3
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:14 am
The intelligent people finally learn how to say, "I voted for it before I voted against it." Bush is too stupid to learn how to do that.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:18 am
I don't disagree with that sentiment, either. Bush is a great example of a simple man - probably with a good heart - being manipulated.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:29 am
If Bush was easily manipulated, his poll numbers would be amazingly high. The fact that his poll numbers are so low is that he is not easily manipulated. There are so few instances in which he was willing to be swayed from his core convicttions that you really have to scrounge deep into the pile to find the very few instances that there are. He is one of the few presidents of my time that we got exactly what was represented in the campaign. Right or wrong, he tells it like he sees it, and right or wrong, he has kept every campaign promise that was within his ower to keep.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 11:36 am
On another note, mostly because I don't have the time or inclination to start or track another thread, there is this (emphasis mine). If the wacko fringe of the Left keeps pulling stuff like this, we might as well deed over the USA to al Qaida now and start shopping for burkas and ordering our copy of the Qu'ran from Amazon.com

President Taylor
A federal judge rewrites the Constitution on war powers.

Friday, August 18, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

In our current era of polarized politics, it was probably inevitable that some judge somewhere would strike down the National Security Agency's warrantless wiretaps as unconstitutional. The temptations to be hailed as Civil Libertarian of the Year are just too great.

So we suppose a kind of congratulations are due to federal Judge Anna Diggs Taylor, who won her 10 minutes of fame yesterday for declaring that President Bush had taken upon himself "the inherent power to violate not only the laws of the Congress but the First and Fourth Amendments of the Constitution, itself." Oh, and by the way, the Jimmy Carter appointee also avers that "there are no hereditary Kings in America." In case you hadn't heard.

The 44-page decision, which concludes by issuing a permanent injunction against the wiretapping program, will doubtless occasion much rejoicing among the "imperial Presidency" crowd. That may have been part of her point, as, early in the decision, Judge Taylor refers with apparent derision to "the war on terror of this Administration."

We can at least be grateful that President Taylor's judgment won't be the last on the matter. The Justice Department immediately announced it will appeal and the injunction has been stayed for the moment. But her decision is all the more noteworthy for coming on the heels of the surveillance-driven roll up of the terrorist plot in Britain to blow up U.S.-bound airliners. In this environment, monitoring the communications of our enemies is neither a luxury nor some sinister plot to chill domestic dissent. It is a matter of life and death.

So let's set aside the judge's Star Chamber rhetoric and try to examine her argument, such as it is. Take the Fourth Amendment first. The "unreasonable search and seizure" and warrant requirements of that amendment have their roots in the 18th-century abuses of the British crown. Those abuses involved the search and arrest of the King's political opponents under general and often secret warrants.

Judge Taylor sees an analogy here, but she manages to forget or overlook that no one is being denied his liberty and no evidence is being brought in criminal proceedings based on what the NSA might learn through listening to al Qaeda communications. The wiretapping program is an intelligence operation, not a law-enforcement proceeding. Congress was duly informed, and not a single specific domestic abuse of such a wiretap has yet been even alleged, much less found.

As for the First Amendment, Judge Taylor asserts that the plaintiffs--a group that includes the ACLU and assorted academics, lawyers and journalists who believe their conversations may have been tapped but almost surely weren't--had their free-speech rights violated because al Qaeda types are now afraid to speak to them on the phone.

But the wiretapping program is not preventing anyone from speaking on the phone. Quite the opposite--if the terrorists stopped talking on the phone, there would be nothing to wiretap. Perhaps the plaintiffs should have sued the New York Times, as it was that paper's disclosure of the program that created the "chill" on "free speech" that Judge Taylor laments.

The real nub of this dispute is the Constitution's idea of "inherent powers," although those two pages of her decision are mostly devoted to pouring scorn on the very concept. But jurists of far greater distinction than Judge Taylor have recognized that the Constitution vests the bulk of war-making power with the President. It did so, as the Founders explained in the Federalist Papers, for reasons of energy, dispatch, secrecy and accountability.


