3
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 06:20 am
If my grandmother had a rocket in her bum, she could fly to the moon.

Quote:
Asked point-blank whether the United States is winning in Iraq, Abizaid replied: "Given unlimited time and unlimited support, we're winning the war."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/19/AR2006091900459.html

(with nod to Tim Grieve)
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 07:00 am
September of 2002, Secretary Rumsfeld said:

'We have what we consider to be credible evidence that Al Qaeda's leaders have sought contacts in Iraq who would help them acquire weapons of mass destruction capabilities.'


Undeclared Civil War In Iraq - 2006

These killings have created a climate of fear, fuelled by the fact that no one is being held responsible. What is worse, no one appears to be capable, or more importantly, willing to stop the murders from escalating into an all out civil war.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/26/eveningnews/main886305.shtml
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 07:06 am
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinion/ssi/images/Toles/c_09212006_520.gif
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 07:27 am
The torture battle royal

The public violation of the Geneva convention has created a schism between the president and military

Sidney Blumenthal
Thursday September 21, 2006
The Guardian


President Bush's torture policy has provoked perhaps the greatest schism between a president and the military in American history. From the outside, this battle royal over his abrogation of the Geneva conventions appears as a shadow war. But since the supreme court's ruling in Hamdan v Rumsfeld in June, deciding that Bush's kangaroo court commissions for detainees "violate both the UCMJ [Uniform Code of Military Justice] and the four Geneva conventions", the struggle has been forced into the open.

On September 6 Bush made his case for torture, offering as validity the interrogation under what he called an "alternative set of procedures" of an al-Qaida operative named Abu Zubaydah. Bush claimed he was a "senior terrorist leader" who "ran a terrorist camp" and had provided accurate information about planned terrorist attacks. In fact, Zubaydah was an al-Qaida travel agent (literally a travel agent), who, under torture, spun wild scenarios of terrorism that proved bogus. Zubaydah, it turns out, is a psychotic with the intelligence of a child. "This guy is insane, certifiable," said Dan Coleman, an FBI agent assigned to the al-Qaida taskforce.

Bush's argument for torture is partly based on the unstated premise that the more sadism, the more intelligence. While he referenced Zubaydah, he did not mention Jamal Ahmed al-Fadl, described by the FBI, according to the New Yorker, as "arguably the US's most valuable informant on al-Qaida", who is wined, dined and housed by the federal witness protection programme.

On September 15 the Senate armed services committee approved a bill affirming the Geneva conventions, sponsored by three Republicans with military backgrounds - John Warner, John McCain and Lindsey Graham. The former secretary of state Colin Powell, Bush's "good soldier," released a letter denouncing Bush's version. "The world," he wrote, "is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism," and Bush's bill "would add to those doubts". That sentiment was underlined in another letter signed by 29 retired generals and CIA officials. General John Batiste, former commander of the 1st army division in Iraq, appeared on CNN to scourge the administration's policy as "unlawful", "wrong", and responsible for Abu Ghraib.

Before the committee vote, Bush's administration had tried to coerce the top military lawyers, the judge advocates general (JAGs), into signing a statement of uncritical support, which they refused to do. The Republican senators opposing Bush's torture policy first learned about the military's profound opposition from the JAGs. For years, the administration has considered them subversive and tried to eliminate them as a separate corps and substitute neoconservative political appointees.

In the summer of 2004 General Thomas J Fiscus, the top air force JAG, informed the senators that the administration's assertion that the JAGs backed Bush on torture was utterly false. Suspicion instantly fell upon Fiscus, one of the most aggressive opponents of torture policy, as the senators' source. Within weeks he was drummed out under a cloud of anonymous allegations by Pentagon officials of "improper relations" with women. His discharge was trumpeted in the press, but his role in the torture debate remained unknown.

Bush had intended to use his post-Hamdan bill to taint the Democrats, but instead he has split his party and further antagonised the military. His standoff on torture threatens to leave no policy whatsoever, and leave his war on terror in a twilight zone beyond the rule of law.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinion/ssi/images/Toles/c_09152006_520.gif
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 07:37 am
When Bush says 'We do not torture' ... Editorial in today's Chicago Tribune:

Quote:
Steve Chapman

Parsing words about torture


Published September 21, 2006

George W. Bush has a way, when asked about American treatment of alleged terrorists, of narrowing his eyes, jutting out his chin and stating emphatically, "We do not torture." It's the most convincing declaration by a president since Bill Clinton told the nation, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."

Clinton was telling the truth, in his way, because he defined sexual relations to exclude oral intimacy. Like Clinton, President Bush has used a seemingly unequivocal statement for the purpose of equivocation. Renouncing brutality turns out to be a way of embracing it.

One thing he means is that we do not torture according to his exceedingly narrow definition of the word. Under current policy, only the worst forms of torture are forbidden. That means we reject such time-honored methods as breaking fingers, applying electric shocks to tender body parts, burning skin with lighted cigarettes or beating the soles of feet with metal rods. Or, as one Bush administration official put it last year, "We are against ... torture by anyone's common-sense definition of it, not some fancy definition."

