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Information control, or, How to get to Orwellian governance

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 02:34 pm
georgeob1 wrote:

I believe the arguments offered in the piece from the Independent are biased and deliberately shortsighted.


Well, George, even the conservative media argued the same way ... they got their infos from a document which was made public yesterday by the UK's government:

Quote:
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 02:42 pm
I didn't say that the authors of this piece were the only shortsighted people involved. Blair was confronted with a small revolt of his generals and some diplomatic officials, all of whom had bought into the legalistic European view. We helped Blair solve his problem by going to the UN. That, I believe, was a mistake.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 07:22 pm
George Orwell in NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR wrote:

NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR
Part II, Chapter IX
The two aims of the Party are to conquer the whole surface of the earth and to extinguish once and for all the possibility of independent thought. There are therefore two great problems which the Party is concerned to solve. One is how to discover, against his will, what another human being is thinking, and the other is how to kill several hundred million people in a few seconds without giving warning beforehand.

Part III, Chapter II
It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party. That is the fact that you have got to relearn ... It needs an act of self-destruction, an effort of the will. You must humble yourself before you can become sane.

Part III, Chapter III
The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power.


The Sorosicks claim, "Now [the Democratic Party is] our party! We bought it, we own it. The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States."
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 02:26 am
georgeob1 wrote:
I didn't say that the authors of this piece were the only shortsighted people involved. Blair was confronted with a small revolt of his generals and some diplomatic officials, all of whom had bought into the legalistic European view. We helped Blair solve his problem by going to the UN. That, I believe, was a mistake.


According to today's The Guardian, the UK warned US that chaos would follow tyrant's fall. Evidence repudiates claims in run-up to war it is said there.



Quote:
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 06:40 am
george

Don't know what to say to you. Your casual and unthoughtful dismissal of Ross' statements mirrors precisely the earlier mistakes you made in assessment. Your assertion that the French government engages in propaganda is obviously true but your refusal to make or consider differentiations serves you only as justification, and it makes you functionally blind on this subject. How could it not? Your other assertion that the UN has a propaganda enterprise akin to what has developed in the US over the last thirty years is so far from being true or analogous that I'm utterly befuddled that you could write that sentence. Much has been written on the propaganda enterprise in modern US politics (you've studied none of it) and yet I'll wager that you cannot point me to a single study to support your contention re the UN.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 08:29 am
EXCLUSIVE: White House Forbids Publication Of Op-Ed On Iran By Former Bush Official

Quote:
Middle East analyst Flynt Leverett, who served under President Bush on the National Security Council and is now a fellow at the New America Foundation, revealed today that the White House has been blocking the publication of an op-ed he wrote for the New York Times. The column is critical of the administration's refusal to engage Iran.

Leverett's op-ed has already been cleared by the CIA
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plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:14 am
An interesting aside: Donald Rumsfeld's daughter had hyphenated her maiden name with her married name. Within the past month, she officially dropped the "Rumsfeld-" and is now known by her married name only.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 12:04 pm
blatham wrote:
george

Don't know what to say to you. Your casual and unthoughtful dismissal of Ross' statements mirrors precisely the earlier mistakes you made in assessment. Your assertion that the French government engages in propaganda is obviously true but your refusal to make or consider differentiations serves you only as justification, and it makes you functionally blind on this subject. How could it not? Your other assertion that the UN has a propaganda enterprise akin to what has developed in the US over the last thirty years is so far from being true or analogous that I'm utterly befuddled that you could write that sentence. Much has been written on the propaganda enterprise in modern US politics (you've studied none of it) and yet I'll wager that you cannot point me to a single study to support your contention re the UN.


I don't thionk I dismissed Ross' statements at all. There clearly was confusion among the parties as to what the UN resolution meant and didn't mean -- it was ambiguous enough to be easily misinterpreted. This is a common enoough feature of haard-fought and extensively negotiated resolutions of the Security Council. After-the fact disagreement on what they really mean is a common phenomenon. In this case the contemporaneous statements of the foreign ministers revealed the differencces immediately after the resolution passed. Even so our State Department exhibited an honest sense of betrayal at the subsequent French actions.

I don't recall ever sugggesting that the UN operated an effective propaganda machine. Indeed, I don't believe it does so. I do believe it is infected with a complacent and corrupt bureaucracy; that its programs are managed far less effectively than they should (and could) be; and that its proceedings, particularly in the General Assembly reflect the least common denominator of international political development. Many see the UN as a forn of international government. I do not. It is merely the creature of the sovereign governments that make it up; useful for the resolution of specific issues, and often helpful in ventillating international issues in a (relatively) non-confrontational way, but little more. The Secretary general is the chief administrative officer of its bureaucracy - not the president of the World.

