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Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 09:45 am
I've not seen anybody on this thread object to opposing points of view. Opposing points of view have been both appreciated and welcomed.

You do understand the difference between that and personal insults, trolling, and spamming yes?

And you do understand the difference between reasonable and civil dissent and the kind of blogging to which the President referred? Okay, probably not. But there is a difference.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 09:46 am
An opposing point of view...

Quote:
Farewell to Ground Zero
by JONATHAN SCHELL

[from the March 6, 2006 issue]

This column will be my last "Letter From Ground Zero." The series will be succeeded by another, "Crisis of the Republic." Until recently it seemed possible to trace the main developments in the Bush Administration's policies back to that horrible, fantastical day in September 2001, as if following an unbroken chain of causes and effects. Now it no longer does. The chain is too entangled with other chains, of newer and older origin.

The war against Afghanistan, where Osama bin Laden had his headquarters and support from the ruling Taliban, was, for better or worse, a clear response to the attack on the United States. The Patriot Act and the reorganization of the national security apparatus likewise were responses to September 11. But with the launch of the Iraq War, the subject was already beginning to change. The political support for the war still flowed from 9/11, but the Administration was already veering toward other objectives. For one thing, we know that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and others had wanted to attack Iraq since their first days in office, and, for that matter, even before. For another, the war proved to be a kind of test case of a far more sweeping revolution in American foreign policy, soon outlined in the White House document of 2002, the National Security Strategy of the United States of America, which set forth American ambitions for nothing less than global hegemony based on military superiority, absolute and perpetual, over all other nations. Many friends of this policy frankly and rightly called it imperial.

The Iraq test case has failed; in doing so it has tied down forces that otherwise might have been given further aggressive missions. The imperial plan stalled, as the nuclearization of North Korea without an effective American response, among other things, attests. Nevertheless, the Administration's international ambitions had a scarcely less sweeping domestic corollary, for which no master strategic document was supplied: a profound transformation of the American state, in which, in the name of the "war on terror," the President rises above the law and the Republican Party permanently dominates all three branches of government. That project had even less to do with 9/11 than did the Iraq War. Its roots can be traced at least as far back as the election of 2000, when the Supreme Court improperly interjected itself into the electoral dispute in Florida and a majority consisting of Republican-appointed Justices awarded the presidency to the man of their own party. Or perhaps we need to look back even further, to the attempt by the Republican-dominated Congress to knock a Democratic President out of office by impeaching him for personal misbehavior accompanied by a minor legal infraction. (If those standards were still in force, President Bush would have been impeached eleven times over by now.) Obviously, these events had nothing to do with 9/11 or the Iraq War. Their roots are older and deeper. To arrange all the new developments, domestic and international, under the heading "Letter From Ground Zero," as if it all began with Osama bin Laden, would therefore be misleading. It would be a kind of lie.

For the series' new title, I want to acknowledge a debt to Hannah Arendt, who in 1972 published a book of essays titled Crises of the Republic. My single-letter change in her title reflects a belief that today the many disparate crises of the past have combined into one general systemic crisis, placing the basic structure of the Republic at mortal risk. At the forefront of concern must be the question: Will the Constitution of the United States survive? Is the American state now in the midst of a transmutation in which the 217-year-old provisions for a balance of powers and popular freedoms are being overridden and canceled? Or will defenders of the Constitution step forward, as has happened in constitutional crises of the past, to save the system and restore its integrity?

The obvious precedent is Watergate. Then as now, the presidency became "imperial." Then as now, a misconceived and misbegotten war led to presidential law-breaking at home. Then as now, a quixotic crusade for freedom abroad really menaced freedom at home. Then as now, the law-breaking President was re-elected to a second term. Then as now, the systemic rot went so deep that only a drastic cure could be effectual. Then as now, opposition at the outset consisted not of any great public outrage but the lonely courage of a few bureaucrats, legislators and reporters. Then it was the war in Vietnam; now it is the war in Iraq and the wider and more lasting "war on terror." Then it was secret break-ins and illegal wiretapping; now it is arbitrary imprisonment, torture and, again, illegal wiretapping. Then it was presidential assertion of "executive privilege"; now it is a full-scale reinterpretation of the Constitution to give the "unitary executive" power to do anything it likes in "wartime."

Of course, there are obvious differences. In the early 1970s, the opposition party controlled both houses of the legislature, which launched vigorous investigations and, eventually, impeachment proceedings. Now of course the President's party controls the legislative branch and possibly (it's still too early to say, given the traditional independence of the judiciary and its consequent unpredictability) the judicial branch as well. Then, the movement against the war had forced a decision to withdraw; now the antiwar movement is much weaker. On the other hand, when the crisis began back then, the President's popularity was high; now it is low.