The official policy is that while outright torture is banned, all sorts of other tactics designed to inflict pain, suffering and fear are allowed. Depriving prisoners of food, water, sleep or medical care is OK. Forcing them to stand or kneel in uncomfortable positions for long periods passes muster.

Likewise for holding someone's head under water to make him feel he's drowning ("waterboarding"). Or putting a prisoner in a cold room, soaking him with water and leaving him to shiver. Apparently, those are torture only by "some fancy definition."

But even the policy against torture is not as firm as it looks, since the administration itself sometimes finds it convenient to go by the fancy definition. In the State Department's annual report on human rights, it condemns various governments for abusing inmates with waterboarding, sleep deprivation, forced kneeling and dousing with cold water. When they do it, it's torture. When we do it, it's an "alternative" method.

We can't even be sure how strictly the administration abides by its own rules, flexible though they are. Nearly 100 detainees have died in U.S. custody, and a study by the group Human Rights First found that at least eight of them were tortured to death. The longest prison sentence for anyone punished in these cases was five months.

Note that when Bush says, "We do not torture," he scrupulously avoids saying, "We have not tortured." Until 2003, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld explicitly authorized such now-forbidden tactics as stripping detainees, hooding them during interrogations, subjecting them to sensory deprivation and terrorizing them with dogs.

In a confidential report submitted to the White House, the International Committee of the Red Cross said conditions in Guantanamo Bay were "tantamount to torture." At Abu Ghraib, guards reportedly urinated on detainees, sodomized them with objects, forced them into sexually humiliating acts and threatened them with mock electrocution.

Our policy of abstaining from torture doesn't quite mean that those we capture will not be tortured. Under a policy known as "extraordinary rendition," the United States sometimes turns detainees over to governments that are less squeamish about these things. The advantage is that we may get the answers we want without having to do the dirty work ourselves.

This week, a Canadian government commission issued a blistering report about the treatment of a Canadian whom the U.S. arrested and shipped to Syria, where he was beaten until he confessed. We now know he was innocent. One Guantanamo inmate was sent to Egypt for interrogation. When he returned, most of his fingernails had been torn out.

Of course, the president and his allies defend nasty methods as an essential way of getting intelligence from terrorists. They say the CIA's techniques have extracted information that saved American lives. They think we shouldn't shut down this "aggressive" program, because it works.

But if methods short of torture can extract valuable information, why not go further? If waterboarding doesn't induce a terrorist to talk, why shouldn't we rip out his fingernails, break his bones, scorch his flesh or crush his genitals? The arguments used to justify the administration's coercive methods can be used to justify anything.

Bush's stated policy is "We do not torture." Anyone who really believes in the logic behind his policies ought to be asking, "Why on Earth not?"

----------

Steve Chapman is a member of the Tribune's editorial board. E-mail: [email protected]
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 07:40 am
And Molly Ivins says in the same paper:

Quote:
President puts the bully in bully pulpit

Molly Ivins, Creators Syndicate
Published September 21, 2006


AUSTIN, Texas -- Is it just me, or was that the worst presidential press conference in history? So I went back and read it over. Of course, in print you don't get the testy tone; I heard it on radio and thought the man was about to blow up--not just because he was being questioned, which President Bush appears to consider an offensive action, but because people continue to refuse to see things the way he does. How can they be so stupid, he appears to wonder.

I ask: How can he be so repetitive, repeatedly using the oldest tactic of a verbal bully--saying the same thing louder, as though that would make it true?

Last Friday's Rose Garden press conference seemed so awful I thought it worth wading through it again to see what set him off. Maybe if you saw it on television, it seemed better. Perhaps his banter with reporters works better on TV. But I left with the impression that this is a spoiled man whose frustration level when someone disagrees with him is that of a 3-year-old and that he's the last person you want to see operating under a lot of stress because he doesn't handle it well.

See what you think:

Q--"On both the eavesdropping program and the detainee issues . . . "

A--"We call it the terrorist surveillance program."

Yo. Sometimes I'm convinced this is a war of words. Should we call it surveillance or eavesdropping? Is the detainee issue about holding terrorists, or is it about torturing them and then trying them without telling them what evidence we have against them? If we stop calling it eavesdropping plus torture and with kangaroo trials, will it stop being eavesdropping, torture and kangaroo trials and become anti-terrorist activity? Who gets to name things? Would a rose by any other name, like skunkwort, smell as sweet?

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who knows more than Bush about torture in captivity, thinks abandoning the Geneva Convention rules leaves American soldiers in peril of being tortured in turn and us without a court of resort to look to.

It's a thorny issue, but Bush kept getting more and more annoyed as he reiterated, "And I will tell you again, David, you can ask every hypothetical [question] you want, but the American people have got to know the facts. And the bottom line is simple: If Congress passes a law that does not clarify the rules, if they do not do that, the program is not going forward." (In other words, we will not hold tribunals for suspected terrorists.) In what court, in what world is not allowing the defendant to hear the evidence against him held to be just?

Bush kept insisting the legislation to permit such tribunals is vital and "the program will not go forward without it" because young intelligence officers might be accused of breaking the law (!).

