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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 04:24 pm
(just an aside comment ,
mctag wrote : "No solution has come out of America yet even for New Orleans".
i just listenened to CNBC businesss news ;
some reconstruction experts were being quizzed on the 'new orleans renewal' .
their assessment : "five years , if we are lucky and if the money doesn't run out " .
CNBC is not known for its liberal leanings btw). hbg
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 04:38 pm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11924.htm
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 06:07 pm
Brought to you by the American Committees on Foreign Relations ACFR NewsGroup No. 676, Wednesday, March 1, 2006
Quote:
Myths of the Current War
By Frederick W. Kagan
Posted: Friday, February 24, 2006
NATIONAL SECURITY OUTLOOK
AEI Online
Publication Date: February 24, 2006

March 2006

The debate about American policy and strategy in Iraq has veered off course. A number of myths have crept into the discussion over the past two years that distort understanding and confuse discussion. It is possible and appropriate to question the wisdom of any particular strategy proposed for Iraq, including the Bush administration’s strategy, and there is reason to be both concerned and encouraged by recent events there. But constructive dialogue about how to choose the best way forward is hampered by the distortions caused by certain myths. Until these myths recede from discussions about Iraq strategy, progress in those discussions is extremely unlikely.

Myth 1: The Bush administration intends to keep substantial U.S. forces in Iraq for a long time and must be pressured to bring them home quickly.

Those members of Congress like Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.) and Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who have demanded timetables for the rapid withdrawal of American forces from Iraq, implicitly argue that the administration would otherwise desire to keep U.S. troops in Iraq indefinitely. The idea behind these demands is that only external pressure will force the administration to hand Iraq over to the Iraqis and to withdraw American soldiers. In a recent interview, Murtha claimed that his pressure had changed administration policy in this regard, by driving the Pentagon to announce plans for rapid cuts in troop strength in Iraq.[1]

This assertion is false. The American strategy in Iraq from the very beginning of hostilities in March 2003 has been to remove all U.S. forces from the country as rapidly as possible. That was the basis of the “small footprint” idea under which the military fought the war with too few troops to prevent the rise of the insurgency. As the insurgency began, the military consistently underreacted in the deployment of troops and pursued a series of strategies to avoid increasing the number of troops in the country. Since mid-2004, the administration has stuck to a single determined strategy to train a large Iraqi army to wage the counterinsurgency and to withdraw American forces as that army becomes able to take over responsibilities in Iraq.[2]

The senior leaders in the administration, both civil and military, have made it plain from the beginning of the conflict that they believe that the U.S. presence in Iraq is an irritant, that it should be kept as small as possible, and that it should be withdrawn as quickly as possible. At no time has the administration indicated any goal other than withdrawing U.S. forces from Iraq as rapidly as circumstances permit. The only caveat has been that the administration would not withdraw troops if such withdrawals would jeopardize the establishment of a peaceful and stable regime in Iraq.[3]

The insistence on the establishment of arbitrary timetables diverges from administration policy in one respect only: Murtha, Pelosi, and others who advocate this course must accept the possibility that withdrawals on a given timetable may lead to the collapse of the Iraqi state. If they are unwilling to accept that result--if they would want to suspend the withdrawal if the situation began to collapse, for instance--then there is no material difference between their position and the president’s. This so-called debate over timetables, therefore, is a debate over whether the United States should remain committed to trying to succeed in Iraq or whether America should be willing to lose there in order to retreat rapidly.[4]

Myth 2: The presence of U.S. forces in Iraq is the major source of the conflict there. Peace will return to Iraq as Americans leave.

Ironically, this myth was first expounded by the U.S. military, which used it as the basis for arguing that American forces in Iraq must be as small as possible, interact as little as possible with the population, and leave as quickly as they can, consistent with ensuring success. The underlying assumptions are that Iraqis are a proud people unwilling to tolerate “invaders” and that the American presence has galvanized disparate elements of the population to take up arms to repel the invasion.[5]

There is a certain amount of truth here, of course: a significant portion of the Sunni Arab insurgency is devoted to attacking Americans and driving them from Iraq, and a few elements of the Shiite community have joined in such attacks for their own reasons. The logical leap from that fact to the assertion that if only the Americans would leave, the insurgency would die down and peace would ensue, however, is baseless and indefensible.

In the first place, a significant goal of the Sunni Arab insurgency has always been to prevent the establishment of a Shiite government in Baghdad with power over the Sunni lands. For this reason, alongside attacks on American troops, there has always been a steady drumbeat of attacks against Shiites and against Sunni Arabs seen as collaborating with the regime either by taking leadership positions or by volunteering to serve in its police and armed forces. In 2005, a number of insurgent groups decided to prioritize attacking collaborators and members of the Iraqi Security Forces over hitting coalition troops. Insurgent literature regularly distinguishes between “civilians,” who are not to be targeted, and “traitors” or “collaborators,” who are legitimate targets. This differentiation and refocusing of target priorities clearly shows that the presence of coalition forces is by no means the only--or even the main--catalyst driving the insurgency.[6]

It is too easy in this regard to emphasize the current focus of insurgent propaganda without reflecting on its deeper roots, aims, and purposes. The Iraqi insurgents are united to a considerable extent in their desire to expel the United States from Iraq. It does not follow that their success in that goal would lead to peace. On the contrary, it is clear from their writings that the main insurgent groups have been intentionally putting off expositions of their ultimate aims in order to pursue a fragile harmony during the occupation. The withdrawal of coalition troops will remove the need for the insurgent groups to hold back.[7]

The results of such a rapid withdrawal will be primarily negative. Insurgent groups may initially begin to struggle with one another, both arguing and fighting over their future visions of the country. All will almost certainly attack the Iraqi government and security forces with renewed vigor. The absence of coalition forces will embolden some to increase sectarian violence in the hope of igniting a civil war. The likely result will be either chaos or the further weeding-out and merging of insurgent groups into larger organizations capable of posing a significant challenge to a very weak central regime. The prospects for the success of that regime in such a scenario are very dim.

