out of their interactions with others - in our daily lives, and here on A2K.

Some of my most enjoyable exchanges on these forums have been with people with whom I disagree strongly. I enjoy the challenge of debunking ideas and opinions with which I disagree (even if I don't persuade my interlocutor of the rightness of my views) , and, every now and then, I pick up something new - ideas, facts, sources or personal interpretations of things which I had not fully considered.

It is one thing to find someone in error, in his/her facts or in interpretations of them. It is quite another to make sweeping judgements against the person or character one of whom we no nothing but what is written here. Worse still is expressing these, frankly stupid views in place of of a response to disagreement. This kind of incivility reduces the value of the forum to all participants, and is frankly demeaning to those who indulge in it.

The last several pages on this thread are filled with this stuff, and I wish the purveyors would reflect a bit on it and stop.


As purveyor #1, let me assure you that I've reflected on these matters both often and in depth. That reflection has left me morally disgusted with a group of people here who, along with others in the broad community, continue to forward an militarist ethos and ideology which is not merely authoritarian but which forwards sweeping hatreds and which demonstrates a near austistic disconnection from awareness of human suffering. I've stopped caring that so many of you have no apparent means of or apparent interest in rising above your delusional and dangerous nationalist mythologies or partisan loyalties or perverted uses of christianity. If you guys were only phucking up yourselves, I'd have some remaining sympathy but the world is a far worse place than it was six years ago and each of you bears a hell of a lot more responsibility for that than I have any expectation that you'll glimpse.

I perceive about as much reason for holding to some drawing-room notions of manners as I would when the guys sitting around me in the pub decided to go out and form a lynch mob.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 04:50 am
Which doesn't mean I don't like you, sort-of.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:07 am
blatham wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
...

The last several pages on this thread are filled with this stuff, and I wish the purveyors would reflect a bit on it and stop.


As purveyor #1, let me assure you that I've reflected on these matters both often and in depth. That reflection has left me morally disgusted with a group of people here who, along with others in the broad community, continue to forward an militarist ethos and ideology which is not merely authoritarian but which forwards sweeping hatreds and which demonstrates a near austistic disconnection from awareness of human suffering. I've stopped caring that so many of you have no apparent means of or apparent interest in rising above your delusional and dangerous nationalist mythologies or partisan loyalties or perverted uses of christianity. If you guys were only phucking up yourselves, I'd have some remaining sympathy but the world is a far worse place than it was six years ago and each of you bears a hell of a lot more responsibility for that than I have any expectation that you'll glimpse.

I perceive about as much reason for holding to some drawing-room notions of manners as I would when the guys sitting around me in the pub decided to go out and form a lynch mob.
damn have I missed something?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:15 am
Nothing of importance. Anger, denial, huge bucks for the military industrial machine, politicians who are so spoiled and rich and disconnected from the rest of humanity that they are absolutely happy to have people blown to **** while they shop about for a few hundred more acres of grouse-hunting ranchland.

And, as to information control for political advantage...
Quote:
U.S. Reconfigures the Way Casualty Totals Are Given

By DENISE GRADY
Published: February 2, 2007
Statistics on a Pentagon Web site have been reorganized in a way that lowers the published totals of American nonfatal casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Dr. Michael Kilpatrick, deputy director of force health protection and readiness at the Defense Department, said the previous method of tallying casualties was misleading and might have made injuries and combat wounds seem worse and more numerous than they really were.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/02/us/02wounded.html?_r=1&oref=login
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:41 am
This from the latest New Scientist magazine

New Scientist wrote:


Suppressing science that doesnt toe the White House line is standard procedure at US federal agencies. Last year two workers at NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration accused PR officers of muzzling climate scientists (NS 25 Feb 06). Now tow non profit groups based in Washington DC have investigated seven governmnet agencies to see how pervasive the practice is. The Union of Concerned Scientists and the Government Accountability Project surveyed almost 300 scientists, carried out 40 interviews and searched thousands of the agencies' internal documents. Over 40 percent of survey respondends reported pressure to eliminate words like "climate change" from reports and edit climate related work to change its meaning. Congress may now pressure the agencies to stop suppressing or misrepresenting science, by forcing their heads to testify to inquiries and drafting legislation to protect scientists views.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 10:01 am
blatham wrote:

As purveyor #1, let me assure you that I've reflected on these matters both often and in depth. That reflection has left me morally disgusted with a group of people here who, along with others in the broad community, continue to forward an militarist ethos and ideology which is not merely authoritarian but which forwards sweeping hatreds and which demonstrates a near austistic disconnection from awareness of human suffering. I've stopped caring that so many of you have no apparent means of or apparent interest in rising above your delusional and dangerous nationalist mythologies or partisan loyalties or perverted uses of christianity. If you guys were only phucking up yourselves, I'd have some remaining sympathy but the world is a far worse place than it was six years ago and each of you bears a hell of a lot more responsibility for that than I have any expectation that you'll glimpse.

I perceive about as much reason for holding to some drawing-room notions of manners as I would when the guys sitting around me in the pub decided to go out and form a lynch mob.


blatham, as far as you are on the other end of the political spectrum, I still think you would probably make a fairly decent neighbor. At least that is my theory.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 10:07 am
blatham wrote:
As purveyor #1, let me assure you that I've reflected on these matters both often and in depth. That reflection has left me morally disgusted with a group of people here who, along with others in the broad community, continue to forward an militarist ethos and ideology which is not merely authoritarian but which forwards sweeping hatreds and which demonstrates a near austistic disconnection from awareness of human suffering. I've stopped caring that so many of you have no apparent means of or apparent interest in rising above your delusional and dangerous nationalist mythologies or partisan loyalties or perverted uses of christianity. If you guys were only phucking up yourselves, I'd have some remaining sympathy but the world is a far worse place than it was six years ago and each of you bears a hell of a lot more responsibility for that than I have any expectation that you'll glimpse.

I perceive about as much reason for holding to some drawing-room notions of manners as I would when the guys sitting around me in the pub decided to go out and form a lynch mob.


My disgust is with the group of A2K'ers -- the huge lot of them -- who continue to deny the very real global threat Islamic terrorism poses, and who would prefer to allow the threat to grow until it is incontrollable before they felt any obligation or compulsion to do anything about it -- if they ever would. They are the appeasers, the Neville Chamberlains, who believe negotiations are the only acceptable course of action to combat this growing threat. They are blinded to the dangers of allowing Iran to have nuclear weapons, and blinded by their visceral hatred of George Bush, whom they believe to be the greatest threat to the world since Adolph Hitler. I often think anti-war types are pleased when terrorists create chaos in Iraq so they can feel they were right, and the supporters of the invasion were wrong. Peacenik-leftists have a general attitude of anger about this subject, and are often difficult to reason with. Their rhetoric is quite noble, but by looking constantly at the stars they ignore what is real and happening around them, caring primarily for the glory of their ideals.

Bernie has announced time and again that he does not believe I am capable of "changing my mind regardless of data input." What that really means is he is frustrated that no matter what he has said, I haven't yet adopted his extreme left-wing view of the world and of the Iraq conflict. He fails to comprehend -- it appears -- that he has NEVER demonstrated any flexibility of thought on the subject. Regardless of the many arguments I have made regarding the justification of the Iraq invasion, he has never shown a glimmer of coming around to understanding the error of his current thinking on the matter. And despite the obvious fact that we are there now and the reasonable and wise thing to do is continue on until a modicum of peace and stability is attained there, these people think we should just tuck tail and flee, leaving the Iraqi people to clean up the mess. This brand of liberalism disgusts me.

So if I had the shallow degree of character displayed of late by Bernie, I would just go ballistic at the constant and inane blatherings of these folks who have blinders on to any view other than their own, yet who claim moral superiority in deed and thought, and accuse others of inflexible thinking. If my thinking were skewed in such a manner, I might think the best course of action to take would be to shun intellectual interaction with these wrong-thinking leftists. And, of course, I could be counted on to abandon civility in my discourse, rationalizing that I was a white knight bearing the banner of my cause by treating these people with contempt and discourtesy. Thankfully, I have not yet reached that low point.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 10:37 am
Thankfully. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 10:55 am
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
As purveyor #1, let me assure you that I've reflected on these matters both often and in depth. That reflection has left me morally disgusted with a group of people here who, along with others in the broad community, continue to forward an militarist ethos and ideology which is not merely authoritarian but which forwards sweeping hatreds and which demonstrates a near austistic disconnection from awareness of human suffering. I've stopped caring that so many of you have no apparent means of or apparent interest in rising above your delusional and dangerous nationalist mythologies or partisan loyalties or perverted uses of christianity. If you guys were only phucking up yourselves, I'd have some remaining sympathy but the world is a far worse place than it was six years ago and each of you bears a hell of a lot more responsibility for that than I have any expectation that you'll glimpse.

