Information control, or, How to get to Orwellian governance

plainoldme wrote:

I said American conservatives of the 1960s, not the first American settlers.

However, the ideas of Calvin were known to the earliest New Englanders. You should have learned this in your history classes.

Does predestination ring a bell?

For it to find its way into the 1960s, I would think it would have had to first find its way into the first American settlers? Just curious, pom, as this seems to be the subject you pride yourself in understanding very well.

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Make sure he does his homework, POM. This is American history the fellow really ought to be reading about.

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blatham -- Thanks for posting the link to Puritanism and Calvinism. I skimmed much, but not all, the material.

What amazes me is why some folks here don't do what I do. When a term or phrase is unfamiliar to me, I look it up, either on the web or in a dictionary or other reference book.

I generally save questions to individual posters to their interpretation of terms or events, which is the real difficulty.

I was not going to post a link for okie, in part, because the influence of Calvin ought to be common knowledge although none of today's liberals/progressives comment on the connection between Calvinism and AMerican Conservatism. I was just going to string my comments out, bit by bit and hoped he would gain a little intellectual independence.

Spending so much time among the Transcendentalists this summer brought home the difference between the more liberal Protestant sects and old-line Protestantism. (I visited Fruitlands, the site of a former community with Transcendental roots yesterday.)

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blatham wrote:

Make sure he does his homework, POM. This is American history the fellow really ought to be reading about.

I will be anxiously waiting. As coincidence has it, I have recently been reading about the Puritans, before this subject came up. I remember encountering John Calvin way back when in school, but I haven't read anything about him lately. Lets just say the intellectuals can draw all kinds of conclusions that might be presumptuous, but that doesn't make it correct. I will not say your Calvin link is totally invalid, perhaps not, but I suspect there is a whole lot more to this than meets the eye. But anyway, give it a try.

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One of my profs (an american and a really great guy) had spent a good part of his career studying the Transcendentalists.

Richard Hofstadter in Anti-Intellectualism in American Life writes wonderfully full and rich history re the early church in the US. One of the viewpoints I gained from him was a strong affinity for the early Puritans. One of the real positives they brought to early America was a love of disciplined education. The early universities were their doing.

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okie wrote:

Lets just say the intellectuals can draw all kinds of conclusions that might be presumptuous, but that doesn't make it correct. I will not say your Calvin link is totally invalid, perhaps not, but I suspect there is a whole lot more to this than meets the eye. But anyway, give it a try.

1.) Here, okie correctly excludes himself from the class of folks known as intellectuals.

2.) However, he does exactly what he accuses intellectuals of doing: presume. Notice how he automatically suspects the link, perhaps, because it lacks the imprimatur of the right.

3.) Ultimately, he forgives himself for not knowing what -- as Blatham put it -- he should.

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blatham -- Of course, they founded universities to train ministers. However, they also tried to include the Native Americans.

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plainoldme wrote:

1.) Here, okie correctly excludes himself from the class of folks known as intellectuals.

Proudly so, pom, just so you know that for sure.

To clarify, being intellectual doesn't make you wrong, but I don't think it makes one automatically right either. Academia may educate you, supposedly, however you may also be insulated from reality in terms of how things actually work out here, and what the doers are actually doing in fly-over country. I did graduate college once upon a time, and interestingly, some of the best professors in my chosen field of study were those that had practical experience outside of academia.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing colleges are really good for is to prove one has the ability to study, learn something, and pass tests, so that when one actually starts practicing your chosen profession, you are certified as a person that is capable of further learning during your work career in the real world what you actually need to know to do the things that will bring success. What you learned in college, if it stops there, won't take you to first base.

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okie

Be careful what you presume. I spent the last twenty-five years running my own small business renovating homes. In that period, I also did five years of university while following my own particular interests (kayaking, skiing, rec softball, archaeology, american history/politics, etc) and raising a daughter. The "real world", the "intellectual world"...they are both fine places.

Far rather than find myself in a contest with you, I'd just encourage you to read, read, read. American history is incredibly interesting.

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Congratulations on your accomplishments. I would have thought running a business would have turned you into a conservative, blatham. What went wrong?

I agree history is very interesting. We agree on that. The only problem is I used to not think so until maybe 20 years ago or so, and there are only so many hours in a day. And when you get sucked into wasting precious time on this forum almost every day, there is a shortage of time. I have learned a few things on this forum from researching stuff. That is the justification I give my wife and of course she is curious about it, so I recount the crazy opinions I read here, such as the blathams, the Parados's, the Advocates, the list goes on. Smile

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Okie- The cow wouldn't know the difference between Calvinism and the present day Conservative movement in the USA if it hit her in the derriere.

I don't think she can read or understand what is written. So I will attempt to report it in at a lower level.

First of all, American Conservatives believe STRONGLY and FERVENTLY in the ideas of Adam Smith and his "Wealth of Nations"

Calvin and Calvinism was completely opposed to such ideas.

The quintessential conservative( some say he was the founder of the conservative movement in the USA) Russell Kirk. He did not agree with one of the central concepts of Calvin's--"The leadership of the elect"--Rather, Kirk said that "leadership comes from men who have ability and courage which gives us the benefits of the fruits of our labors"

Where does the cow get the idea that Conservatism is Calvinism????