There is considerable evidence, furthermore, that the insurgents are already sensing victory in the repeated statements of the American intention to withdraw rapidly and are biding their time in anticipation of a more propitious moment to strike the regime. The establishment of a timetable for withdrawal will only add momentum, swelling the ranks of the rebels and encouraging more and more serious attacks.[8]

Focusing on the “irritating” presence of coalition forces is therefore extremely shortsighted and reveals a real lack of imagination about how events are likely to unfold once those forces have been removed. It is nearly certain that coalition forces are all that is now standing between Iraq and sectarian civil war, and the premature withdrawal of those forces on some fixed timeline will probably open the floodgates of chaos.

Myth 3: The war in Iraq is a distraction from the war on terrorism.

Opponents of the war in Iraq have argued from the beginning that because Saddam Hussein was not directly tied to the 9/11 attacks or al Qaeda, as the administration at times has claimed, the war in Iraq is a distraction from the war on terror. They have argued that the diversion of resources from Afghanistan to Iraq has allowed Osama bin Laden to remain at liberty and has prevented the United States from following up on its successes during Operation Enduring Freedom to finish off al Qaeda.[9]

Claims of Saddam’s prewar involvement with al Qaeda certainly seem to have been exaggerated--although it is known that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi trained soldiers under the aegis of the Taliban alongside al Qaeda fighters and then moved into Iraq before the U.S. attack.[10] This question, however, is no longer relevant to the problem of determining U.S. strategy in the war on terror. Al Qaeda’s “second-in-command,” Ayman al-Zawahiri, has repeatedly said that he now sees Iraq as the central front in the struggle with the West.[11] Zarqawi has linked his ideological program with that of Zawahiri and bin Laden to make plain that he has no intention of stopping with success in Iraq, should he attain it. Above all, the key question is: will chaos in Iraq help or hinder al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations in their struggle with the United States and the West? The answer is, of course, that it will help them.

The Bush administration’s strategy in Iraq may or may not succeed. Certainly it has received a great deal of criticism from all sides. But those who argue for an immediate (or rapid) withdrawal of American forces to “refocus” them on the war on terror have the burden of showing that such a withdrawal will not lead to the sort of chaos in which terrorist organizations thrive. There can be no question of the inability now and for some time of the Iraqi government to control its territory fully. Nor is there any question of the resources potentially available to terrorists in Iraq--as they were not readily available in impoverished and war-torn Afghanistan. Those resources include not only money and weapons, but access to military specialists, technology, and scientists who had been working on Saddam’s WMD programs. This is a recipe for catastrophe on a greater scale than September 11, and there is every reason to believe that a premature withdrawal of American forces would precipitate such a catastrophe. Whatever the relevance of Iraq in the war on terror in 2003, it is a critical front in that war today.

Nor is it at all clear how withdrawing from Iraq would help reallocate resources to the sort of struggle most people have in mind when they think of the fight against al Qaeda. The conventional forces in Iraq would certainly be of little use in chasing bin Laden and his colleagues around the Pakistani mountains. More Special Forces troops might help, but even so, the United States can hardly flood the Pakistani tribal areas where most of the al Qaeda leadership seems to be hiding with thousands of Special Forces warriors. Deploying more U.S. soldiers to Afghanistan is a good idea and essential to maintaining that state’s fragile progress toward stability, but, again, the main al Qaeda bases are no longer in Afghanistan. It is simply very hard to see how withdrawing from Iraq would directly support better resourcing of the war on terror, even if success in Iraq were not so vital to success in the larger struggle.

Myth 4: The wisdom of invading Iraq in 2003 should be an important part of the discussion about what to do in Iraq today.

When John Kerry made criticism of Bush’s decision to go to war--rather than of current administration strategy in Iraq--the centerpiece of his campaign, he helped ensure that future debates over policy there would be fruitless. From the standpoint of American policy today, it simply does not matter whether attacking Saddam in 2003 was the right decision or not. The question must be: where do we go from here?

>From the standpoint of American domestic politics, criticizing the decision to go to war is, of course, perfectly valid and may even have been essential. The American public was certainly entitled to make up its mind whether or not Bush had made a mistake and to fire him if it felt that he had done so. The electorate chose not to do so, implicitly accepting either the administration’s rationale for invading or the irrelevance of the discussion to the matter at hand. Either way, the wisdom of the invasion is now purely a matter for historians.

In May 1950, Korea was an irrelevant peninsula not many people could locate on a map. Truman administration officials did not find it necessary to include Korea among the list of places in Asia that the United States would have to defend. Yet on June 25, 1950, Korea became a central battlefield in the Cold War. The United States committed hundreds of thousands of troops to its defense, and the war has affected the American military, U.S. national security policy, and U.S. domestic politics ever since. It is impossible to say in advance whether a specific region is or is not going to be vital to a particular struggle. The centrality of a battle in a larger conflict arises from its circumstances and the likely consequences of success or failure. As it was in Korea--and, in a more negative sense, another “irrelevant” struggle fought in a “meaningless” backwater, Vietnam--so it is in Iraq. It does not matter now why we went into Iraq, only what will happen if we do not succeed there.

