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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 05:52 am
As long as the Iraqi government, any Iraqi government, has a tolerance for militias, and as long as those militias have allegiance to political parties/figures with an equally powerful alignment with ethnic/religious groups - then the government will fail and civil war will result.

c.i.: Do you remember what aspect of religion was used to garner support amongst Palestinians?

revel: Thanks for that Guardian article - such activities and sentiments are clearly not covered in mainstream media here.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 06:12 am
No matter which party is PM, I imagine the militias would be tolerated since all the parties have them.

Be that as it may, it is good that Mr. Jaafari is not bowing to outside pressure or else the whole democracy thing is a joke. We can't put on the democracy suit when it is to our interest and take it off when it is not. The Shiite's won enough votes to pick their own PM and everybody just has to accept it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 06:20 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Your incessant hyperbole is so far over the top that rational discussion with you is impossible.


Ah yes, words of wisdom from the wise man on high, dropped down like pearls before swine.

We are not worthy.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 06:23 am
I rather suspect the militias are "tolerated" because there are so damned many of them that, given the feeble qualities of Iraqi security forces, and the embarrassingly understrength "coalition" forces, there is no reasonable possibility of disarming those boys. That nation has to be awash in, at least, assault rifles. The evidence is rather good, in a horrid sort of way, that access to explosives, or materials from which explosives can be made, is rather a simple matter.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 06:36 am
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 07:13 am
As to the militias, I am sure that they serve multiple purposes: buying allegiance with payroll funds that also get money to families for survival, keeping the lads busy and controlled as there are no jobs. No reconstruction. No anything else to occupy their time and interests.

Not to mention the sense of empowerment that comes to the troops and their "leaders".
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 07:22 am
Those are all important considerations, to be sure.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 07:43 am
I wonder what the term and concept of "coalition government" means to the average Iraqi, or to the elected representatives of its' Parliament.

Bush keeps calling for it, but I certainly have never heard that word used to refer to our government.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/29/AR2006032901339_pf.html

"'Get Governing,' Bush Tells Iraqis

By Peter Baker
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 30, 2006; A18



President Bush urged quarreling Iraqi leaders yesterday to set aside disagreements and forge a coalition government that will rein in illegal militias. His comments signaled increased frustration with the political deadlock in Baghdad more than three months after landmark parliamentary elections.

White House aides denied reports that the president is directly pressuring Iraq's leaders to dump interim Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jafari in the new government. But the vision they described for the next leader seemed to suggest a preference for someone other than the Shiite leader backed by one of Iraq's most potent militias.

As Shiite, Sunni Arab and Kurdish representatives haggle over power, Bush has grown irritated at the stalemate, aides said, and he expressed the impatience publicly in response to an audience question at Freedom House after his latest speech on the war.

"It's about time you get a unity government going," Bush said, addressing Iraqi leaders. "In other words, Americans understand newcomers to the political arena, but pretty soon it's time to shut her down and get governing." "
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 07:50 am
Condy's coming here tomorrow, to Blackburn, Lancashire

http://www.guardian.co.uk/antiwar/story/0,,1740367,00.html
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 07:56 am
"If you start looking at them as humans, how you gonna kill them?"

Iraq veterans interviews


http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1741699,00.html
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 08:43 am
I read the news today, Oh Boy!
Four thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire . . .
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 09:07 am
I knew you would pick up on that Set, you old rocker, you. Smile
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 09:08 am
Bad habits die hard . . .

Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall ! ! !
I'd love to turn you o-o-o-o-on . . .
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 09:45 am
To continue with the PNAC war-mongering theme,

Quote:
Neo-con cabal blocked 2003 nuclear talks
By Gareth Porter

WASHINGTON - The George W Bush administration failed to enter into negotiations with Iran on its nuclear program in May 2003 because neo-conservatives who advocated destabilization and regime change were able to block any serious diplomatic engagement with Tehran, according to former administration officials.

The same neo-conservative veto power also prevented the administration from adopting any official policy statement on Iran, those same officials said.

Lawrence Wilkerson, then chief of staff to secretary of state Colin Powell, said the failure to adopt a formal Iran policy in 2002-03 was the result of obstruction by a "secret cabal" of neo-conservatives in the administration, led by Vice President Dick Cheney.

"The secret cabal got what it wanted: no negotiations with Tehran," Wilkerson wrote in an e-mail to Inter Press Service (IPS).
The Iranian negotiating offer, transmitted to the State Department in early May 2003 by the Swiss ambassador in Tehran, acknowledged that Iran would have to address US concerns about its nuclear program, although it made no specific concession in advance of the talks, according to Flynt Leverett, then the National Security Council's senior director for Middle East Affairs.