"Let's see if I can put it [Article III of the Geneva Conventions] this way for people to understand. There is a very vague standard that the [U.S. Supreme] court said must kind of be the guide for our conduct in the war on terror and detainee policy. It's so vague that it's impossible to ask anybody to participate in the program for fear ... of breaking the law. That's the problem."

Actually, the problem is the proposed program of tribunals is illegal, and not young intelligence officers but potentially old war criminals are at risk as well.

Now here's a Bush classic, clarifying the matter with exquisite precision:

Q--"Well, recently you've also described [Osama] bin Laden as sort of a modern-day Hitler or Mussolini. And I'm wondering why, if you can explain why you think it's a bad idea to send more resources to hunt down bin Laden, wherever he is?"

A--"We are, Richard. Thank you. Thanks for asking the question. They were asking me about somebody's report, well, special forces here--Pakistan--if he is in Pakistan, which this person thought he might be, who is asking me the question--Pakistan's a sovereign nation. In order for us to send thousands of troops into a sovereign nation, we've got to be invited by the government of Pakistan.

"Secondly, the best way to find somebody who is hiding is to enhance your intelligence and to spend the resources necessary to do that. And then when you find him, you bring him to justice. And there is a kind of an urban myth here in Washington about how this administration hasn't stayed focused on Osama bin Laden. Forget it. It's convenient throw-away lines, you know, when people say that."

Now that's a problem. Because in the lead-up to the war in Iraq, both administration officials and Bush himself repeatedly de-emphasized the importance of Osama bin Laden. This was, of course, after they had let him slip away at Tora Bora, a mistake increasingly denounced within the military itself.

As resources were transferred out of Afghanistan and toward Iraq, we were repeatedly told that bin Laden was not central to the war on terror, it would continue with or without him, he was no longer our focus. There was a flurry of commentary at the time about this odd decision, but Saddam Hussein was being presented as the great menace and monster, and bin Laden was off the table.

You might think this is a classic fork: Either they were lying then or they are lying now. But it would just take Bush longer to explain.

----------

Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist based in Austin, Texas. E-mail: [email protected]
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 07:43 am
"I think we'll see more of this the closer it gets to Nov. 7. The lefties are definitely getting edgy"...

...and if you believe that...Alaska's got a bridge-to-knowhere sale...
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:03 am
Could you guys go find another thread to post your garbage?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:11 am
WASHINGTON (AFP) - A month and a half before US midterm elections, only 25 percent of Americans approve of the Republican-controlled Congress, according to a New York Times/CBS News poll published.

The Times said Americans are as disenchanted with the US Congress now as they were in 1994, when Republicans took control from then-majority Democrats, ending their four-decade grip on the House of Representatives and regaining control of the Senate, as well.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:13 am
BBB
McGentrix wrote:
Could you guys go find another thread to post your garbage?


Only if you promise to stay away from our threads.

BBB
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:15 am
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Could you guys go find another thread to post your garbage?


Only if you promise to stay away from our threads.

BBB


Piss off. If you can't stay on a thread topic, stay out of it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:26 am
Re: BBB
McGentrix wrote:

Piss off. If you can't stay on a thread topic, stay out of it.



A2K's TOS wrote:
Quote:
Be courteous. You agree that you will not threaten or verbally abuse other members, use defamatory language ...
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:45 am
Why didn't you post the whole rule, Walter?

Quote:
...or deliberately disrupt topics with repetitive messages, meaningless messages or "spam."


This is the Bush Supporters thread. Posters here have repeatedly "spammed" the thread with the purpose of "deliberately disrupt(ing)" the topic. McG kindly asked that they desist and they refuse. Next time, why don't you get your rule book out for them as well.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 09:26 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Why didn't you post the whole rule, Walter?

Quote:
...or deliberately disrupt topics with repetitive messages, meaningless messages or "spam."


This is the Bush Supporters thread. Posters here have repeatedly "spammed" the thread with the purpose of "deliberately disrupt(ing)" the topic. McG kindly asked that they desist and they refuse. Next time, why don't you get your rule book out for them as well.

I suppose this applies to posters such as SierraSong or Ticomaya as well as others from the "far side" on such topics supporting left or democrats? or not?
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 09:32 am
yes.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 09:38 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
yes.

Dream on.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 09:44 am
Whatever, dys. Way to be antagonistic.

If you have a problem with tico and sirra on another thread why don't you go confront them there.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 09:45 am
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Could you guys go find another thread to post your garbage?


Only if you promise to stay away from our threads.

BBB

Way back in yore, I do remember a sad gnashing thread, wherein your sniffling group asked for respite from those with differing opinions. I seem to recall we were understanding, and stayed away. If I'm not mistaken, that precipitated the birth of this thread--sort of telling.

I had thought we'd all decided there should be one thread each for peaceful partisanship.

I think the people here would be happy to reinstate that agreement, if they aren't the only ones honoring it.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 09:47 am
I'm too antagonistic to agree to much of anything.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 09:48 am
yep
0 Replies
 
 

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