Myth 5: Most Iraqis “want us out,” and we have lost the battle for “hearts and minds.” Therefore, we cannot succeed.[12]

Human beings are peculiarly constructed so that each believes that he is the center of the universe. It is too easy to allow this belief to invade the realm of practical policy. Success in Iraq does not rest on Iraqi attitudes toward the United States. It rests on attitudes toward the Iraqi government. The Iraqi people can dislike America and resent the invasion, but still support their government and make the transition to democracy and stability. It is easy to imagine circumstances in which hatred of the United States diminishes and democracy perishes. For example, if coalition forces withdraw prematurely, civil war breaks out, and Shia army, police, and militia begin massacring Sunni Arabs, the victims may well come to think that the U.S. presence was really a good thing and that their demands for the coalition’s departure were unwise. Such thoughts may come too late, however, to avoid widespread conflict and killing and the collapse of the Iraqi state.

The real issue about the popularity of American forces is the degree to which their presence fuels the fighting or contains sectarian conflict. As we have already seen, the evidence that the U.S. presence is the key driving force in the insurgency is thin, and the evidence that that presence is an essential precondition for avoiding civil war is strong. Iraqi attitudes about that presence only really matter if they change this calculation in some important way. These attitudes are therefore worth monitoring, but should not be allowed to drive coalition strategy by themselves.

Above all, it is essential to keep in mind that it is not the United States that has the task of winning the “hearts and minds” of the Iraqis, but the Iraqi government. The current Iraqi government has by no means yet succeeded in that task, and it may fail to do so. But we can judge the progress of the counterinsurgency only on the basis of the Iraqi government’s success or failure in this regard, not our own.

Myth 6: Setting a timetable for withdrawal will “incentivize” the Iraqis to take responsibility for their own country.

This is an idea frequently promoted by Murtha and others who advocate an immediate or rapid withdrawal.[13] It rests on two assumptions: that the Iraqis are or shortly will be capable of taking responsibility for their country, and that they are not doing so now because they do not feel the need. If coalition forces withdraw, so the argument goes, then the Iraqis will have to sink or swim and, implicitly, they will probably swim.

Both of these assumptions are contradicted by the facts on the ground. The Iraqi government is demonstrably unable to control its state, and the Iraqi Security Forces and, still more, the Iraqi police are inadequate to fight the insurgency. Recent estimates suggest that as many as 60,000 Iraqi Security Forces troops may be fit to undertake operations entirely on their own.[14]Counter-insurgency operations to date have required between 130,000 and 160,000 American troops in addition to those 60,000 Iraqis to maintain the current unacceptably low level of security and stability in the country. Training soldiers takes time. Gaining experience in combat and in command takes time. However hard we push, the Iraqis can only go so fast. It is unlikely in the extreme that 2006 will see the deployment of enough Iraqi troops to relieve all of the coalition forces and maintain security even at the current level. The Iraqi police are, by all accounts, lagging even further behind.

Telling the Iraqis to “sink or swim” soon, therefore, is tantamount to telling them to drown. Nor have the Iraqis shown any unwillingness to fight for their country. On the contrary, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have volunteered for the most dangerous duty in their land, fighting insurgents with inadequate training and equipment. Those volunteers have frequently come under attack at recruiting stations and in their barracks, yet their numbers have not flagged. Iraqi units no longer shirk combat or run from battle. They have fought toe-to-toe with insurgents on many occasions, have been badly bloodied, and have returned for duty the next day. Iraqi government officials have persevered despite improvised explosive devices (IEDs), mortar and rocket attacks, kidnappings, and assassination attempts. It is difficult to see how it might be necessary to “incentivize” people fighting bravely in the face of greater danger to themselves and their families than Americans have faced since the Civil War.

Toward a More Reasoned Debate

There is much to criticize in the administration’s strategy in the counterinsurgency struggle in Iraq, and debate over the best course for that strategy is healthy. Honest debate about the value of continuing to try to win in Iraq is also an important part of the American democratic system and should not be shut down or attacked. But this debate can only help the formulation of sound policies if it is based on reality and focuses on the issues at hand.

The deep polarization of American politics, particularly over this issue, has distorted the discussion, however. U.S. policy in Iraq is too important to allow such distortions to persist. It is time to put away the ideological and rhetorical cudgels and begin to reason again about the best course to choose. The reestablishment of such an objective and rational discourse is the only hope of avoiding disaster.

Frederick W. Kagan is a resident scholar at AEI. AEI research assistant Melissa Wisner and AEI editor Scott R. Palmer worked with the author to edit and produce this National Security Outlook.

Notes

1. Representative John Murtha, interview by Diane Rehm, Diane Rehm Show, WAMU Radio, February 13, 2006.

2. See Frederick W. Kagan, “Blueprint for Victory,” The Weekly Standard, October 31, 2005; Frederick W. Kagan, “Fighting to Win: With the Proper Strategy, Victory in Iraq Is Far More Likely Than People Think,” The Weekly Standard, December 19, 2005; Frederick W. Kagan, “Risky Business: The Biggest Danger in Iraq Now Is Drawing Down Too Quickly,” The Weekly Standard, January 23, 2006.

3. The Bush administration’s publicly released strategy for Iraq declares: “Coalition troop levels, for example, will increase where necessary to defeat the enemy or provide additional security for key events like the referendum and elections. But troop levels will decrease over time, as Iraqis continue to take on more of the security and civilian responsibilities themselves”; and “As Iraqis take on more responsibility for security, Coalition forces will increasingly move to supporting roles in most areas. The mission of our forces will change--from conducting operations and keeping the peace, to more specialized operations targeted at the most vicious terrorists and leadership networks. As security conditions improve and as Iraqi Security Forces become increasingly capable of securing their own country, our forces will increasingly move out of the cities, reduce the number of bases from which we operate, and conduct fewer patrols and convoy missions.” President George W. Bush, National Strategy for Victory in Iraq (National Security Council, Washington, D.C., 2005), emphasis added. President Bush has repeatedly declared that “as the Iraqis stand up, we’ll stand down.” See, for example, Office of the White House Press Secretary, “Bush Media Availability with Donald Rumsfeld and Lieutenant General David Petraeus,” news release, October 5, 2005.

