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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 01:39 pm
Good job of bringing the thread back on topic, Kara.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 01:39 pm
This is it (from Robert Fisk):

I read a fearful prophecy by the evangelical preacher Pat Buchanan written five months before we illegally invaded Iraq. "This invasion will not be the cakewalk neo-conservatives predict," he said. "Terrorist attacks in liberated Iraq seem as certain as in liberated Afghanistan. For a militant Islam ... will never accept George Bush dictating the destiny of the Islamic world ... Pax Americana will reach apogee but then the tide recedes; for the one endeavour at which Islamic peoples excel is expelling imperial powers by terror and guerrilla warfare." There were the dreary precedents. Muslims drove the Brits out of Palestine and Aden; the French out of Algeria; the Russians out of Afghanistan; the Americans out of Somalia; and Beirut, the Israelis out of Lebanon. As Buchanan wrote, "we have started up the road to empire, and over the next hill we will meet those who went before."
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 01:43 pm
One more bit. The most scary-incisive of all:

(Robert Fisk).....What was it Bush told us a few weeks ago? That 30,000 Iraqis had been killed since the invasion, his very words a racist admission; for what he actually said was: "30,000 more or less". More or less, give or take a few hundred. Would he have dared to say that US casualties were "2,000 more or less"? Of course not. Our dead are precious; they are individuals with widows and children. The Iraqis? Well, they are lesser beings whose casualties cannot be revealed to us by the Iraqi Ministry of Health, on orders from the Americans and British; creatures whose suffering, far greater than our own, must be submerged in the democracy and freedom in which we are drowning them; whose casualties "More or less" are probably nearer to 150,000. After all, if 1,000 Iraqis could die by violence last July - in Baghdad alone; and if they are being killed at 60 or 70 a day, then we have a near genocidal bloodbath on our hands. Iraqis, however, are now ourUntermenschen for whom, frankly, we do not greatly care.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 05:09 pm
Yes, indeed. The Independent was full of that kind of thing today, very sombre.
Contrasting markedly from the arrogant, jingoistic triumphalism of the right-wing commentators in the "Shock and Awe" days.

For students of this kind of thing, Johann Hari's piece in the same newspaper is worth reading. He originally was a supporter of the invasion, but has diametrically changed his opinion.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 06:48 pm
McTag, I clicked on his piece, but I had already paid to read two of Fisk's so didn't follow through. I read the teaser intro that the Independent fed me, and now I'll have to pay and read it.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 06:59 pm
We are fighting a war.

These are the reasons why:

(1) We Americans probably face a sizeable risk of being murdered by Terrorist Malignancy, if we decide to limit the defense of ourselves against Terrorist Malignancy to only here in America;

(2) The state of Afghanistan harbored (i.e., allowed sanctuary to) al-Qaeda Terrorist Malignancy from May 1996 to October 2001, when the USA invaded Afghanistan seeking to end their sanctuary in Afghanistan;

(3) The state of Iraq harbored (i.e., allowed sanctuary to) al-Qaeda Terrorist Malignancy from December 2001 to March 2003, when the USA invaded Iraq to end their sanctuary in Iraq;

(4) Tuesday night, September 11, 2001, the President broadcast to the nation:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Quote:
We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.


(5) Friday, September 14, 2001 Congress passed:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/terroristattack/joint-resolution_9-14.html
Quote:
The President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.


(6) Thursday, September 20, 2001, President Bush addressed the nation before a joint session of Congress:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Quote:
Tonight we are a country awakened to danger. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.


(7) Wednesday, October 16, 2002, Congress passed a joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq and gave two subsequently verified, primary and sufficient reasons for doing so:
www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf
Quote:
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;


But, you protest Bush and Congress also said Iraq possessed WMD when it did not. But, I protest that 19 terrorists, first trained in Afghanistan, armed with box cutters and no WMD, hijacked four airliners, and flew them into American buildings or into the ground killing almost 3,000 American civilians.

Suppose President Bush and Vice-President Chenney resign tomorrow.

How should we prevent 9/11s happening again in future: Domestically surveilling suspected terrorists, removing terrorist training sanctuaries, removing governments that harbor terrorists, exterminating terrorists, and/or ignoring terrorists?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 07:04 pm
Your "sizeable risk" is all in your brain. You have a better chance of getting killed driving in your car. You fail to see it, but it's a matter of ratonal thinking and logic.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 07:09 pm
I'm pretty positive that the military men and women will wake up one day to learn how this president continues to cut their veteran's benefit.

Plan to Raise Military Retirees' Health Costs Faces a Tough Fight

By Stephen Barr
Thursday, March 16, 2006; Page D04

Like any other large employer, the Defense Department is struggling to hold down spending on health care, especially for retirees. But a Bush administration plan to raise fees and co-payments for medical coverage provided to military retirees under 65 has run into tough opposition.