Iran's offer also raised the possibility of cutting off Iran's support for Hamas and Islamic Jihad and converting Hezbollah into a purely socio-political organization, according to Leverett. That was an explicit response to Powell's demand in late March that Iran "end its support for terrorism".

In return, Leverett recalls, the Iranians wanted the US to address security questions, the lifting of economic sanctions and normalization of relations, including support for Iran's integration into the global economic order.

Leverett also recalls that the Iranian offer was drafted with the blessing of all the major political players in the Iranian regime, including Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khomeini.

Realists, led by Powell and his deputy, Richard Armitage, were inclined to respond positively to the Iranian offer. Nevertheless, within a few days of its receipt, the State Department had rebuked the Swiss ambassador for having passed on the offer.

Exactly how the decision was made is not known. "As with many of these issues of national security decision-making, there are no fingerprints," Wilkerson told IPS. "But I would guess Dick Cheney with the blessing of George W Bush."

As Wilkerson observes, however, the mysterious death of what became known among Iran specialists as Iran's "grand bargain" initiative was a result of the administration's inability to agree on a policy toward Tehran.

A draft National Security Policy Directive (NSPD) on Iran calling for diplomatic engagement had been in the process of interagency coordination for more than a year, according to a source who asked to remain unidentified.

But it was impossible to get formal agreement on the NSPD, the source recalled, because officials in Cheney's office and in under secretary of defense for policy Douglas Feith's Office of Special Plans wanted a policy of regime change and kept trying to amend it.

Opponents of the neo-conservative policy line blame Condoleezza Rice, then the national security adviser, for the failure of the administration to override the extremists in the administration. The statutory policymaker process on Iran, Wilkerson told IPS in an e-mail, was "managed by a national security adviser incapable of standing up to the cabal..."

In the absence of an Iran policy, the two contending camps struggled in 2003 over a proposal by realists in the administration to reopen the Geneva channel with Iran that had been used successfully on Afghanistan in 2001-02. They believed Iran could be helpful in stabilizing post-conflict Iraq, because the Iraqi Shi'ite militants whom they expected to return from Iran after Saddam Hussein's overthrow owed some degree of allegiance to Iran.

The neo-conservatives tried to block those meetings on tactical policy grounds, according to Leverett. "They were saying we didn't want to engage with Iran because we didn't want to owe them," he recalled.

Nevertheless, US ambassador to Afghanistan Zalmay Khalilzad (now envoy in Iraq) was authorized to begin meeting secretly in Geneva with Iranian officials to discuss Iraq. The neo-conservatives then tried to sandbag the talks by introducing a demand for full information on any high-ranking al-Qaeda cadres who might be detained by the Iranians.

Iran regarded that information as a bargaining chip to be given up only for a quid pro quo from Washington. The Bush administration, however, had adopted a policy in early 2002 of refusing to share any information with Iran on al-Qaeda or other terrorist organizations.

On May 3, 2003, as the Iranian "grand bargain" proposal was on its way to Washington, Tehran's representative in Geneva, Javad Zarif, offered a compromise on the issue, according to Leverett: if the US gave Iran the names of the cadres of the Mujahideen-e Khalq (MEK) who were being held by US forces in Iraq, Iran would give the US the names of the al-Qaeda operatives they had detained.

The MEK had carried out armed attacks against Iran from Iraqi territory during the Hussein regime and had been named a terrorist organization by the US. But it had capitulated to US forces after the invasion, and the neo-conservatives now saw the MEK as a potential asset in an effort to destabilize the Iranian regime.

The MEK had already become a key element in the alternative draft NSPD drawn up by neo-conservatives in the administration.

The indictment of Iran analyst Larry Franklin on Feith's staff last year revealed that, by February 2003, Franklin had begun sharing a draft NSPD that he knew would be to the liking of the Israeli Embassy.

(Franklin eventually pleaded guilty to passing classified information to two employees of an influential pro-Israel lobbying group and was sentenced to 12 and a half years in prison.)

Reflecting the substance of that draft policy, ABC News reported on May 30, 2003, that the Pentagon was calling for the destabilization of the Iranian government by "using all available points of pressure on the Iranian regime, including backing armed Iranian dissidents and employing the services of the Mujahideen-e Khalq ..."