4. For example: “The United States will immediately redeploy--immediately redeploy. No schedule which can be changed, nothing that’s controlled by the Iraqis, this is an immediate redeployment of our American forces because they have become the target.” See John Murtha “Murtha Calls for a ‘Change in Direction’,” New York Times, November 17, 2005.

5. See Frederick W. Kagan, “Blueprint for Victory,” and “Fighting to Win,” for discussion and analysis of the military’s attitude toward this issue. Murtha repeated this line of argument in “Murtha Calls for a ‘Change in Direction’.”

6. See the excellent recent report on the nature of the insurgency: “In Their Own Words: Reading the Iraqi Insurgency,” in Middle East Report no. 50 (Washington, D.C.: International Crisis Group, 2006); and Michael Eisenstadt and Jeffrey White, “Assessing Iraq’s Sunni Arab Insurgency,” Policy Focus (Washington, D.C.: Washington Institute for Near East Policy, 2005).

7. “In Their Own Words: Reading the Iraqi Insurgency.”

8. According to “In Their Own Words”: “The insurgents’ perspective has undergone a remarkable evolution. Initially, they perceived and presented the U.S. presence as an enduring one that would be extremely difficult to dislodge; they saw their struggle as a long-term, open-ended jihad, whose success was measured by the very fact that it was taking place. That no longer is the case. Today, the prospect of an outright victory and a swift withdrawal of foreign forces has crystallised, bolstered by the U.S.’s perceived loss of legitimacy and apparent vacillation, its periodic announcements of troop redeployments, the precipitous decline in domestic support for the war and heightened calls by prominent politicians for a rapid withdrawal. When the U.S. leaves, the insurgents do not doubt that Iraq’s security forces and institutions would quickly collapse.”

9. See, for example, Senator Robert C. Byrd, “America the Peacemaker Becomes America the Warmonger,” (remarks, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C., March 11, 2003), available at http://byrd.senate.gov/speeches/byrd_speeches_2003march/byrd_speeches_2003march_list
/byrd_speeches_2003march_list_1.html (accessed February 16, 2006); and “Bob Graham on War and Peace,” On the Issues, available at http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Bob_Graham_War_+_Peace.htm (accessed February 16, 2006).

10. Nimrod Raphaeli, “‘The Sheikh of the Slaughterers: Abu Mus’ab Al-Zarqawi and the Al-Qa’ida Connection,” in Inquiry and Analysis Series no. 231 (Washington, D.C.: Middle East Media Research Institute, July 1, 2005).

11. “I want to be the first to congratulate you for what God has blessed you with in terms of fighting battle in the heart of the Islamic world, which was formerly the field for major battles in Islam’s history, and what is now the place for the greatest battle of Islam in this era,” quoted in Office of the Director of National Intelligence, “Letter from Ayman al-Zawahiri to Abu Mus’ab al-Zarqawi,” news release no. 2-05, October 11, 2005.

12. This has been the mainstay of arguments by Murtha, Kerry, Joseph Biden, and others for rapid withdrawal. John Murtha, “Murtha Calls for a ‘Change in Direction’” ; John Kerry, “Senator John Kerry Lays out Path Forward in Iraq: If Administration Acts Responsibly, We Can Stabilize Iraq and Reduce Combat Forces,” (speech, Georgetown University, Washington, D.C., October 26, 2005); Joseph R. Biden, “Time for An Iraq Timetable,” Washington Post, November 26, 2005.

13. John Murtha, “Murtha Calls for a ‘Change in Direction’” and interview on the Diane Rehm Show.

14. Kenneth M. Pollack, “A Switch in Time: A New Strategy for America in Iraq,” (analysis paper no. 7, Saban Center for Middle East Policy, Brookings Institution, Washington, D.C., 2006).
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 07:54 pm
Myth 1: The Bush administration intends to keep substantial U.S. forces in Iraq for a long time and must be pressured to bring them home quickly.

This is a straw man argument. He sets it up so as to destroy it. I have not heard a reasonable thinker express this thought.

Myth 2: The presence of U.S. forces in Iraq is the major source of the conflict there. Peace will return to Iraq as Americans leave.

Another straw man. It has been noted that our forces are a major source of the conflict there. Well,-- yes. We brought the conflict and it worsens daily. I have not heard a reasonable writer or speaker say that peace will return to Iraq if we leave.

Myth 3: The war in Iraq is a distraction from the war on terrorism.

This was true in 2003, when we attacked Iraq. This thought, or "myth," has no relevance now. One can't go back and do things right, so this is meaningless.

Myth 4: The wisdom of invading Iraq in 2003 should be an important part of the discussion about what to do in Iraq today.

This is a myth? Well, this issue can be part of a discussion about the past and analysis of foreign policy choices and decisions. It has nothing to do with the dialogue about what must happen from today forward.

Myth 5: Most Iraqis "want us out," and we have lost the battle for "hearts and minds." Therefore, we cannot succeed.

This is so ridiculous that it ought not really be answered. I think most Iraqis want only a peaceful world in which to live. They care nothing about our battle for their "hearts and minds." It is only towering arrogance that even considers such questions. We brought about chaos in Iraq. We have not brought order out of the chaos we created. Why would any Iraqi give us his heart and mind?