I perceive about as much reason for holding to some drawing-room notions of manners as I would when the guys sitting around me in the pub decided to go out and form a lynch mob.


My disgust is with the group of A2K'ers -- the huge lot of them -- who continue to deny the very real global threat Islamic terrorism poses,...


Is this something you are just saying because it sounds good...or are there actually people who do not see the "...real global threat Islamic terrorism poses?"

Any chance that you simply see anyone who does not subscribe to your way of thinking about how that threat ought to be dealt with...as not seeing the threat?



Quote:
...and who would prefer to allow the threat to grow until it is incontrollable before they felt any obligation or compulsion to do anything about it -- if they ever would. They are the appeasers, the Neville Chamberlains, who believe negotiations are the only acceptable course of action to combat this growing threat. They are blinded to the dangers of allowing Iran to have nuclear weapons, and blinded by their visceral hatred of George Bush, whom they believe to be the greatest threat to the world since Adolph Hitler.


Although I wish both Adolph Hitler and Neville Chamberlain had not been born...because their use as illustrations is so phuking overused...

...the bottom line is that I don't think George Bush is the greatest threat to the world since Adolph Hitler. I think he is more of a threat...and I would have to go on record as saying that George Bush is the greatest threat to the world since at least as far back as Caligula. Except, of course, that Caligula appears to have been smarter.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:11 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
As purveyor #1, let me assure you that I've reflected on these matters both often and in depth. That reflection has left me morally disgusted with a group of people here who, along with others in the broad community, continue to forward an militarist ethos and ideology which is not merely authoritarian but which forwards sweeping hatreds and which demonstrates a near austistic disconnection from awareness of human suffering. I've stopped caring that so many of you have no apparent means of or apparent interest in rising above your delusional and dangerous nationalist mythologies or partisan loyalties or perverted uses of christianity. If you guys were only phucking up yourselves, I'd have some remaining sympathy but the world is a far worse place than it was six years ago and each of you bears a hell of a lot more responsibility for that than I have any expectation that you'll glimpse.

I perceive about as much reason for holding to some drawing-room notions of manners as I would when the guys sitting around me in the pub decided to go out and form a lynch mob.


My disgust is with the group of A2K'ers -- the huge lot of them -- who continue to deny the very real global threat Islamic terrorism poses,...


Is this something you are just saying because it sounds good...or are there actually people who do not see the "...real global threat Islamic terrorism poses?"

Any chance that you simply see anyone who does not subscribe to your way of thinking about how that threat ought to be dealt with...as not seeing the threat?


No chance, Frank. I am constantly reading passages from your fellow-travelers who minimize the dangers posed by global Islamic terrorism. These are the people who maintain our reaction to 9/11 has been an overreaction. Who suggest that when looked at in the grand scheme of things, terrorism isn't that big of a deal. Have you not noticed these people here?

I recognize there are those leftist A2K'ers who realize Islamic terrorism is a threat to the US and the rest of the Western world, and who simply disagree with the Iraq effort as a proper way of dealing with that threat. But invariably, these people have indicated in some way they do not believe the threat to be as dangerous, real, or imminent as I believe it to be. These are the folks who would suggest allowing Iran to obtain nuclear weapons is acceptable. These are the appeasers I was referring to in my last post. These are the folks who have attempted to argue that they can be patriotic Americans if they want the US to lose in Iraq. These are the people who have allowed their hatred of George Bush to cause them to take their eye off of what ought to be a mutual goal -- eliminating global terrorism -- and instead focus on Bush, whom they view to be an even greater threat to the world. You, apparently, fit within this latter category.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:15 am
Quote:
But invariably, these people have indicated in some way they do not believe the threat to be as dangerous, real, or imminent as I believe it to be


Raises hand. You see, I am not as weak and willing to give into fear as you are. I am not as scared by Islaamic terrorism as those of your bent are. I don't believe that it is as dangerous, as real, or as imminent as you believe it to be.