U.S. politics is suffused with partisan rhetoric and propaganda on both sides - it has always been thus. You seem to imply there is something unique about the Republican version of it. This amazes me.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 12:31 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
The Secretary general is the chief administrative officer of its bureaucracy - not the president of the World.


As an aside: you're certainly here. However, from the very beginning, holders of this post never beat their opinion(s) behind the bush - though no-one really inforced the position of an UN Secretary General up to the level, Franclin D: Roosevelt wanted them to be: a "world moderator".
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 01:58 pm
plainoldme wrote:
An interesting aside: Donald Rumsfeld's daughter had hyphenated her maiden name with her married name. Within the past month, she officially dropped the "Rumsfeld-" and is now known by her married name only.


As you know, you proceed down the birth canal with the father you have. He's not the father you might want or wish to have at a later time.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 05:47 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:

As an aside: you're certainly here. However, from the very beginning, holders of this post never beat their opinion(s) behind the bush - though no-one really inforced the position of an UN Secretary General up to the level, Franclin D: Roosevelt wanted them to be: a "world moderator".


I agree with you on that point Walter. Roosevelt was a wise and effective politician, but he was wrong about many things. He saw British and French colonialism as far greater dangers in the post-war period than Soviet expansionism. He either failed to anticipate the reality of Soviet control of Eastern Europe, or was callously willing to see the desire of the Baltic states, Poland and Czechoslovakia for democratic national governments crushed by Soviet tyranny. His vision of the United Nations had several good points, but ignored utterly the knowable intentions of the Soviet Union.

All that aside, I believe the UN is indeed a "world moderator" of sorts. That, however, is a very different thing from a world government or source of law.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 10:23 pm
The question is, how effective is the UN today, and how effective will they be tomorrow?
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 07:47 am
Iraq threatens arrest of police officer

Quote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq -- The Interior Ministry acknowledged Thursday that an Iraqi police officer whose existence had been denied by the Iraqis and the U.S. military is in fact an active member of the force, and said he now faces arrest for speaking to the media.

Ministry spokesman Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, who had previously denied there was any such police employee as Capt. Jamil Hussein, said in an interview that Hussein is an officer assigned to the Khadra police station, as had been reported by The Associated Press.

The captain, whose full name is Jamil Gholaiem Hussein, was one of the sources for an AP story in late November about the burning and shooting of six people during a sectarian attack at a Sunni mosque.

The U.S. military and the Iraqi Interior Ministry raised the doubts about Hussein in questioning the veracity of the AP's initial reporting on the incident, and the Iraqi ministry suggested that many news organization were giving a distorted, exaggerated picture of the conflict in Iraq. Some Internet bloggers spread and amplified these doubts, accusing the AP of having made up Hussein's identity in order to disseminate false news about the war.

Khalaf offered no explanation Thursday for why the ministry had initially denied Hussein's existence, other than to state that its first search of records failed to turn up his full name. He also declined to say how long the ministry had known of its error and why it had made no attempt in the past six weeks to correct the public record.

Hussein was not the original source of the disputed report of the attack; the account was first told on Al-Arabiya satellite television by a Sunni elder, Imad al-Hashimi, who retracted it after members of the Defense Ministry paid him a visit. Several neighborhood residents subsequently gave the AP independent accounts of the Shiite militia attack on a mosque in which six people were set on fire and killed.


(the rest at the link)

Spreading democracy? Freedom of the press?
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jan, 2007 07:15 pm
The way things really are.

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plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2007 06:12 pm
Did you notice RightWingNutCase's call to the govt for help in eliminating journalists?
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jan, 2007 05:00 pm
test post
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jan, 2007 05:09 pm
ican711nm wrote:
test post


CONTAINMENT VIOLATION!!! AHOOOGAA AHOOGAA AHOOGAA
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 12:06 pm
Quote:
The Un-Fairness Doctrine: Unevening the Playing Field, by Law
By David Limbaugh
Wednesday, January 24, 2007


Beware of liberals using such words as "fairness." In resurrecting the "Fairness Doctrine," liberals are trying to kill conservative talk radio and restore their media monopoly. Period. The doctrine would selectively stifle free political discourse, which is essential for our representative government.

The Fairness Doctrine, an FCC regulation in force from 1949 to 1987, required broadcasters to present "both sides" of controversial issues. During that time, liberals had a virtual monopoly on the media.

Since the rule was repealed, conservative talk radio has exploded -- Rush Limbaugh launched his syndicated radio show in 1988 -- and other media outlets multiplied: the Internet, including blogs, cable and satellite TV and satellite radio, among others. The conservative viewpoint has fared quite well in the new media.