Yet what remains most striking and most surprising is the degree of continuity of the systemic disorder in the face of radical, galloping change in almost every other area of political life. After all, the cold war, which seemed at the time to be the seedbed of the Watergate crisis, ended sixteen years ago, in the greatest upheaval of the international system since the end of World War II. How is it, then, that the United States has returned to a systemic crisis so profoundly similar to the one in the early 1970s? By looking at external foes, are we looking in the wrong place for the origins of the illness? Is this transformation what a more "conservative" public now wants? Or is there instead something in the dominant institutions of American life that push the country in this direction? Those are some of the questions that will be taken up in "Crisis of the Republic."

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20060306&s=schell
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 09:51 am
And above is a beautiful illustration of spam. Opposing view to what, Blatham?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 10:02 am
There are some very interesting observations in this George Will piece about the upcoming election in Ohio. The bolded portions are the ones that most caught my eye and that I found the most interesting.

This is just one more piece of evidence that the GOP has everything to gain and nothing to lose by returning to its conservative roots and being proud of them. And we need to start saying that and saying that and saying that until it gets through some thick skulls in Washington.

Sunday, February 19, 2006
February 19, 2006
The GOP's Harbinger
By George Will

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Maryland borders Pennsylvania, which borders Ohio, which borders Michigan. In that swath of America, extending 950 miles from the shores of the Chesapeake Bay to the shores of Lake Superior, this year's politics could produce a remarkable quartet of Republican victories -- black U.S. senators from Maryland (Michael Steele, who now is lieutenant governor) and Michigan (Keith Butler, a former Detroit city councilman, currently pastor of a suburban church with a congregation of 21,000), and black governors in Pennsylvania (Lynn Swann, the former Pittsburgh Steeler) and Ohio (Ken Blackwell, currently secretary of state).

Blackwell is particularly noteworthy because he has had the most varied political career -- a city councilman at 29, mayor at 31, national chairman of Steve Forbes' 2000 presidential campaign. And because he is the most conservative.

Polls suggest that Blackwell, 57, can win the Republican primary May 2. National party leaders think that only he can keep the governorship Republican, because the state GOP establishment has been hostile to him, and Ohio voters are now robustly hostile to it.

He annoys the establishment because he, unlike it, believes things. He believes that the establishment is proof of a conservative axiom: Any political group or institution that is not ideologically conservative will become, over time, liberal. That is so because, in the absence of a principled adherence to limited government, careerism -- the political idea of the unthoughtful -- will cause incumbents to use public spending to purchase job security.

In 1998, party elders pressured Blackwell into stepping aside to clear the path to the governorship for Bob Taft -- great-great-grandson of a U.S. attorney general, great-grandson of a president, grandson and son of U.S. senators. Today, Taft's job approval has plunged to 18 percent among Republican voters. The rest of the electorate is more hostile. Republicans hold 12 of 18 U.S. House seats and both Senate seats. Unfortunately for Ohio Republicans, they also control both elected branches of the state government and their record of scandals and un-Republican governance -- substantial tax and spending increases -- have Blackwell, a 6-foot-5, 255-pound former college football player (Xavier University in Cincinnati), running against his party's record.

Ohio's state and local tax burden, which was among the nation's lowest in the 1970s, is now the nation's seventh heaviest ($3,906 per capita). Blackwell blames taxes, lawsuit abuse and regulatory confusion for Ohio's ranking 47th in job creation, with a rate last year less than one-seventh of the national rate. Since January 1999, the beginning of the Taft years, Ohio has lost 210,000 manufacturing jobs. ``We have become," Blackwell says, ``one of the leading re-populators of other states." One in particular: He says that every 24 hours 65 Ohioans become Floridians.

He appeals to small-government conservatives by proposing a constitutional cap on state spending, and even leasing the Ohio Turnpike to private investors. His cultural conservatism has won him such intense support from many church leaders, some liberals are contemplating recourse to an American sacrament -- a lawsuit. It would threaten the tax-exempt status of churches deemed too supportive of Blackwell.

He appeals to blacks by being black, and because many blacks are cultural conservatives: George W. Bush won 16 percent of Ohio's black vote in 2004. In Blackwell's three statewide races, he has received between 30 percent and 40 percent of the black vote. If in November he duplicates that, he will win, and Democrats in many blue states will blanch because if their share of the black vote falls to 75 percent, their states could turn red.


