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Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 07:32 am
Anyone coming into a "Bush suppporters" thread purely for the purpose of posting material they hope is offensive to Bush supporters are themselves offensive. But, as my definition of trolling indicates, that is their intent and they revel in it.

Anyone coming into a "Bush supporters' thread to post a long anti-Bush/anti-adminisration/anti-America article unrelated to anything being discussed and who offers no discussion related to the article is spamming and they are offensive.

But as my posted definition indicates, that is their purpose and they do not care if they are seen as offensive.

But my scroll button works as well as Tico's. I don't read the stuff knowing that it is just more trolling and spam and scroll right on past.

Meanwhile, I hope those who sincerely take opposing views and contribute to the discussion will continue to participate as they do add constructive substance through their opposition and are appreciated.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 08:18 am
Getting back to earlier discussions, it appears that the MSM is going to give short shrift to the information coming out in the Saddam tapes and much of it is absolutely stunning. It will be up to talk radio, the few other conservative media sources that exists, and us bloggers to keep it out there until it has been acknowledged. Unless it is shown to be a hoax or otherwise unreliable, so far it has pretty well exhonerated the President (and the previous administration) on the 'lying about WMD' issues.

Also, on the surveillance 'scandal', recently somebody broke into a convenience store here in New Mexico and the only thing they took was I think 180 disposable cellular phones. (Not positive about the number but that will be close.) Now why would somebody JUST want disposable phones? I think this particular kind of incident is being repeated elsewhere.

The following I think is the whole heart of what the debate should be.

Jonathan Gurwitz
1978 surveillance act hinders 2006 security
Web Posted: 02/19/2006 12:00 AM CST
San Antonio Express-News

Where is the safest place in the world for Osama bin Laden to hide while continuing to direct the terrorist plots of al-Qaida? The United States.

If you think that's an exaggeration, consider what Gen. Michael Hayden, the former director of the National Security Agency, told the House Intelligence Committee in April 2000.

To illustrate the limitations imposed by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act ?- passed by Congress in 1978 ?- Hayden cited a Saudi terror leader whose name was then not widely known: "If ... Osama bin Laden is walking across the peace bridge from Niagara Falls, Ontario, to Niagara Falls, New York, as he gets to the New York side, he is an American person and my agency must respect his rights against unreasonable search and seizure."

Hayden's testimony about FISA six years ago proved to be lethally prescient. When FBI agents in Minneapolis arrested a French-born man of Moroccan descent named Zacarias Moussaoui during the summer of 2001, the Justice Department declined to issue a FISA warrant to search his computer files.

Moussaoui had come to the attention of U.S. law enforcement due to a tip from French intelligence about his connection to Islamic terrorists, and for the curious fact that he expressed an interest to a Minnesota flight school in learning only how to fly a commercial airliner, not how to take off or land.

In 1999, the NSA began monitoring a cell phone number in Yemen that served as a switchboard for al-Qaida. Among the callers who connected to this switchboard was a "Khalid" in the United States. The NSA dropped surveillance of the caller for fear of violating FISA provisions on domestic spying. Khalid turned out to be Khalid al-Mihdhar, one of the 9-11 hijackers who took over American Airlines Flight 77 and flew it into the Pentagon.

Traveling overseas ?- for instance, to a terrorist conclave in Malaysia in 2000 ?- al-Mihdhar and fellow hijacker Nawaf al-Hazmi were under CIA surveillance. Back in the United States, however, FBI lawyers were reluctant to initiate a criminal investigation due to concerns about breaching the FISA wall between domestic and foreign intelligence.

Here's what the 9-11 commission had to say about FISA:

"The 'wall' between criminal and intelligence investigations apparently caused agents to be less aggressive than they might otherwise have been in pursuing Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) surveillance powers in counterterrorism investigations.

"Moreover, the FISA approval process involved multiple levels of review, which also discouraged agents from using such surveillance. Many agents also told us that the process for getting FISA packages approved at FBI headquarters and the Department of Justice was incredibly lengthy and inefficient."

The institutional aversion to FISA warrants may have lessened, the wall separating domestic and foreign intelligence may have been lowered since the fall of 2001. But a law crafted 28 years ago ?- before disposable cellular phones became as ubiquitous as bubble gum at convenience stores, before masked e-mails from anonymizing Web portals could even be conceived ?- is insufficient to the task of protecting the nation against 21st-century terrorism.

"The revolution in telecommunications technology has extended the actual impact of the FISA regime far beyond what Congress could have anticipated in 1978," Hayden told the National Press Club last month. "And I don't think anyone can make the claim that the FISA statute is optimized to deal with or prevent a 9-11."

It may very well have been politically prudent and, less possibly, constitutionally necessary for President Bush to go to Congress five years ago to amend FISA and expedite the surveillance of communications between individuals in the United States and suspected or known foreign terrorists.

If the administration had done so, however, does anyone doubt that congressional media darlings would have made it headline news? And then, as now, does anyone believe the terrorists wouldn't be listening to what our lawmakers say about what our country is doing to thwart them?

SOURCE
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 08:19 am
Quote:
Cheney Advisor Won't Say If "A Beer" Is "Literally One Beer"
Today on Meet the Press, Tim Russert asked Cheney advisor Mary Matalin a reasonable question:

RUSSERT: Was alcohol in any way, shape or form consumed during the afternoon? And should we accept the [Vice] president's "a beer" as literally one beer?

