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Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 12:07 am
JustWonders wrote:
Anon Voter wrote:
JW forgets in 2000 that we had managed most of that ... before Bush took over!!


This wasn't about what happened in 2000 or 1998 or any time in the past. We were discussing the Democrats lack of credibility on national security and the effect of that on future elections. It would be in their best interests to come up with answers to my questions if they are serious about having a leadership role in this country.


The point is that you had those things, and then you elected and support the very person who took them away from you. Now you want us to do what we had already done! We had repaired the financial, economic, and political damage done by the first Bush, and then you elected another one. We had a peacetime economy, now the Fascists have converted it back to a wartime economy. You people have bought a disaster, and this time I don't think we can save you again. Now, I'm not sure I have it in me to give a **** anymore. I think you and yours have sodomized this country beyond salvation. If I can get JayBea well enough to move, we will be blowing this popstand and leave you to your fate!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 03:07 am
JustWonders wrote:
There's been a long tradition in this country (not a rule, just a tradition) that former presidents refrain from criticism of current presidents. Both Clinton and Carter have ignored that tradition on several occasions for political gain.

So did Ronald Reagan. I specifically remember one Op-Ed in the International Herald Tribune in which he passionately disagreed with the tax increases Clinton proposed. I also remember Richard Nixon's column in Time Magazine (or was it Newsweek?). He freely attacked national leaders from all over the world: Domestic or foreign, liberal or conservative. I see nothing wrong with such criticism, no matter which side does it. After all, they're ex-presidents, not mummies.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 07:28 am
Lash wrote:
blatham wrote:
And you, or fox, represent what exactly? Objective and inclusive bigitude?


I don't hate the opposition, nor are my views reliably one-sided, as are yours and Poobah's.

So...you: very bad.

Me: marginally bad.

This means: I win. Very Happy


I acknowledge defeat. Please expect this afternoon, by UPS, my first-born male child. Do with him as you will. He's now yours.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 07:28 am
Quote:
If I can get JayBea well enough to move, we will be blowing this popstand and leave you to your fate!!

Anon


Bye!!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 08:13 am
John McCain on a recent Hannity & Colmes
Quote:
MCCAIN: There was an unwritten custom which was honored by Eisenhower, Truman, you name them, that you kept your mouth shut about the conduct, particularly of national security affairs, by the people that succeeded you. That is obviously not honored by either former President Carter or former President Clinton.


While I do not dispute Thomas's recollection that Reagan or Nixon may have criticized a domestic policy--domestic policy is quite different than challenging a successor on sensitive international policy--I do question whether these former presidents did more than show how the current policy deviated from their own.

Doing a quick cursory search on the customary protocol on this subject, I ran across this article that yielded some interesting things on what a former president says about his successor vs what the former president did:

November 03, 2003, 8:12 a.m.
Breaking All the Rules
By Paul Kengor & Cory L. Shreckengost

There is a time-honored tradition in American politics ?- a gentlemen's agreement of sorts: Former presidents do not openly criticize current presidents, particularly on sensitive foreign-policy matters. Ex-presidents know intimately the difficulty of the job; they understand how much more burdensome the job can become when a former president publicly attacks a current president's performance. Eisenhower, for example, held back his anger at John F. Kennedy's handling of the Bay of Pigs invasion until the two met privately. George H. W. Bush did all he could to refrain from rebuking Bill Clinton during the tawdry 1990s.

Perhaps predictably, Bill Clinton ?- who has such little regard for propriety ?- has trashed this presidential tradition. At a time when the sitting president is practically begging for fair coverage of Iraq's reconstruction and the war on terror generally, Bill Clinton has stepped to the cameras to question George W. Bush's very understanding of the world's present dangers.

In remarks made during a luncheon sponsored by the History Channel, Bill Clinton took a stab at his successor, claiming that, before Bush took office, he warned the incoming president about the threat posed by Osama bin Laden.

Reuters reported the former president as saying, "In his campaign, Bush had said he thought the biggest security issue was Iraq and a national missile defense. I told him that in my opinion, the biggest security problem was Osama bin Laden." Clinton went on to list what he claimed were his presidential priorities: "I would have started with India and Pakistan, then North Korea, and then Iraq after that." He said that he "thought Iraq was a lower order problem than al Qaeda."

There is no way to know exactly what Clinton said to Bush behind closed doors. Fortunately, Clinton's remarks on security issues throughout his term are a matter of public record. We can thus glimpse into the days of yore and see how well Clinton's past statements match his supposed priorities. Such comparison is a kind of historical polygraph.