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okie wrote:

Congratulations on your accomplishments. I would have thought running a business would have turned you into a conservative, blatham. What went wrong?

Out of the debate and only for my personal learning, could you expand on this topic? For example, why running a business would turn you into a conservative?

Thanks for any development.

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One of the reasons, Francis, is that a LIBERAL, the opposite of a Consrvative, would call for more government services, driving up taxes.

An entrepreneur does not want additional taxes.

LIBERALS frequently look for more goverment actions in the way of INCOME REDISTRIBUTION.

Entrepreneurs, who, on average, earn more than others in a society, do not want INCOME REDISTRIBUTION!!

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But, if a large percentage of the market does not have any money, they cannot buy the goods and services the entrepenuer offers, or that his customer offers if he sells wholesale to the trade only.

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okie wrote:

Congratulations on your accomplishments. I would have thought running a business would have turned you into a conservative, blatham. What went wrong?

I agree history is very interesting. We agree on that. The only problem is I used to not think so until maybe 20 years ago or so, and there are only so many hours in a day. And when you get sucked into wasting precious time on this forum almost every day, there is a shortage of time. I have learned a few things on this forum from researching stuff. That is the justification I give my wife and of course she is curious about it, so I recount the crazy opinions I read here, such as the blathams, the Parados's, the Advocates, the list goes on.

Sorry. I didn't mean that as a braggy thing. Just thought I should let you know that the bookish thing has actually taken up less of my life than the stuff that gives us callouses. As kids, playing 'catch' or '500 up' or some other such game, it wasn't goalposts and backstops we had to avoid, it was the piles of fresh cowshit.

There are only so many hours, I know. Pity, isn't it. And aside from all else, you can pass on my best wishes to your understanding wife.

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It isn't a new thesis that this administration, for perceived political advantage (eg Rove's statements earlier this year as regards strategy for upcoming elections) has misrepresented the type or magnitude of threat posed to the people of the US by "terrorists".

Quote:

FBI Role in Terror Probe Questioned
Lawyers Point to Fine Line Between Sting and Entrapment

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 2, 2006; Page A01

Standing in an empty Miami warehouse on May 24 with a man he believed had ties to Osama bin Laden, a dejected Narseal Batiste talked of the setbacks to their terrorist plot and then uttered the words that helped put him in a federal prison cell.

"I want to fight some jihad," he allegedly said. "That's all I live for."

What Batiste did not know was that the bin Laden representative was really an FBI informant. The warehouse in which they were meeting had been rented and wired for sound and video by bureau agents, who were monitoring his every word.

Within a month, Batiste, 32, and six of his compatriots were arrested and charged with conspiracy to aid a terrorist organization and bomb a federal building. On June 23, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales held a news conference to announce the destruction of a terrorist cell inside the United States, hailing "our commitment to preventing terrorism through energetic law enforcement efforts aimed at detecting and thwarting terrorist acts."

But court records released since then suggest that what Gonzales described as a "deadly plot" was virtually the pipe dream of a few men with almost no ability to pull it off on their own. The suspects have raised questions in court about the FBI informants' role in keeping the plan alive...
At the hearing, Batiste's attorney, John Wylie, showed that the FBI's investigation found no evidence that his client had met with any real terrorist, received e-mails or wire transfers from the Middle East, possessed any al-Qaeda literature, or had even a picture of bin Laden.

more here

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BernardR wrote:

Where does the cow get the idea that Conservatism is Calvinism????

I think she said some intellectual teacher told her this once. And apparently it was a very profound revelation to her. I asked her to explain it to me and enlighten me as well, but I am still waiting.

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Francis wrote:

okie wrote:
Congratulations on your accomplishments. I would have thought running a business would have turned you into a conservative, blatham. What went wrong?

Out of the debate and only for my personal learning, could you expand on this topic? For example, why running a business would turn you into a conservative?

Thanks for any development.

People that run businesses learn first hand personal responsibility, the realities of the free market and competition, plus they usually are enlightened as to the punitive effects of too much government in the way of taxes and regulation. They usually also learn how useless and non-productive government is in comparison to the goods and services produced by businesses. There are many reasons, but these would provide a start.

I do not have any statistics, but it is my belief that business owners tend to be more conservative than the general population

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Francis wrote:

okie wrote:
Congratulations on your accomplishments. I would have thought running a business would have turned you into a conservative, blatham. What went wrong?

Out of the debate and only for my personal learning, could you expand on this topic? For example, why running a business would turn you into a conservative?

Thanks for any development.

Perhaps this is more true in the United States than in France, where the government takes a very active role in the activities of large businesses, often with partial ownership and government representation on the managing Boards of the enterprises. Here the divide between government and business is much greater.

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Yes, GeorgeOb1, and I am certain you are familiar with the horrendous statistics issuing out of that Socialistic "nightmare" which is France. A 10% Unemployment Rate capped by a ridiculously high 48% top rate for taxation.

Marxism is dead and Socialism is dying!!!!

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Information control, or, How to get to Orwellian governance

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