Matalin didn't answer it:

MS. MATALIN: What Katharine Armstrong was answering is a literal fact going to the question she was asked, which is always the case on the Armstrong ranch, you don't drink and hunt, and you don't hunt with drinkers. And that's what the sheriff reported, that's what she reported. It is true that the vice president had a beer at lunch, and let me ask anybody sitting at this table who knows the vice president, has known him for many years, has seen him in social situations, he's known not to be a drinker. But let me ask you a more logical question?-you think the Secret Service would let the vice president out, tanked up, with a loaded gun, or let him be around anybody who's drunk with a loaded gun? It just defies common sense that the press would even go there. And that's why these adversarial question-and- answer periods set up the presumption that Cheney would be drunk, or having to deny that Cheney was drunk, as opposed to presuming what we all know, that he doesn't drink, he wouldn't hunt and drink, the Secret Service wouldn't let anybody around him who is drinking and hunting.

Instead of answering the question, Matlin appeals to the ego of Russert and the other panelists. If you are in the know, if you've hung out with Cheney, you would know to stop asking these questions.

What's puzzling is that Matalin insists its a "literal fact" that Cheney doesn't "drink and hunt" even though he has admitted to drinking before hunting. She also says that the press should have assumed that Cheney "doesn't drink" even though we know he had beer before and "a cocktail" immediately after the hunt.

The Vice President shot someone in the face, didn't talk to the police until the next morning and then blamed the person who got shot. The American people, who pay his salary, have the right to know exactly how much Cheney was drinking and if that amount of alcohol would interact with his medications.

UPDATE: Crooks and Liars has the video.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/02/19/literally-one-beer/

Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 08:34 am
Listen, Fox. They behave like children here (goes along with their psychotic political beliefs), after they've been asked kindly to stop spamming. So just repay them in kind in every thread they enjoy.

We should move our conversation to the Democrats whining thread everytime one of them posts here. We should actually move it there permanently.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 08:50 am
I admit to childish behavior on occasion, keeps a person young. However, if it is childish when I or someone else does it, would it not be childish when a person "repay them in kind in every thread they enjoy?"
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 08:58 am
No. It would be payback, which is a time-honored tradition among those of all ages.

The alternative is...what? letting you do it with no consequence?

Not in this lifetime.
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 09:17 am
why not be the bigger person and ignore 'em?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 09:23 am
If you say so, Lash <shrugs> So tell me where is this "democrats whining thread?" Maybe I'll see you there.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 09:26 am
Lash wrote:
Listen, Fox. They behave like children here (goes along with their psychotic political beliefs), after they've been asked kindly to stop spamming. So just repay them in kind in every thread they enjoy.

We should move our conversation to the Democrats whining thread everytime one of them posts here. We should actually move it there permanently.


Absolutely. The appropriate criterion is credible information/commentary, not whether it corresponds with one's set views.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 09:27 am
Lash wrote:
Listen, Fox. They behave like children here (goes along with their psychotic political beliefs), after they've been asked kindly to stop spamming. So just repay them in kind in every thread they enjoy.

We should move our conversation to the Democrats whining thread everytime one of them posts here. We should actually move it there permanently.


Yeah, but I want to be better than them. That sounds arrogant doesn't it. Sigh. It's a no win situation actually. But I won't stoop to their level since I know we do have something of substance to discuss on our thread(s).

If some of you guys didn't chime in over on their thread now and then though, it is obvious it would die on the vine. It only picks up activity when you show up. Smile
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 09:32 am
For something of substance sans "agenda" and in the interest of human understanding/compassion;
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=69623&highlight=
or, just continue to demonstrate how superior/inferior everyone is, continue in the same vein you're already in. Buncha pig-headed morons.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 09:43 am
Aside from dys' view...I could hardly agree with you guys less on this matter. I think it unhealthy, unrewarding and intellectually chickenshit to keep discourse only among those who agree with you/me. The reason is clear in the link below.

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/IraqMedia_Oct03/IraqMedia_Oct03_rpt.pdf

But as there is no longer a means here to separate off for private discussion, I'm going to let you guys have what you wish for.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 09:53 am
blatham wrote:
Aside from dys' view...I could hardly agree with you guys less on this matter. I think it unhealthy, unrewarding and intellectually chickenshit to keep discourse only among those who agree with you/me. The reason is clear in the link below.

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/IraqMedia_Oct03/IraqMedia_Oct03_rpt.pdf

But as there is no longer a means here to separate off for private discussion, I'm going to let you guys have what you wish for.


Thank you.

And thanks for the condescension ...
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 09:54 am
blatham wrote:

But as there is no longer a means here to separate off for private discussion, I'm going to let you guys have what you wish for.

This is why I withdrew my last post--in case anyone was wondering where it went.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 09:56 am
The level of discourse was high when we had the Roundtable. As I said in part, in the post I deleted, the absence of the "circle your wagons" feeling brought on by drive-by partisans can lead to deeper, more satisfying discussions inside the group.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 10:00 am
Do I detect civility here?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 10:05 am
Only those who don't read thoroughly could extrapolate a request for courtesy to be that 'no dissent' is wanted or appreciated. Especially when everybody has said that those participating in the discussion, even those who disagree, are both invited and welcomed. I can name at least half a dozen or more participants on this thread who are neither Bush supporters nor who support most of the policies he has set forth who fit that mold.

For that matter, I don't know a single Bush supporter who has posted on this thread who doesn't have at least one issue to take with the President.

It is those who spam the thread with unrelated and inappropriate materials and who make no effort to enter into any meaningful discussion that have been the problem.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 10:08 am
Bush sucks.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 10:08 am
We have a clean slate. Looking forward to seeing what develops.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 10:09 am
I feel as if we are really coming together.
0 Replies
 
 

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