Enter the Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents. This is the official public collection of all presidential papers ?- every speech, statement, interview, appointment, message to Congress, press conference, and so on. By employing relevant key-word searches ?- the record from the Clinton years is available online ?- we can gain perspective on Clinton's true national-security purview.

Admittedly, this is not a flawless research design. For instance, if a search on the word "Saddam" reveals 200 hits, this does not guarantee that the president uttered the word "Saddam" 200 times. Some of those references to Saddam may appear in the title or tagline of a speech or statement. Of course, when comparing the number of times a president mentioned certain names ?- such as, say, "Saddam" and "Osama" ?- this limitation applies to both names, and any errors usually even out.

On the other hand, each keyword "hit" tallied by the search engine refers only to a single document containing the word. In actuality, the word may be stated dozens of times within each document. Therefore, 200 document hits on "Saddam" (for example) may fall well below the total number of times a president mentioned Saddam Hussein.

At any rate, the total number of hits can be fairly effective in signaling how much a president and his administration focused on a particular person or subject; it can reflect priorities quite effectively.

We performed several searches on the Clinton presidency, and the results are very interesting. Only 23 of his statements during his eight-year presidency mention bin Laden ?- despite the fact that the 1993 bin Laden-backed bombing of the World Trade Center took place during Clinton's first year in office. Even more startling is the fact that al Qaeda was mentioned in only six documents. (Our search included all spelling variants of the terrorist organization's name.)

What about the states that Clinton mentioned? India was mentioned by Clinton in 342 documents and Pakistan in 252. Next on his security-threats-to-neutralize list was North Korea, which produced 299 hits. And rounding out the bottom of Clinton's to-do list was Iraq. Ironically, Clinton singled out Iraq in 490 separate presidential statements ?- usually with more than one mention of Iraq in each statement. The name "Saddam Hussein" showed up 190 times. So Saddam Hussein's Iraq was mentioned 680 times in total, compared with 29 times for Osama's al Qaeda.

Our probe into the presidential archives didn't end there. Democrats who claim that Bush exaggerated the threat posed by Saddam's pursuit of "weapons of mass destruction" will be interested to know that the term "weapons of mass destruction" turned up 533 times among Bill Clinton's Iraq documents.

All of this evidence suggests that when Clinton recently offered his supposed list of priorities to Bush, he had them reversed. If a president's priorities are reflected in his public words, then Clinton quite arguably considered Saddam's Iraq a bigger priority than Osama's al Qaeda.

To put it baldly, Osama wasn't even on Clinton's radar screen. Interestingly, even a former White House intern's name eclipsed bin Laden's: A search on "Lewinsky" garnered 25 hits.

To put this data in perspective, consider that, on average, Clinton statements mentioning bin Laden occurred once every 127 days, whereas Iraq popped up every 6 days of his presidency, and those elusive "weapons of mass destruction" appeared every 5.5 days.

Either Clinton's claim to have warned Bush about bin Laden is a shameless component Clinton's ongoing campaign to remove the stain from his tarnished legacy, or it is political propaganda designed to harm George W. Bush. Whatever the motivation, Bill Clinton has again misrepresented reality. And once again, whether through the modern miracle of DNA testing or the present-day sophistication of a computer search engine, technology has checked him.

?- Paul Kengor, a professor of political science at Grove City College and a visiting fellow with the Hoover Institution, is the author of the forthcoming book God and Ronald Reagan. Cory Shreckengost is a policy analyst at the Shenango Institute for Public Policy and an associated scholar with the Susquehanna Valley Center for Public Policy.
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 08:26 am
I see that Bush is now bragging about thwarting a plot to blow up a building in Los Angeles. A building he called "The Liberty Building", but which is actually the Library Building.

And this was four years ago.

Seems like he's reaching pretty deep into his desperation bag, groping around for something to scare the people.

All I can do is laugh at the clown whenever he opens his mouth.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 08:28 am
Would you have preferred that the building was blown up, Gus?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 08:30 am
Thomas wrote:
JustWonders wrote:
There's been a long tradition in this country (not a rule, just a tradition) that former presidents refrain from criticism of current presidents. Both Clinton and Carter have ignored that tradition on several occasions for political gain.

So did Ronald Reagan. I specifically remember one Op-Ed in the International Herald Tribune in which he passionately disagreed with the tax increases Clinton proposed. I also remember Richard Nixon's column in Time Magazine (or was it Newsweek?). He freely attacked national leaders from all over the world: Domestic or foreign, liberal or conservative. I see nothing wrong with such criticism, no matter which side does it. After all, they're ex-presidents, not mummies.


Yes. It's a very interesting question. Clearly there is something of an unspoken tradition that past Presidents limit their criticisms of sitting Presidents but it isn't absolute and shouldn't be.