And there's no objective reason for me to. I haven't bought into the fearmongering that you have. There hasn't been a lot of proof presented showing that I should be afraid; there hasn't been any emphasis on defense here at home, and given the nature of asymmetrical warfare there should be, if it truly is such a threat. So I don't buy it. Just more politics by fear.

The fact that those who push the War on Terror so damn strongly on offense, yet refuse to take action on defense whatsoever, shows me exactly how hollow the threat is. Just an excuse for war, nothing more.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:17 am
Frank Apisa wrote:

...the bottom line is that I don't think George Bush is the greatest threat to the world since Adolph Hitler. I think he is more of a threat...and I would have to go on record as saying that George Bush is the greatest threat to the world since at least as far back as Caligula. Except, of course, that Caligula appears to have been smarter.


This is what I was talking about when I said something like some opinions here on A2K are not only surprising, but shocking to say the least.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:21 am
I want to go on record here as standing resolutely against the defeatism and enemy-comforting traitorously evident in this NIE assessment...
Quote:
Iraq at Risk of Further Strife, Intelligence Report Warns

By Karen DeYoung and Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, February 2, 2007; Page A01

A long-awaited National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq, presented to President Bush by the intelligence community yesterday, outlines an increasingly perilous situation in which the United States has little control and there is a strong possibility of further deterioration, according to sources familiar with the document.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/01/AR2007020101152.html
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:27 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
But invariably, these people have indicated in some way they do not believe the threat to be as dangerous, real, or imminent as I believe it to be


Raises hand. You see, I am not as weak and willing to give into fear as you are. I am not as scared by Islaamic terrorism as those of your bent are. I don't believe that it is as dangerous, as real, or as imminent as you believe it to be.

And there's no objective reason for me to. I haven't bought into the fearmongering that you have. There hasn't been a lot of proof presented showing that I should be afraid; there hasn't been any emphasis on defense here at home, and given the nature of asymmetrical warfare there should be, if it truly is such a threat. So I don't buy it. Just more politics by fear.

The fact that those who push the War on Terror so damn strongly on offense, yet refuse to take action on defense whatsoever, shows me exactly how hollow the threat is. Just an excuse for war, nothing more.

Cycloptichorn


Don't think I didn't have you positioned at the head of that table, Cyclops

-----

Interesting note penned by Boortz this morning. Very apropos to this discussion:

Quote:
AMERICANS TAKING TERRORISM SERIOUSLY

According to a new poll, most Americans say terrorism should be taken very seriously. That's good, but there's only one problem. Every time we try to do something to stop terrorism, the appeasers react and send Democrats to Congress. Which means we're not taking terrorism very seriously. So why the contradiction?

The answer is simple...most people lack the will to fight a protracted war against terrorism. If we can do it in a week .. maybe a month, that's fine. But if it is going to take years to bring the Islamic terrorists under control .. Americans don't have the patience for it. A lot of people can't be convinced that some people are inherently evil. We like to buy the lie that most people are basically good and that if we were only nice to them or listened to their grievances, that they'll be nice back to us. We try and domesticate Islamic terrorists...legitimize them by trying to negotiate with them. There's only one problem: it doesn't work.

The only way to fight terrorism is to fight terrorism. And the way you do that is by killing them before they kill us. It's messy work, but somebody's gotta do it. So while the polls may show that Americans take terrorism seriously, you have to wonder if they really do when the same poll shows such opposition to the war in Iraq, which is filled with Islamic terrorists.

People can't have it both ways...you can't be against terrorism and for the terrorist. That's John Kerry's job.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:33 am
Quote:


The only way to fight terrorism is to fight terrorism. And the way you do that is by killing them before they kill us.


Ya see, here's the problem with guys like you and Boortz. No understanding of how the world works; you simplify problems into killing others before they can kill you. Idiotic approach to what is basically a civil and cultural and criminal problem, not a military problem; Al Qaeda is never going to be defeated by force of arms, ever. Anyone who thinks that it could has serious illusions about the nature of terrorism and asymmetrical warfare!

And look how great it's working out so far. Those who have been war cheerleaders have been consistently wrong about the whole thing, yet still act as if they have any credibility left. They don't, and there isn't any reason to believe a single prediction or prognostication they make.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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