Myth 6: Setting a timetable for withdrawal will "incentivize" the Iraqis to take responsibility for their own country.

This is a question that can be debated among reasonable people. One can argue on either side. There are possible discussions and compromises here.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 08:40 pm
Kara,
Each and every one of these myths has been posted in this forum within the last year.

Were they expressed by "reasonable" thinkers? I don't think they were "reasonable" thinkers. But I bet that the posters of each and every one of these myths believes he/she is a "reasonable" thinker.

I believe this myth is the most popular:
Myth 5: Most Iraqis “want us out,” and we have lost the battle for “hearts and minds.” Therefore, we cannot succeed.

Kara, you posted: "This is so ridiculous ... " I agree.
0 Replies
 
Anonymouse
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 12:50 am
Kara wrote:
BBB, I read that piece in the NYTimes this morning. Scholars, thinkers, and pundits have been pointing out the likelihood of an insurgency since before the US attacked Iraq. Now, we see that these warnings were known in the corriders of power.


An insurgency is a regular and in fact, natural part or occurence in every occupation. Anytime any foreign power in the dusty pages of history has conquered another land there has always been resistance.

Kara wrote:
Anonymouse, I agree with many of your points. I have printed out the Huntington piece to read later. Interesting to note that it was published in 1993.

It is impossible to predict how the Iraq debacle will end, but surely it will go down as a tragic mistake of US foreign policy. What is happening right now in Iraq as a natural outgrowth of the enmities among ancient tribes and religions, and could not be a surprise to anyone who studied these issues deeply before the rush to war.

It is difficult to see how a thin overlay of "democracy," (a type of government in which there is a winner and a loser, and none of the tribes is willing to be the loser) can bring order and stability to the country. A federation of the three main groups, (with a small and necessary central government to deal with matters of national interest such as distribution of oil revenues, security, a standing army, etc.,) would have been a wiser choice of government for Iraq.


That is precisely my point. If the so-called "experts" and "planners" had actually studied the history of the region, the people, and the religion, all of these things would have been clear. But what does this go to show you? It shows that these so called 'elected officials' and the appointed 'think tanks' and 'experts' are nothing more than ignorant oafs. Is this what 'democracy' is all about? Socrates was right to reject democracy, and here we are lauding it as somehow the best thing since man learned how to make fire, and even more! We are trying to import it as the best model and everyone should follow America.

As far as your point about a weak federation of states, even that is an unlikely outcome. What incentive would any of these groups have to stay together in a federation? Absolutely none. They already have their own militias. As I said previously, multicultural societies cannot last or exist long without either the use of an iron fist, or general affluence to keep the populace content enough to not care.

As impossible it is to predict what will happen next in Iraq, what is probable to predict is that it won't be advantageous for America. Just one example of an unintended consequence is the current Shiite majority in Iraq aligning with the Shiites of Iran.

If that ever happens America troops will be trapped in the Middle Eastern crescent between Shiite armies on both sides.

Case in point: America destablized the Middle East. From here, it's anyones guess what will happen next, but America doesn't control the events. It only responds to them. That is the key point.

As far as Huntington, I highly recommend his essay which appeared in the 1993 issue of Foreign Affairs. Given that it is a bit dated, it is very prescient.
0 Replies
 
Anonymouse
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 12:57 am
Anytime there are reasonable objections and people pointing out the shortcomings, flaws, contradictions, and failures of the administration or the war hawks, the defenders must always term these latest objections as "myths" for it helps to deflect simple minds from inquiring.

Furthermore it helps reinforce those puny minds who must try so hard to believe. When they do get a crack in their edifice of thought by those inquiring minds asking questions and criticizing the administration, their puny minds cannot stand it. It becomes a case of truth overload and it might crash. What better way to fix this than to dub all those irrefutable objections as "Myths" and thereby reinforce the illusion of always being in the right.

And later when things do not go your way and the war ends up exactly as those pesky critics were pointing out, you can always fall back on not having to accept responsibility or admit to your thinking having shortcomings and flaws, and blame it exactly on those reasonable thinkers. By doing this you save yourself the responsibility of self-inquiry and examination, and put the burden on the shoulders of others.

And this cycle repeats.

Woe be America.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 07:23 am
Quote:
Iraq government talks in disarray
Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari has cancelled a meeting with senior political leaders, apparently to protest against a campaign to oust him.
Kurdish and Sunni leaders are unhappy with Mr Jaafari and have said they will not join a national unity government with him at its head.

This is the latest crisis to hit attempts to form a new government.

Iraq is undergoing one of its worst periods of violence, with 18 people being killed in attacks on Thursday.

At least 400 people have been killed since Wednesday, when one of Iraq's holiest Shia shrines at Samarra was bombed.

A senior UN official has blamed an "endemic" breakdown of security for the increasing bloodshed.

John Pace, until recently UN human rights chief in Iraq, told the BBC News website that 75% of the hundreds of bodies that arrive at the Baghdad mortuary each month show signs of torture or deliberate execution.

Last month, an investigation was launched into claims by the US military that an Iraqi interior ministry "death squad" has been targeting Sunni Arab Iraqis.

In other developments:


Gunmen fire on the car of one of the leaders of Iraq's main Sunni Arab alliance, Sheikh Adnan al-Dulaimi, killing a bodyguard

At least nine members of the Iraqi security forces die in an attack on a checkpoint near the northern city of Tikrit.

A bomb blast inside a minibus kills at least five people and wounds eight in Baghdad's Shia district of Sadr City

At least four people are killed and 11 wounded when a bomb explodes at a vegetable market in Zafaraniya, south-east Baghdad
'Regrettable'

Iraqi political leaders are coming under concerted pressure from world leaders who believe the failure to form a new government is partly responsible for fuelling the violence.