Before yesterday, no American court had ever ruled that the President lacked the Constitutional right to conduct such wiretaps. President Carter signed the 1978 FISA statute that established the special court to approve domestic wiretaps even as his Administration declared it was not ceding any Constitutional power. And in the 2002 decision In Re: Sealed Case, the very panel of appellate judges that hears FISA appeals noted that in a previous FISA case (U.S. v. Truong), a federal "court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information." We couldn't find Judge Taylor's attempt to grapple with those precedents, perhaps because they'd have interfered with the lilt of her purple prose.

Unlike Judge Taylor, Presidents are accountable to the voters for their war-making decisions, as the current White House occupant has discovered. Judge Taylor can write her opinion and pose for the cameras--and no one can hold her accountable for any Americans who might die as a result. http://www.able2know.com/forums/posting.php?mode=reply&t=68502
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:06 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Of course, not everyone who voted for Bush is stupid. But many who voted for Bush were attracted to his simple, plain-spoken style because they are also simple and plain-spoken. Whereas most intelligent people listen to Bush fumble and f*ck-up speeches and it makes them think that he is stupid, the simple listen to the same speeches and it makes them feel smart.

Cycloptichorn


It sounds as if you agree with the author of that article that Democrats are smarter than Republicans. Hopefully Dean will pick up on this and run with it.


BTW, I'm having an interesting argument with Dookiestix on the "Ann Coulter Attacks 9/11 Widows" thread about the effects of speech on how a speaker is perceived. (Although I think Dookie has backed out of it by now.)
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:08 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
On another note, mostly because I don't have the time or inclination to start or track another thread, there is this (emphasis mine). If the wacko fringe of the Left keeps pulling stuff like this, we might as well deed over the USA to al Qaida now and start shopping for burkas and ordering our copy of the Qu'ran from Amazon.com


The thread you don't have the inclination to track is the "America... Spying on Americans II" thread.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 12:13 pm
okie wrote:
pachelbel wrote:
Oh for chrissakes I'm not going to do your homework for you like mommy. Look up my post #2212865 Wednesday Aug 16, 2006, 10:20 p.m. and it will answer your questions. It's a few pages back Rolling Eyes

You are the ignorant one, bernie ole man, if you don't know any of this information. You really have not heard of Prescott Bush? Which cave have you been living in? Wherever you've been, you have managed to stay astonishingly stupid! I suppose that's some kind of achievement.

I wish I did have a rowboat. It would be cheaper on gas. Sigh. One gets to like these big boats........yawn.......time for bed for me.

You're welcome to stay up and read my post that you should have read before you shot off your piehole.

Note: If you don't know how to do internet searches, ask your grandkids. Laughing you should have no problem finding info on any of Bush's illustrious relatives Cool


Pachelbel, the Prescott Bush story is old news, old plowed ground, the libs tried to get traction with that in one of the elections. It never went anywhere because it did not amount to a hill of beans, like virtually all the other scandals tried by the libs against Bush.



Just because 'it never went anywhere' doesn't mean a thing, does it. Lots of truths don't go anywhere in America simply because the 'free press' that you don't have is less willing to tell the truth because of their corporate sponsors who donate to the Repub. Party. Simple.

Explain why the info on the Bush family being involved with the Nazi's is in the National Archives and the Library of Congress? Are you telling me that these organizations accept lies? I hardly think so and I hardly think it was placed there by a liberal or Democrat.

You better tell ole Bernie that it's old news; he hasn't heard any of it in that cave of his. He has no idea who Prescott Bush is, and would like the information spoonfed to him, kinda like McGen.
Maybe someone else has the energy to enlighten the dork, I sure do not. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 01:44 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
On another note, mostly because I don't have the time or inclination to start or track another thread, there is this (emphasis mine). If the wacko fringe of the Left keeps pulling stuff like this, we might as well deed over the USA to al Qaida now and start shopping for burkas and ordering our copy of the Qu'ran from Amazon.com


The thread you don't have the inclination to track is the "America... Spying on Americans II" thread.