His opponent, Congressman Ted Strickland, is evidence that Democrats have been educated by electoral disappointments. Strickland represents a culturally conservative district that extends from the Ohio River almost to Youngstown, a district Bush carried by just two points in 2000 and 2004. The son -- one of nine children -- of a steelworker, Strickland is reliably liberal on most matters but also has the NRA's A rating and voted to ban partial-birth abortions.

Control of the U.S Senate in 2007 could turn on whether Mike DeWine, a second-term Republican, is re-elected. He does not thrill conservatives, so he needs Blackwell on the ballot to arouse the party's base. Furthermore, the next presidential election, like the previous one, might turn on a close contest for Ohio's 20 electoral votes, a contest in which the governor, whoever he is, might make the difference. Which is why Ohio's gubernatorial election may be the most consequential this year.

© 2006, Washington Post Writers Group

SOURCE
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 10:24 am
Quote:
Many (perhaps most) people, labelled "trolls", are simply being called thus by someone else in the course of a religious, political or other ordinary type of dispute; in other words, they are labelled as one for acting as a dissident or heretic. To characterize systems administrators or moderators as "the troll who got there first" is not entirely inaccurate. Many debates, between those with and without administrative or legal powers, seem simply to resemble a heated, personal, argument. On the Internet in particular, the holding of technological powers (such as the power to ban users or block IP addresses) is not necessarily a sign of any superior political or moral judgement. Similarly, one may be labeled a troll for simply disagreeing with someone(often the topic starter).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#Alternative_views
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 10:30 am
Well Wikipedia's definition disagrees with just about everybody else's unless you just plucked out one paragraph that suited you, Revel.

Here's the definition that reflects what most people refer to when they refer to trolls:

http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 10:34 am
Actually I have used Wikipedia quite a bit and find it very useful and that paragraph does make a lot of sense if looked at objectively. However, I think the subject has been exhausted.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 10:35 am
I would bet a Reuben sandwich that the paragraph you posted was written by a troll, Revel. Smile

(You do know that many articles in Wikipedia are written by anybody using the internet that wants to write them? Some are quite informed; some not. And yes, Wikipedia does offer a lot of information, some reliable, some not, and it is prudent to cross reference Wikipedia with other sources before assuming it is absolute fact.)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 10:42 am
foxfyre inquired
Quote:
Opposing view to what, Blatham?


An opposing view to many of those which you, or tico or JW or others post here.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 10:44 am
Here is another...

Quote:
Rumsfeld's Pet Tyrants
Tom Porteous
February 17, 2006


Tom Porteous is a freelance writer and analyst who was formerly with BBC and served as conflict management adviser for Africa with the British Foreign Office.

When it comes to "the war on terror," North African governments can teach even U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld a thing or two. And Rumsfeld seems to have been in a mood to listen on his sweep through Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco earlier this week. "Each country has been, in its way, providing moderate leadership and been constructive in...the struggle against violent extremism," he said at the outset of his trip. "It's something we value and want to strengthen."

But a closer look at how North African regimes have dealt with Islamic fundamentalism gives pause for thought. Long before the Al Qaeda attacks of 9/11 alerted the Bush administration to the political advantages of declaring a global war on terrorism, North African governments had discovered that they could use the struggle against terrorism and Islamic extremism as a pretext to justify cancelling elections, neutering opposition, locking up political opponents, closing down political debate, and securing Western economic and military assistance.

The U.S. declaration of a global war on terror in the aftermath of 9/11 has merely underwritten and lent international legitimacy to this well-tested strategy by which undemocratic and repressive regimes have stayed in power and secured their interests.

Since the late 1980s, citing the threat of terrorism, Tunisia has tolerated no political dissent or freedom of expression whatsoever, whether from the Islamist opposition or any other quarter. President Zine Al Abidine Ben Ali, the former army intelligence chief who seized power in 1987 in a nonviolent coup, has imposed a deal on Tunisian society. It goes like this: Don't get involved in opposition politics and I will ensure political and economic stability for all.
full article
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 10:47 am
And a third...

Quote:
Invisible Men
The not-people we're not holding at Guantanamo Bay.
By Dahlia Lithwick
Posted Thursday, Feb. 16, 2006, at 3:22 PM ET

Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay

It's an immutable rule of journalism that when you unearth three instances of a phenomenon, you've got a story. So, you might think three major reports on Guantanamo Bay, all released within a span of two weeks, might constitute a big story. But somehow they do not.

Guantanamo Bay currently holds over 400 prisoners. The Bush administration has repeatedly described these men as "the worst of the worst." Ten have been formally charged with crimes and will someday face military tribunals. The rest wait to learn what they have done wrong. Two major studies conclude that most of them have done very little wrong. A third says they are being tortured while they wait.