I think past Presidents, personally understanding the enormous challenges of holding the post and understanding that a sitting President likely already has critics enough, wish to give the belabored fellow now on the hotseat something of a break. They've been there, and familiarity always breeds empathy. We see this elsewhere too...predictably, the last person to criticize a school principal will be another school principal, etc.

On the other hand, that same familiarity allows a past President a uniquely educated vantage on the policies and statements of a sitting administration. And if some new policy or claim is advanced which the past President perceives, from his uniquely advantaged position, to be seriously dangerous to the country's best interests, how could one not speak up?

As it happens, I saw Carter in an interview early in the week. He voiced a concern which I've been yelling about for three years here. That is, that no one in this administration has spoken to the issue of...will the US military presence in Iraq EVER end? He said he believes it quite possible that a permanent military presence in Iraq may have been a/the fundamental (if covert) reason the war was initiated. And of course, there are a lot of good reasons to think that might be exactly the case. Frighteningly, there are also a lot of good reasons to think that the necessary steps to get from war initiation to that end (eg, manipulating Iraqi elections and "democracy" such that the US cannot be asked/forced to leave) are precisely the sorts of acts and intentions which the Muslim world suspects sit behind this project.

One question that sits in my mind on all this is whether the strategists and think tank boys associated with this administration and the new conservative movement became so enamored with, and confident from, their successes in manipulating public opinion in the US over the last two decades that they thought they could just move their whole package of PR tricks out of Texas and the US and out into the world (including the Muslim world..."they'll greet us with flowers") and keep on winning? And the Suskind piece relates again here, as in so much this administration does...

Quote:
In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/sloth/2004-10-16b.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 08:40 am
From a few sentences into foxfyre's paste
Quote:
Perhaps predictably, Bill Clinton ?- who has such little regard for propriety


Bound to be a good objective analysis of the question and issues, we can tell right off the bat.

And just what is it with you guys and your nervous craving for "propriety"? I'm going to check with Craven and Jes and see if they can do a tally of just who in our community is actually pressing that "Fart Button" up above.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 08:44 am
gustavratzenhofer wrote:
I see that Bush is now bragging about thwarting a plot to blow up a building in Los Angeles. A building he called "The Liberty Building", but which is actually the Library Building.

And this was four years ago.

Seems like he's reaching pretty deep into his desperation bag, groping around for something to scare the people.

All I can do is laugh at the clown whenever he opens his mouth.


Brian: You are all individuals.

Crowd: (in unison) We are all individuals

Voice: I'm not.

What the hell is is that gets these folks so enamored of being manipulated, and so transparently? Do they feel more comforted with the concept that Bush is a loving daddy who will protect them?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 08:46 am
Typical I think of some to focus on the semantics rather than the content and take it out of context too.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 09:17 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Typical I think of some to focus on the semantics rather than the content and take it out of context too.


Well, at least to this reader, your sentence isn't comprehensible. In any case, let's put Bush's revelation of how wonderful he is at protecting America into context.

Context:
- low and dwindling polls on trust in President and his honesty
- present time political damage from NSA domestic spying
- history of Bush folks turning on the "danger!!" meme when polls down or when scandalous facts emerge

Content:
Quote:
"It didn't go," said one U.S. official familiar with the operational aspects of the war on terrorism. "It didn't happen."

The official said he believed the Library Tower plot was one of many Al Qaeda operations that had not gone much past the conceptual stage. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity, saying that those familiar with the plot feared political retaliation for providing a different characterization of the plan than that of the president.
link
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 09:28 am
This is big. It's important. And watch now today as the knives come out to get this guy...

Quote:
Ex-CIA Official Faults Use of Data on Iraq
Intelligence 'Misused' to Justify War, He Says

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, February 10, 2006; Page A01

The former CIA official who coordinated U.S. intelligence on the Middle East until last year has accused the Bush administration of "cherry-picking" intelligence on Iraq to justify a decision it had already reached to go to war, and of ignoring warnings that the country could easily fall into violence and chaos after an invasion to overthrow Saddam Hussein.

Paul R. Pillar, who was the national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia from 2000 to 2005, acknowledges the U.S. intelligence agencies' mistakes in concluding that Hussein's government possessed weapons of mass destruction. But he said those misjudgments did not drive the administration's decision to invade.

Paul R. Pillar, who was the national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia from 2000 to 2005, says warnings on Iraq were ignored. (By Dennis Cook -- Associated Press)


"Official intelligence on Iraqi weapons programs was flawed, but even with its flaws, it was not what led to the war," Pillar wrote in the upcoming issue of the journal Foreign Affairs. Instead, he asserted, the administration "went to war without requesting -- and evidently without being influenced by -- any strategic-level intelligence assessments on any aspect of Iraq."