Yesterday, a dozen groups representing military officers, enlisted personnel, reservists and retirees denounced the administration's plan as an unfair tax and pledged to support a bipartisan bill that would strip the Pentagon of its authority to raise health care enrollment fees and pharmacy co-paymen
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 07:14 pm
There is a far greater chance of loss of life in our other war, Ican - the war on Drugs. This is indicated by real-world statistics, not hypothetical musings.

Shouldn't we be focused primarily on the most destructive force against us? Also, if Wars against Concepts count as wars, then the War on Drugs takes precedence; it was around first, has lead to the demise of many an American, the death of many an innocent American, and the general degredation to our society.

You are quite fond of statistics. Tell me: why is force appropriate in the War on Terror (a concept, not a nation), but not in the War on Drugs(a concept, not a nation)?

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 07:24 pm
The war on drugs has been going on for decades because our laws to control drugs is just a slap on the wrist compared to many other countries that prohibit drugs.

I remember the first time I was flying into Kuala Lumpur in 1995 when the loudspeaker came on and a staff told all of us - about 30 minutes before landing - that the penalty for possessing drugs is death.

That pretty much ends any discussion about the possession of illegal drugs. Malaysia doesn't have any drug problem.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 07:32 pm
Ican: How should we prevent 9/11s happening again in future.

We may not ever be able to prevent every sort of possible terrorist attack on this country. Any administration can only do what is reasonable and then open itself to learning of the outside world and what will work in diplomacy and negotiation.

There are things we can do, and one of the most important is to find a better way to inspect what comes into our ports in containers. We have not done this job well and it must be done. A warhead, broken down in parts, can enter this country easily in a container. It will not be brought over the Canadian or Mexican border by an illegal immigrant.

We must not raise the level of hysteria in our country, as this admininstration has done. They have tried to control our minds and what we read and know by creating fear and then by saying that Daddy will take care of you by limiting your freedoms for your own good and by your realizing that Big Daddy knows best and you must always listen to what he says and never acknowledge that Big Daddy could be wrong. "We know things that you don't know" is what will keep you subject to our control.

What will prevent more 9-11's is working to partner countries such as Iran, agreeing to help them develop domestic nuclear energy which would (have) allowed us to send experts into that country that could be on the ground now as trusted allies. We really blew that one. All they wanted was to be one of the "players" and, of course, to have a deterrent, as all of us big guys have, so that they could bluff other countries, as we do. They saw what happened with India, of course....

I could go on, but you're probably not listening.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:21 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Your "sizeable risk" is all in your brain. You have a better chance of getting killed driving in your car. You fail to see it, but it's a matter of ratonal thinking and logic.

Well that really depends on the true intentions of the terrorists, the effectiveness of our defenses and the sizes and locations of the next terrorist attacks on Americans, doesn't it.

About 45,000 Americans per year are killed driving motor vehicles. That is equivalent to about fifteen 9/11 attacks.

What is the evidence (i.e., rational thinking and logic) that the terrorists true intentions are merely to get Americans to leave Iraq, and not follow up our departure with the equivalent of fifteen 9/11s?

Here is some evidence (i.e., rational thinking and logic) that the terrorists true intentions are to get Americans to leave Iraq, and follow up our departure with more than the equivalent of fifteen 9/11s?

1. Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"-1996.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
Quote:
Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner.

Quote:
Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.



2. Osama Bin Laden: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans-1998
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
Quote:
On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."



3. Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols; Translation By JUS; Jun 09, 2004 from the Al-Qaida Organization of the Arab Gulf; 19 Rabbi Al-Akhir 1425
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00035.html
Quote:
No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.

Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.


Book: Al-Zarqawi: al Qaeda's Second Generation by Jordanian journalist, Fouad Hussein.
Quote:
Al Qaeda's seven phase plan for world conquest.

Phase 1, the "wakeup call." Spectacular terrorist attacks on the West
(like September 11, 2001) get the infidels (non-Moslems) to make war on
Islamic nations. This arouses Moslems, and causes them to flock to al
Qaedas banner. This phase is considered complete.

Phase 2, the "eye opening." This is the phase we are in, where al Qaeda
does battle with the infidels, and shows over a billion Moslems how
it's done. This phase is supposed to be completed by next year.

Phase 3, "the rising." Millions of aroused (in a terrorist sense)
Moslems go to war against Islam's enemies for the rest of the decade.
Especially heavy attacks are made against Israel. It is believed that
major damage in Israel will force the world to acknowledge al Qaeda as a major power, and negotiate with it.

Phase 4, "the downfall." By 2013, al Qaeda will control the Persian
Gulf, and all its oil, as well as most of the Middle East. This will
enable al Qaeda to cripple the American economy, and American military
power.

Phase 5, "the Caliphate." By 2016, the Caliphate (one government for
all Moslem nations) will be established. At this point, nearly all
Western cultural influences will be eliminated from Islamic nations. The
Caliphate will organize a mighty army for the next phase.