Nevertheless, Bush apparently initially saw nothing wrong with trading information on MEK, despite arguments that MEK should not be repatriated to Iran. "I have it on good authority," Leverett told IPS, "that Bush's initial reaction was, 'But we say there is no such thing as a good terrorist.'" Nevertheless, Bush finally rejected the Iranian proposal.

By the end of May, the neo-conservatives had succeeded in closing down the Geneva channel for good. They had hoped to push through their own NSPD on Iran, but according to the Franklin indictment, Franklin told an Israeli Embassy officer in October that work on the NSPD had been stopped.

But the damage had been done. With no direct diplomatic contact between Iran and the US, the neo-conservatives had a clear path to raising tensions and building political support for regarding Iran as the primary enemy of the United States.

Gareth Porter is a historian and national security policy analyst. His latest book, Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam, was published last June.

(Inter Press Service)


http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HC30Ak01.html

How much has to be read before you doubters realize that these people had an agenda?

An agenda of war, not of peace. They sought to remake the image of the middle east through war. And it has lead to the very problems we face today with Iran.

Once again, the non-PNAC members of the Admin describe the PNAC members as a 'cabal' within the whitehouse.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 10:11 am
Sure it was a cabal, with Bush's support (or he may have been kept in the dark about day to day activities), Rice unwilling or unable to influence it, and more or less unilateral autonomy. A real shadow government.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 12:43 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
To continue with the PNAC war-mongering theme,

...

How much has to be read before you doubters realize that these people had an agenda?
PNAC had, has, and will have an agenda. Their agenda is exactly what they have declared their agenda to be. Many of PNAC's member/activists are also members of the administration.

An agenda of war, not of peace. They sought to remake the image of the middle east through war.
I agree.

And it has lead to the very problems we face today with Iran.
The problems we face today with Iran began to grow rapidly way back in the late 1970s when the Mullahs replaced their king with Mullahs. The PNAC's formation is a reaction to that and other middle east rapidly growing problems. I think it a wrong but understandable reaction. I think it would have been better for them to direct their efforts to providing more timely direct help to the Iranian people to remove their Mullah leaders themselves.

Once again, the non-PNAC members of the Admin describe the PNAC members as a 'cabal' within the whitehouse.
But are administration members of PNAC truly a cabal? I think not. Nothing secret about them, not even their membership in PNAC.

(emphasis in the following definition added by ican711nm)

www.m-w.com
Quote:
Main Entry: 1ca·bal
Pronunciation: k&-'bäl, -'bal
Function: noun
Etymology: French cabale cabala, intrigue, cabal, from Medieval Latin cabbala cabala, from Late Hebrew qabbAlAh, literally, received (lore)
: the artifices and intrigues of a group of persons secretly united to bring about an overturn or usurpation especially in public affairs; also : a group engaged in such artifices and intrigues
synonym see PLOT


Cycloptichorn


Did Bush order America's invasion of Afghanistan to serve PNAC's interest or America's interest? I say he did that to serve America's interest. He did that to end the terrorist malignancy's possession of sanctuary in Afghanistan.

Did Bush order America's invasion of Iraq to serve PNAC's interest or America's interest? I say he did that to serve America's interest. He did that to end the terrorist malignancy's possession of sanctuary in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 01:06 pm
A head of steam is getting up here about protesting Condi's visit.

She was going to visit a local mosque, but that's been cancelled because of expected protest action.

I think things may turn ugly...or perhaps that's just Jack Straw (the British D Rumsfeld)

Some people want to be hospitable and nice, she's only a woman after all, and a foreigner in our country....and some want to stand and be counted against the invasion of Iraq.
We're not so ruthless, in this country, about keeping the protestors away from the politicians- but the police don't like having visiting dignitaries discomfited.
Maybe she will have her trip curtailed a bit.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 01:21 pm
Condi Rice was in London during February for the Afghan Conference. Were there any protests then?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 01:28 pm
A bit I think, but this is supposed to be an informal walkabout and meet-the-people.

A bit too soon, I think. We'll see.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2006 01:48 pm
McTag,
Your signature, "The masses are driven by irrational forces," suggests a question. Are those "irrational forces" intrinsic or extrinsic?

If intrinsic, might those "irrational forces" be a function of the DNA of the masses? If so, might the elite also be driven by the same "irrational forces?"

If extrinsic, might those "irrational forces" be political forces? If so, are those irrational political forces driven by "irrational forces" intrinsic to politicians?
0 Replies
 
 

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