The Kurdish and the Sunni groups think that he is not appropriate and they cannot form a cabinet with him as he is not neutral
Mahmoud Uthman

Mr Jaafari had called the meeting to discuss ways to resolve disagreements and to counter the recent upsurge in sectarian bloodshed.

But the meeting was cancelled without the government giving a reason.

A member of one of his coalition partners, the Kurdistan Alliance, criticised the decision.

"The cancellation of this meeting is a regrettable thing because such meetings are essential under the current situation," Mahmoud Uthman said.

Mr Uthman suggested the meeting was cancelled because the leaders of the main Kurdish, Sunni Arab and secular parties had asked the Shia-led United Iraqi Alliance to withdraw Mr Jaafari's nomination for the premiership.

"The Kurdish and the Sunni groups think that he is not appropriate and they cannot form a cabinet with him as he is not neutral," he said.

Criticism

Mr Jaafari has been widely criticised for poor performance in government.

He has also come under fire for appointing Shia politicians to the main ministries in his government and for allegedly allowing the interior ministry to operate secret death squads targeting Sunni Arabs.

But, last month the United Iraqi Alliance, who won 128 out of 275 seats in December's parliamentary elections, voted to nominate Mr Jaafari for the premiership.

He beat his nearest rival, Adel Abdel Mahdi of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, by just one vote, largely due to the support of radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr.

The Kurdistan Alliance made it clear they opposed the UIA's choice, but they did not stop talks on forming a coalition government.

Mr Jaafari has called for the formation of a national unity government encompassing all of Iraq's ethnic, religious and political groups.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/4765456.stm
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 08:32 am
Bush lied, people died?

Mar 2, 2006
by Larry Elder

I recently interviewed General Georges Sada, who served as the second-highest ranked general in the Iraqi Air Force. A two-star general, he wrote a recently published book called "Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied and Survived Saddam Hussein." Here are some sound bites from that interview:

Elder: General, as you know, the president has been accused of lying about the intelligence, fabricating it, cherry-picking it, that he wanted to go to war, he really didn't believe that Saddam had WMD. It was all a big smokescreen. When you hear people accuse the president of lying about WMD, of misleading the country and the world, your reaction, Gen. Georges Sada, is what?

Sada: Let me tell you. I am really surprised how people are speaking like this and their soldiers are still in the battle. You see, a soldier when he is in battle, he wants to feel that all his nation are backing him and they are with him. And now I tell you I feel very sorry when I see some people in this country, their soldiers are in the battle, and they are discussing political things making that soldier to feel that he is there in the wrong place. That's one. Second, if there was something right had been done in this country, it was the best decision taken in the proper time, to go and liberate Iraq from an evil dictatorship who only God knows what he was going to do in the region, and maybe even to America, because that man was possessing the weapons of mass destruction and then he was with very evil intentions towards all the West, especially America.

Elder: Fifteen months before we invaded Iraq, the president began talking about what our intentions would be if Saddam would not comply with the U.N. resolutions. During those 15 months . . . did Saddam have WMD, have stockpiles of WMD, and, if so, what type?
Click to learn more...

Sada: Iraq possessed WMD and they were there, and they were chemical and biological, and nuclear weapons. He have also deals with China to make it in China this time, not in Iraq, because F-16s of Israelis have destroyed the Iraqi nuclear project, therefore, he designed a new system to have the atom bomb to be done in China, and he would only pay the money, and he did for $100 million, and $5 million were paid for down payment. I know the bank, I know the branch, and I know the accountant who did it.

Elder: What happened to the chemical and biological weapons?

Sada: The chemical and biological weapons were available in Iraq before liberating the country, but Saddam Hussein took the advantage of a natural disaster that happened in Syria when a dam was collapsed and many villages were flooded. So Saddam Hussein took that cover and declared to the world that he is going to use the civilian aircraft for an air bridge to help Syria with blankets, food and fuel oil, and other humanitarian things, but that was not true. The truth is he converted two regular passenger civilian aircraft, 747 Jumbo and 727 . . . all the weapons of mass destruction were put there by the special Republican Guards in a very secret way, and they were transported to Syria, to Damascus, by flying 56 flights to Damascus. . . . In addition . . . also a truck convoy on the ground to take whatever has to do with WMD to Syria.

Elder: I've always thought it incredible, bizarre, unbelievable, that our intelligence could have been wrong, British intelligence could have been wrong, the French, the Germans, the Russians, the U.N., the Egyptians, the Jordanians, all of whom thought he had WMD. I never felt comfortable with the idea that everybody got it wrong. . . .

Sada: Your intelligence said that Saddam Hussein had WMD. . . . I agree with them. They were there in Iraq. But they didn't find them after liberation of Iraq, because they were searching not in the right place. These things were transported by air and by ground.

Elder: General, why would Saddam, knowing we were about ready to invade, transfer WMD out of the country instead of using it on American and coalition troops?

Sada: Because he knew that the power of America to liberate the country is more than what he can do. And maybe not all WMD were ready to use then. And that's why he transported to Syria and he thought that he's going to maintain in the power as he was maintained in 1991 and then he was going to get it back again and then proceed to complete the whole project of WMD.

"Bush lied, people died"?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 08:37 am
Wait.

So Saddam's nukes are in China?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 09:26 am
Laughing
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 09:55 am
Anonymouse
Anonymouse, you are right about the ignorance of the so-called planners who don't know beans about the Muslim world. The Iraq was might have been avoided if they knew world history better.