This is not to say that the government's elimination of the regulation discriminated against the liberal message. The liberal viewpoint still dominates the mainstream media, cable TV, except for Fox News, and the overwhelming number of major print media outlets. Liberals also have equal access to new media outlets, though they've had enormous difficulty competing in the marketplace of ideas.

It's instructive to remember that while conservatives grew hoarse complaining about the monolithic liberal message, they didn't advocate suppression of liberal speech. Their remedy, instituted -- fittingly -- in the Reagan years, was to open up, not constrict or regulate the media market.

The results have been dramatic, with conservatives finally having a significant voice in the media, albeit mostly in the new media, though a singular liberal message still prevails in the old media, not to mention public broadcasting.

Liberals can't stand the competition. Democratic Congressman Maurice Hinchey is sponsoring the "Media Ownership Reform Act," whose proposed reforms include the reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine. Hinchey denies wanting to muzzle conservative hosts. But, "This will ensure that different views will also be heard. People are being prevented from getting the right information." Really? Latest polls show 60 percent of Americans are opposed to the Iraq war. Will Hinchey not be satisfied until it's 90 percent?

This is nothing but abject sophistry. Different views are already heard -- and not just in the mainstream media. There have never been more media choices. Nothing -- except consumer resistance -- precludes liberal entry into the talk radio market. But the First Amendment doesn't require people to listen to and support your message.

Liberals had no interest in balance before the advent of conservative talk radio. They don't have any interest in balance now; indeed we're finally approaching a balance: new media versus old media. But to them "balance" means dominance, just like "bipartisanship" means Republican capitulation.

With the Fairness Doctrine liberals would use government to micromanage the content of talk radio, realizing that they simply can't compete on an equal playing field in that medium. Notably, they aren't advocating balancing the messages of the major print or broadcast media giants.

The reason liberals can't compete in talk radio, besides their hosts being boring, oppressively cynical and pessimistic, is that their would-be audience is already fed through the mainstream media.

Conversely, conservative talk has been successful, not just because it is more entertaining, professional and optimistic, but because conservative audiences were starved for a likeminded message.

The liberals' goal is not balance, but to destroy conservative talk radio by requiring that each nano-segment of every show contain the counterbalancing liberal viewpoint, instead of relying on other shows or other media to deliver that viewpoint. What will they demand next: that political candidates present both sides of every issue to ensure balance?

Such draconian hyper-monitoring would destroy those programs. Besides, there is no fair, sensible or practicable way to regulate content. Objectivity is impossible over such subjective matters.

What do the paternalistic proponents of the regulations mean by the representation of "all sides?" Would the terrorist viewpoint deserve equal time? Don't laugh, many believe that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and liberals routinely sympathize with tyrannical dictators like Fidel Castro and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

What is truly scary is that liberals believe that media outlets predominately presenting their viewpoint are not biased. To them, the liberal viewpoint is objectively correct -- the only proper way to view the world -- and the conservative one, aberrant and reality-challenged, not even deserving of First Amendment protection. Perhaps a slight exaggeration, but not much.

This arrogant mindset is what has troubled conservatives for years. It's not just that the mainstream media has presented a monolithic liberal message; it's that they denied their bias and purported to be completely objective in their selection and reporting of the news and commentary. At least with conservative talk, the hosts admit their bias and are honest about when they are editorializing.

The Fairness Doctrine must be stopped again, dead in its tracks.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 03:07 pm
I think David's dream of following in his brother's footsteps and earning millions through spreading hate and propaganda is in jeopardy. It is becoming increasingly likely that some legislation comparable to the Fairness Doctrine will be forwarded in the near future. How folks will go about figuring how to do this so as to maximize the dissemination of ideas while not placing too large a burden on broadcasters is the key problem.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Jan, 2007 03:37 pm
blatham wrote:
I It is becoming increasingly likely that some legislation comparable to the Fairness Doctrine will be forwarded in the near future.

I hope you are wrong on that. I prefer freedom.

blatham wrote:
How folks will go about figuring how to do this so as to maximize the dissemination of ideas while not placing too large a burden on broadcasters is the key problem.


Which, of course is the key question. Inescapably one is left with the opinion of some people or some groups concerning just what is "fair" and what is "not fair".


I really doubt that even a motivated Democrat Congress will be able to find a constitutional way to do this. The former regulations came out of the Congress' power to regulate broadcasting and private access to the frequency spectrum under the Regulation of Commerce clause. Even that was a close one constitutionally. Now with most news distributed over cable or the internet, I don't see how they will be able to justify it.
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