"It has become clear that official intelligence was not relied on in making even the most significant national security decisions, that intelligence was misused publicly to justify decisions already made, that damaging ill will developed between [Bush] policymakers and intelligence officers, and that the intelligence community's own work was politicized," Pillar wrote.
link
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 09:41 am
nimh wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Yes, there's the difference. There, the few families complaining (and what exactly was their complaint?) were trying to make a political point by their complaining.

As opposed to the politicians - and the politicians who are on the opposite side of the spectrum from the deceased, at that - who are complaining now, I assume.

Phooey to the "few families" of 9/11 widows who dared make a political point when it came to the political use of references and images of their own dead, loved ones.

No, the complaints of the politicians, hacks, rightwing columnists and Republican bloggers who are complaining now are obviously of higher moral calibre - their take would of course be pure of political point scoring, in comparison to those shameless 9/11 widows.

Shocked


And Momma Sheehan is using her son's death for political purposes, but you don't have a problem with that because it's her son.

But all of that is outside the particular concern raised, which is that of using the occasion of a funeral to take jabs at a political opponent.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 09:41 am
JustWonders wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
Take a month. Quit reading and watching your present sources. I'll provide you with a modest list of things to read each day (good quality). That would help with the "enlighten" thing.


Anyone want to bet NYT is near the top of the list? :wink:


NYT Book Review :wink:

<Betcha>


That's the "New York Review of Books" ... and no, I won't take that bet. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 09:42 am
Pillar piece in Foreign Affairs...

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060301faessay85202/paul-r-pillar/intelligence-policy-and-the-war-in-iraq.html
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 09:45 am
blatham wrote:
This is big. It's important. And watch now today as the knives come out to get this guy...

Quote:
Ex-CIA Official Faults Use of Data on Iraq
Intelligence 'Misused' to Justify War, He Says

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, February 10, 2006; Page A01

The former CIA official who coordinated U.S. intelligence on the Middle East until last year has accused the Bush administration of "cherry-picking" intelligence on Iraq to justify a decision it had already reached to go to war, and of ignoring warnings that the country could easily fall into violence and chaos after an invasion to overthrow Saddam Hussein.

Paul R. Pillar, who was the national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia from 2000 to 2005, acknowledges the U.S. intelligence agencies' mistakes in concluding that Hussein's government possessed weapons of mass destruction. But he said those misjudgments did not drive the administration's decision to invade.

Paul R. Pillar, who was the national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia from 2000 to 2005, says warnings on Iraq were ignored. (By Dennis Cook -- Associated Press)


"Official intelligence on Iraqi weapons programs was flawed, but even with its flaws, it was not what led to the war," Pillar wrote in the upcoming issue of the journal Foreign Affairs. Instead, he asserted, the administration "went to war without requesting -- and evidently without being influenced by -- any strategic-level intelligence assessments on any aspect of Iraq."

"It has become clear that official intelligence was not relied on in making even the most significant national security decisions, that intelligence was misused publicly to justify decisions already made, that damaging ill will developed between [Bush] policymakers and intelligence officers, and that the intelligence community's own work was politicized," Pillar wrote.
link


And you don't see any possibility that this is self-serving? And you still are not going to comment on the statistical data from the piece I posted that the Bush administration was no more fixated on Iraq or the weapons of mass destruction than was the prior administration? Or on ALL the data available to members of Congress who were blustering about taking out Saddam?

How tunnel visioned does one have to be to conclude that Bush, after 9/11, would need to 'cherry pick' anything to justify a war on terrorism and that Iraq was a logical piece of that?
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 09:51 am
Blatham,

That gives additional support to the fact that Bushie was looking for a reason, any reason, to attack Iraq. It also shows that yet again. he was repeatedly warned that is was going to be a f*ckup of of gigantic proportions.

Of course, Pillar will be portrayed as just another rogue employee that had to be removed from office that now will say anything to hurt the Shrub ... just like all the others that have ratted out the Schmuck!

I can't wait for the herd to respond to this one!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 09:52 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Would you have preferred that the building was blown up, Gus?

That's really a bizarre statement/question. But yes of course all liberals and democrats really look forward to death and destruciton.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2006 09:53 am
dyslexia wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Would you have preferred that the building was blown up, Gus?

That's really a bizarre statement/question. But yes of course all liberals and democrats really look forward to death and destruciton.


not all of them,just one.
Right anon?
0 Replies
 
 

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