A good example of a history lesson for them to have studied would be Tito's Yugoslavia. A strong man dictator holding traditional warring parties together by force. When he died, everything fell apart, returning to their historic trival rivalies. A bloody genocidal war resulted and again, is only being controlled by outside troops.

This strong man dictator of incompatible populations model is widespread throughout the world. One significant one is China, both ancient and modern eras. And don't forget our own revolution and Civil War.

Most of the problems today are the lingering result of colonialism. Those who don't understand the history of colonialism and it's breakup are a danger to the world in their ignorance.

BBB
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 01:20 pm
All the criticism about what we should have known is worthless absent a specific recommended alternative for coping with the terrorist malignancy that is based on what we should have known.

Please remember, the primary and sufficient reason for invading Afghanistan was stated three times by President Bush and Congress in September 2001--

(1) The night of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, the President broadcast to the nation:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Quote:
We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.


(2) Friday, September 14, 2001 Congress passed:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/terroristattack/joint-resolution_9-14.html
Quote:
The President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.


(3) Thursday, September 20, 2001, President Bush addressed the nation before a joint session of Congress:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Quote:
Tonight we are a country awakened to danger. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.


Please remember, the following year on Wednesday, October 16, 2002, Congress passed a joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq and gave these two subsequently verified, primary and sufficient reasons for doing so:
www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf
Quote:
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;


The first of these primary and sufficient reasons for invading Iraq is contained in Congress’s September 14, 2001 resolution authorizing use of "all necessary and appropriate force against those … nations or organizations … he determines … committed … the terrorist attacks … on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations … ." Consequently, the first October 16, 2002 primary and sufficient reason is contained in Congress’s September 14, 2001 resolution’s primary and sufficient reason for using all necessary and appropriate force against (e.g., invading) a nation.

So how would you have coped with the terrorist malignancy?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 01:25 pm
Again, I've encountered six alternatives advocated by my acquaintenances and posters in this forum for dealing with the future threat of the Terrorist Malignancy (TM); TM consists of all those who mass murder civilians, abet the mass murderers of civilians, or advocate the mass murder of civilians.

Here are those six alternatives:
1. Resist TM, only when it can be done without mass murdering TM;
2. Leave the mass murdering of TM to each country's domestic police and courts;
3. Leave the mass murdering of TM to an international police force such as Interpol;
4. Invade TM sanctuaries from time to time and mass murder some of them to limit the mass murdering they do;
5. Invade and remove the governments of countries that allow sanctuary to TM;
6. Invade countries that allow sanctuary to TM, mass murder their resident TM, and replace their governments with non-tyrannical democracies.

What alternative do you favor?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 03:19 pm
bbb wrote : "Anonymouse, you are right about the ignorance of the so-called planners who don't know beans about the Muslim world. The Iraq was might have been avoided if they knew world history better. "

as much as two years ago some of us had written about the problems that an invasion of iraq would bring to the western world . many books have been written by people who have lived and worked in iraq and the middle-east . those writers had an intimate knowledge about the middle-east , its people, its religion and tribal customs . unfortunately those people were ignored .

one of the reasons given for the invasion of iraq is that SH murdered many of his own people . we all know he did , but was an invasion the proper response ?
atrocities are committed all over the world every day , thousands of people die every day from war and war-like actions . people die of starvation , AIDS , you name it . many of these people live in africa , so their lives don't seem as precious .
china is being portrayed as a nation that incarcerates and kills its people , again thare is not much action on part of the western nations .
as a matter of facct , it is being said that by exposing china to western values , china will eventually come 'round (and in the meantime strong trade relations between china and the west are being encouraged - makes me wonder just a bit).
north-korea is being portrayed as a murderous nation, but is there any action against north-korea ?

imo iraq was singled out for 'obvious reasons' - and most of us know why . unfortunately the occupation didn't go as smoothly as predicted .
isn't it time to step back and re-evaluate ?
simply saying ' we must persevere ' , and 'things will get better " , is not going to do anything to improve the lives of the iraquis.

just some thoughts as i end my entry :
- how many people have died in africa over the last five years in war and war-like actions ; i don't believe anyone knows , but the estimates run in the hundreds of thousands ,
- let's look back at history a bit ,
-the partition of india in 1947 (creation of pakistan) resulted in the exodus of more than "ten million people" , more than one million people were killed (actual deathcount impossible to establish)
-in the 1971 'pakistan genocide' more than one million people were killed(again, actual deathcount impossible to establish)

now, i do not say that it follows from that SH and other dictators/generals/whatever should be given license to kill.
however it might be wise to step back and take another look at things .
is the one and only solution the kind of war/invasion/whatever now being undertaken ?

being a layperson , i don't know what the solution might be . i have opinions , that's all.
but there are people who have an intimate knowledge of the middle-east and its people . might it not be appropriate to ask for their opinion and perhaps use their "good offices" for help in this (diastrous ?)
situation ? or are we too proud to admit mistakes and too proud to ask others for their help ?

americans, canadians, brits, germans ... we all sit in the same boat - more-or-less - and the boat is leaking (i hope it's not sinking !) .

a layperson's opinion . hbg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 04:23 pm
Hamburger,
You again avoid the real issue. The USA did not invade Iraq for any different reason than it invaded Afghanistan. The USA did not remove the government of Iraq for any different reason than it removed the government of Afghanistan. The USA invaded them both and removed both their governments for the same reason.

The USA invaded them both and removed both their governments to reduce the future threat of the terrorist malignancy to the USA. The USA did not do any of these things to reduce the mass murder of Iraqi civilians or Afghanistani civilians. The USA did these things to reduce the likelihood of mass murder of American civilians.