No one disputes that the real criminals at Guantanamo should be brought to justice. But now we have proof that most of the prisoners are guilty only of bad luck and that we are casually destroying their lives.
full article
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 10:54 am
mysteryman wrote:
Anon-Voter wrote:
Maggie,

Yea ... Good old NaziBuzz, I remember it well! MM is a moderator there which says it all!!

Anon


Your right,I am.
And nobody there laughs when Americans get killed,nobody there actively hopes for American deaths,nobody there wants to see as many US deaths as is possible.

Mags,you didnt quit,you were banned,remember.
For what its worth,I tried to get Kevin to let you stay,but I was overruled.


The American Military are the new Hessians. Hired troops by those who would use them. Kuwait, The American Corporations, but they are by no means fighting for American Freedom. You can't change the realties MM, no matter how much you want to muck it up with Mom, Apple Pie, The Flag, and Patriotism. They're a hired army, paid for those than can afford them!! They go kill those that they are paid to go kill. They know the risks, and they make their own decisions. If they get killed in the process, that just part of the business of war!

Now you be sure to link this so you can post it all over the Internet, because I would hate to have you have to look for it again, or lose track of it like you did my last answer to you.

Anon
0 Replies
 
Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 02:14 pm
Anon-Voter wrote:
Maggie,

Yea ... Good old NaziBuzz, I remember it well! MM is a moderator there which says it all!!

Anon


Lying is what they do best next to editing & censoring. I'm glad I told Kevin to remove my name from that forum. I understand that it's as bad as ever, maybe more so.

Too Bad. Kevin has always seemed like a nice person. I don't know why he allows such scum to ruin his site.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 02:22 pm
Magginkat wrote:
Anon-Voter wrote:
Maggie,

Yea ... Good old NaziBuzz, I remember it well! MM is a moderator there which says it all!!

Anon


Lying is what they do best next to editing & censoring. I'm glad I told Kevin to remove my name from that forum. I understand that it's as bad as ever, maybe more so.

Too Bad. Kevin has always seemed like a nice person. I don't know why he allows such scum to ruin his site.


I called it ... from the very beginning!

Anon
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 02:40 pm
Compassionate Corporatism

Quote:
through arcane regulatory actions and legal opinions, the Bush administration is providing industries with an unprecedented degree of protection at the expense of an individual's right to sue and a state's right to regulate.
full article
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 02:51 pm
Quote:
Report: Pentagon Warned on Torture, Abuse

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: February 19, 2006
Filed at 2:50 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Navy's former general counsel warned Pentagon officials two years before the Abu Ghraib prison scandal that circumventing international agreements on torture and detainees' treatment would invite abuse, according to a published report.

Legal theories granting the president the right to authorize abuse in spite of the Geneva conventions were unlawful, dangerous and erroneous, Alberto J. Mora advised officials in a secret memo. The 22-page document was obtained by The New Yorker for a story in its Feb. 27 issue.

A Pentagon spokeswoman said Sunday she had not read the magazine story.

The memo from July 7, 2004, recounted Mora's 2 1/2-year effort to halt a policy that he feared would authorize cruelty toward suspected terrorists.

It document also indicates that some lawyers in the Justice and Defense departments objected to the legal course the administration undertook, according to the report.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Pentagon-Abuse.html
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 05:49 pm
blatham wrote:
foxfyre inquired
Quote:
Opposing view to what, Blatham?


An opposing view to many of those which you, or tico or JW or others post here.


It's spam, blatham ....




scrollin', scrollin', scrollin',
blatham is a postin',
so keep those wheels a scrollin', scroll on!
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 06:08 pm
By all means. No sense suffering the anxiety of cognitive dissonance, tico. Keep that little noggin happy.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 06:33 pm
blatham wrote:
By all means. No sense suffering the anxiety of cognitive dissonance, tico. Keep that little noggin happy.


Nonsense, blatham. We've covered this ground before.

You've been asked nicely, but you choose to be obtrusive.
0 Replies
 
Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 09:59 pm
Blatham, I think that the rule Tico is trying to make is that if you post it, it's spam. If he posts it, it's a reasonable response.

Take a look at how the pork has grown with the republican control of Congress.... AND check especially how it's grown since king george has been in office.

From Chris Edwards' new book, Downsizing the Federal Government (which cited CAGW):

Number of Pork Projects in Federal Spending Bills

2005 - 13,997
2004 - 10,656
2003 - 9,362
2002 - 8,341
2001 - 6,333
2000 - 4,326
1999 - 2,838
1998 - 2100
1997 - 1,596
1996 - 958
1995 - 1439

Now that's an aftermath!
0 Replies
 
 

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