Well there is a reason I didn't have the inclination to track that thread. (I thought it was locked). But anyway, I just thought I'd throw the Prez a bit of support on this one because if the wacko Left is successful in preventing the President from obtaining necessary intelligence to defend our borders and our people, then the Constitution is out of business anyway.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 02:04 pm
It appears that the big lie du jure of the Republicans is that the Democrats are somehow hindering Bush from terrorism control. The Dems are merely asking that the constitution be followed regarding wiretaps; i.e., get a warrant.

I think a lot of people believed Bush when he said that he was a compassionate conservative. I have seen zero compassion in him or the people with whom he surrounded himself.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 02:11 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
On another note, mostly because I don't have the time or inclination to start or track another thread, there is this (emphasis mine). If the wacko fringe of the Left keeps pulling stuff like this, we might as well deed over the USA to al Qaida now and start shopping for burkas and ordering our copy of the Qu'ran from Amazon.com


The thread you don't have the inclination to track is the "America... Spying on Americans II" thread.


Well there is a reason I didn't have the inclination to track that thread. (I thought it was locked). But anyway, I just thought I'd throw the Prez a bit of support on this one because if the wacko Left is successful in preventing the President from obtaining necessary intelligence to defend our borders and our people, then the Constitution is out of business anyway.


You just don't get, Foxy or you're pulling a tico. Bush has all the power he needs to get any wiretap he wants. He just has to follow the law, like any other citizen.

It's amazing that you can call sensible people, Democrats and Republicans alike, who point that the administration is breaking the law, wackos.

The Republicans touted themselves as the law and order party. Oh, the irony!

Quote:


The same BS, repeated time and again but it's still a lie. There is nothing, absolutely nothing preventing them from finding out "why they're calling". People who 'herald the decision' are simply honest people who want to see their leader follow the rule of law.

What could possibly be more natural in a democracy?

The dishonesty that runs so deeply in folks who support this lawbreaker truly astonishes. People who support this lawbreaking don't really believe in democracy.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 02:19 pm
okie wrote:
The intelligent people finally learn how to say, "I voted for it before I voted against it." Bush is too stupid to learn how to do that.


Okie's coming around. Smile
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 02:20 pm
I get it very well.

This President has done nothing that any wartime President has not done. And when you're dealing with throwaway phones--guys with hundreds and hundreds of them in their possession were arrested just this last week--there is no time to get a warrant every time you wish to listen in on an international call.

Monitoring of communications from this country to another one should be legal at all times and certainly is necessary in wartime.

I get it. I frankly don't understand how so many on the Left do not.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 02:41 pm
Quote:
This President has done nothing that any wartime President has not done. And when you're dealing with throwaway phones--guys with hundreds and hundreds of them in their possession were arrested just this last week--there is no time to get a warrant every time you wish to listen in on an international call.


It's my understanding that you don't need a warrant if it is an emergency. But once you start listening you have to submit one in three days. Is that to inconvenient?

Quote:
Critics also accuse the White House of violating FISA. The secret court set up in 1978 was created expressly for this kind of covert surveillance, they say, and in its history, the court has rarely denied the executive branch a wiretapping warrant. It even allows federal agencies to request "after-the-fact" warrants for up to three days. "Congress was very clear about procedures to use for domestic surveillance," says Carl Tobias, a professor of law at the University of Richmond. Further, critics in Congress argue that AUMF, passed in the days after 9/11, does not explicitly authorize warrantless wiretapping on U.S.citizens.
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 03:31 pm
Okie, congratulations on some honesty and open-mindedness. I gather you see the immensity of Bush failures.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 04:02 pm
Okie, you better straighten out these lovable bozos pretty quick here. They are too st......., too........, um.........

Well, let's just say they didn't get your sarcasm. Smile
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 04:09 pm
Quote:
there is no time to get a warrant every time you wish to listen in on an international call.


You don't understand the situation at all if you believe bullcrap like this is why Bush isn't getting warrants.