Phase 6, "world conquest." By 2022, the rest of the world will be
conquered by the righteous and unstoppable armies of Islam. This is the
phase that Osama bin Laden has been talking about for years.

Phase 7, "final victory." All the world's inhabitants will be forced to
either convert to Islam, or submit (as second class citizens) to
Islamic rule. This will be completed by 2025 or thereabouts.

Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi
www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html
Quote:
A summary of Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi July 9, 2005.

*The war in Iraq is central to al Qa'ida's global jihad.
*The war will not end with an American departure.
*Their strategic vision is one of inevitable conflict with a call by al-Zawahiri for political action equal to military action.
*Popular support must be maintained at least until jihadist rule has been established.
*More than half the struggle is taking place "in the battlefield of the media."

Letter in English at:
www.dni.gov/letter_in_english.pdf


Booklet by the Pakistani jihadist group Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure)
Quote:
... the U.S., Israel and India as existential enemies of Islam and lists eight reasons for global jihad. These include the restoration of Islamic sovereignty to all lands where Muslims were once ascendant, including Spain, "Bulgaria, Hungary, Cyprus, Sicily, Ethiopia, Russian Turkistan and Chinese Turkistan. . . Even parts of France reaching 90 kilometers outside Paris."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:26 pm
Kara wrote:
Ican: How should we prevent 9/11s happening again in future.
...
I could go on, but you're probably not listening.

I am listening and reading. Please go on.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:32 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:

...
a staff told all of us - about 30 minutes before landing - that the penalty for possessing drugs is death.

That pretty much ends any discussion about the possession of illegal drugs. Malaysia doesn't have any drug problem.

I infer you approve the death penalty for possession of drugs.

But you do not approve the death penalty for terrorists (i.e., extermination of terrorists).

Hmm ................
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:34 pm
Any fruitcake like Osama can make threats, because people like you take it to heart. If you are able to use a little common sense and rational thinking, the threat is mostly bluster without any way to carry it out. You're the only one with a malignancy - and it's all in your brain. You still haven't outgrown the fear of the boogy man. Your childish outcrys crosses the border. There are six billion people on this planet. Osama doesn't have the wherewithal to kill everybody, and never will. Your chance to win the lotto is much greater.
0 Replies
 
Anonymouse
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:50 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Any fruitcake like Osama can make threats, because people like you take it to heart. If you are able to use a little common sense and rational thinking, the threat is mostly bluster without any way to carry it out. You're the only one with a malignancy - and it's all in your brain. You still haven't outgrown the fear of the boogy man. Your childish outcrys crosses the border. There are six billion people on this planet. Osama doesn't have the wherewithal to kill everybody, and never will. Your chance to win the lotto is much greater.


Unfortunately, trying to use reason with myopic minds is as wasted as water poured on desert sands.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:52 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Any fruitcake like Osama can make threats, because people ... take it to heart. If you are able to use a little common sense and rational thinking, the threat is mostly bluster without any way to carry it out. ... There are six billion people on this planet. Osama doesn't have the wherewithal to kill everybody, and never will.
...

Osama need not "kill everybody" to tyrannize everybody. There are about 300 million Americans. If Osama were to kill only 45,000, (i.e., 0.015%) that would easily be sufficient to at least begin to tyrannize the rest: 45,000 here, 45,000 there, before you know it we're talking real tyranny.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 09:03 pm
Anonymouse wrote:

...
Unfortunately, trying to use reason with myopic minds is as wasted as water poured on desert sands.

I agree!
0 Replies
 
Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 09:26 pm
McGentrix wrote:
All the attack dogs on A2K have the same routine. Slobber all over the threads til the point is lost and then try to act haughtily superior when questioned on their tactics. The moderators on A2K are impotent anymore as it has continued unabated and has become a free-for-all doggypile by the asshat liberals here. Conservative voices are drowned out by the 12:1 ratio of hateful libbies who have made it their personal dream in life to put McG, Tico, Brandon, etc in "their place". What a goal in life... Rolling Eyes

When called on it, they blabber on about "hypocrisy" and whine on and on and on and on... It's a pitiful life indeed when the best you can do is "Do you still cry to your mommy?"

So, carry on with your group masterbations. That seems to be the only thing most of you are good at anyways.



This response is a prime example of a comment that I wrote for some Repugs at Abuzz several yrs ago.

Any time a conservative/Republican/'Rightie' tries to describe a Democrat/ Liberal or anyone who disagrees with him, he always ........
ALWAYS describes himself.

Which of course is the Bushie standard operating procedure..... attack, lie, cheat, steal, then point the fingers and say "he did it".

What a sorry state this country has descended to since Chicken George started preaching his own special brand of hatred 5 yrs ago.

Then there are his little echos, like McGentrix pushing the agenda with all their miserable little hearts.

McGentrix has something in common with Chicken George.... he deep in lala land.


0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Mar, 2006 09:31 pm
Right, mag. Disagree with them and get accused of spewing hatred.
0 Replies
 
 

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