You do realize that one of our intelligence agencies could:

1. Find out intel on a terrorist (who, according to you, will undoubtedly be 'middle-eastern looking')
2. Start tapping his phone immediately, and
3. Apply for the warrant to do so the next day, when they have more time.

Such warrants are legal under FISA. What the Administration wishes to do is to tap on who they wish, when they wish, without oversight. Because it basically comes down to a 'trust' game then, when there is no oversight.

I take it you want further presidents, Dem presidents, to have the same powers? To tap phones without oversight?

You should go read the America... spying on Americans thread, one and two.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 04:17 pm
I want all Presidents of what ever political party to have the power to do whatever is necessary to intercept international communications by whatever means - mail, phone, fax, e-mail, or carrier pigeon for the purpose of gathering intelligence to keep America safe. By the time a warrant was issued, no matter how quickly it was done, many of these phones will have already been discarded or destroyed. It is especially critical that the President have such powers in time of war.

Every President prior to now has had such powers. This current court ruling is unprecedented and should be quickly overturned in the appeal.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 04:29 pm
There's no need to slip into repeating talking points, Fox.

Quote:
I want all Presidents of what ever political party to have the power to do whatever is necessary to intercept international communications by whatever means - mail, phone, fax, e-mail, or carrier pigeon for the purpose of gathering intelligence to keep America safe.


They already do have that power.

Quote:
By the time a warrant was issued, no matter how quickly it was done, many of these phones will have already been discarded or destroyed.


Really? What evidence do you base this on? Where did you hear this? Because this is absolutely false.

Let us imagine that the FISA court, much like regular courts, responds to the need for urgency by the Gov't and issues a warrant in a day, maybe in the same day. The gov't has been listening all this time, because they are allowed to do so. The court approves the warrant, and all the information gathered from the moment the phone was tapped is perfectly usable and valid. The crook destroys the phone that night, and that's the end of the matter.

How does this limit anyone? Where can you provide evidence that the intelligence agencies cannot utilize the legal system we have in order to prosecute terrorists and criminals? How is this different from Bush's unlimited spying, from an intelligence-gathering issue? The answer is, there is no substantive difference.

Let us say that an over-eager agent of the FBI starts tapping Domestic-domestic calls. There is quite a bit of evidence that this has happened, btw. This is specifically illegal, but he sends the info up the pipe anyways. Who determines whether or not the Gov't has broken the law? Who oversees the program? Under Bush & the Neocon idea, noone does. The president is given a 'blank check' to determine whether or not he is breaking the law, and that is unacceptable under our governmental setup.

Quote:
It is especially critical that the President have such powers in time of war.


The 'war on terror' is metaphorical. It doesn't grant the Prez wartime powers.

Quote:
Every President prior to now has had such powers. This current court ruling is unprecedented and should be quickly overturned in the appeal.


No, they have not had such powers. Ever since FISA was passed in the late 70's, and signed into law by a President, the Executive Branch has been bound by the laws of the United States, which the President takes an Oath to defend and uphold. FISA is one of those laws and governs the Executive branch's ability to spy upon citizens of the USA, and to claim that the president isn't bound by it is ludicrous.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 04:53 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Okie, you better straighten out these lovable bozos pretty quick here. They are too st......., too........, um.........

Well, let's just say they didn't get your sarcasm. Smile


I guess they aren't smart enough to figure out simple sarcasm. Stuck on stupid pretty much summarizes it.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 05:27 pm
Another rightwing nut.

Quote:


VIDEO: Speeder says O'Reilly not noise, cop hell-bound donut eater

David Edwards
Published: Friday August 18, 2006

In this video, taken from a Tampa Bay police car, a man cited for speeding and breaking a noise ordinance insults police while praising conservative commentator Bill O'Reilly.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Twice_ticketed_motorist_OReilly_not_noise_0818.html



Even stupidity this profound is protected speech. He sounds an awful lot like some of the posters around here.
0 Replies
 
 

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