Having removed both governments, "it follows as the night follows the day," that these removed governments had to be replaced by governments in Afghanistan and Iraq less likely to allow sanctuary to the terrorist malignancy. We chose to replace those governments with democracies designed by the people of Afghanistan and the people of Iraq, because we believed that was more likely to achieve our objective: reduce the likelihood that the terrorist malignancy would regain sanctuary in Afghanistan and Iraq. We thought a secondary benefit would be a reduced likelihood that the murder of civilians in Afghanistan and civilians in Iraq would quickly and drastically be reduced.

OK, assuming the USA was wrong in its expectations, the question then arises: what should the USA have done to reduce the likelihood that the terrorist malignancy would regain sanctuary in Afghanistan and Iraq? Or if you prefer, what should the USA have done to reduce the likelihood of mass murder of American civilians by the terrorist malignancy?

Opining critics and complainers demonstrate daily that it is they "who don't know beans" about how to solve the terrorist malignancy problem. It is they who are fools to think their criticisms and complaints, absent ideas about how to solve the terrorist malignancy problem, have any value whatsoever. Many of them appear to think that if the problem would be ignored, it would simply go away. Well exactly how many times in human history has the problem of people mass murdering civilians just gone away without counter action of some kind?

As long as we are absent a workable, alternative way to reduce the threat of the terrorist malignancy, we are stuck with the way we've got.

So, "bottom line," what do you opine the USA should have done, or now should do, instead?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 05:20 pm
Brought to you by the American Committees on Foreign Relations ACFR NewsGroup No. 677, Friday, March 3, 2006
Quote:
WSJ
DIVIDED NATION
At War With Ourselves
We're winning in Iraq. Let's not lose at home.
BY VICTOR DAVIS HANSON
Wednesday, March 1, 2006 12:01 a.m.

Last week the golden dome of the Askariya shrine in Samarra was blown apart. Sectarian riots followed, and reprisals and deaths ensued. Thugs and criminals came out of the woodwork to foment further violence. But instead of the apocalypse of an ensuing civil war, a curfew was enforced. Iraqi security forces stepped in with some success. Shaken Sunni and Shiite leaders appeared on television to urge restraint, and there appeared at least the semblance of reconciliation that may soon presage a viable coalition government.
But here at home you would have thought that our own capitol dome had exploded. Indeed, Americans more than the Iraqis needed such advice for calm to quiet our own frenzy. Almost before the golden shards of the mosque hit the pavement, pundits wrote off the war as lost--as we heard the tired metaphors of "final straw" and "camel's back" mindlessly repeated. The long-anticipated civil strife among Shiites and Sunnis, we were assured, was not merely imminent, but already well upon us. Then the great civil war sort of fizzled out; our own frenzy subsided; and now exhausted we await next week's new prescription of doom--apparently the hyped-up story of Arabs at our ports. That the Iraqi security forces are becoming bigger and better, that we have witnessed three successful elections, and that hundreds of brave American soldiers have died to get us to the brink of seeing an Iraqi government emerge was forgotten in a 24-hour news cycle.

Few observers suggested that the Samarra bombing of a holy mosque by radical Muslims might be a sign of the terrorists' desperation--killers who have not, and cannot, defeat the U.S. military. After the furor over Danish cartoons, French rioting and Iranian nuclear perfidy, the entire world is turning on radical Islam and the terrorists feel keenly this rising tide of opposition on the frontline in Iraq.

True, the Sunni Triangle, unlike southern Iraq and Kurdistan, is often inhospitable to the forces of reconstruction--but hardly lost to jihadists and militias as we are told. There is a disturbing sameness to our acrimony at home, as we recall all the links in this chain of America hysteria from the brouhaha over George Bush's flight suit to purported flushed Korans at Guantanamo Bay. Each time we are lectured that the looting, Abu Ghraib, the embalming of Uday and Qusay, the demeaning oral exam of Saddam, unarmored Humvees, inadequate body armor or the latest catastrophe has squandered our victory, the unimpressed U.S. military simply goes about what it does best--defeating the terrorists and training the Iraqi military to serve a democratic government. They stay focused in this long war, while our pundits prepare the next controversy.

The second-guessing of 2003 still daily obsesses us: We should have had better intelligence; we could have kept the Iraqi military intact; we would have been better off deploying more troops. Had our forefathers embraced such a suicidal and reactionary wartime mentality, Americans would have still torn each other apart over Valley Forge years later on the eve of Yorktown--or refought Pearl Harbor even as they steamed out to Okinawa.

There is a more disturbing element to these self-serving, always evolving pronouncements of the "my perfect war, but your disastrous peace" syndrome. Conservatives who insisted that we needed more initial troops are often the same ones who now decry that too much money has been spent in Iraq. Liberals who chant "no blood for oil" lament that we unnecessarily ratcheted up the global price of petroleum. Progressives who charge that we are imperialists also indict us for being naively idealistic in thinking democracy could take root in post-Baathist Iraq and providing aid of a magnitude not seen since the Marshall Plan. For many, Iraq is no longer a war whose prognosis is to be judged empirically. It has instead transmogrified into a powerful symbol that apparently must serve deeply held, but preconceived, beliefs--the deceptions of Mr. Bush, the folly of a neoconservative cabal, the necessary comeuppance of the American imperium, or the greed of an oil-hungry U.S.


If many are determined to see the Iraqi war as lost without a plan, it hardly seems so to 130,000 U.S. soldiers still over there. They explain to visitors that they have always had a design: defeat the Islamic terrorists; train a competent Iraqi military; and provide requisite time for a democratic Iraqi government to garner public support away from the Islamists.
We point fingers at each other; soldiers under fire point to their achievements: Largely because they fight jihadists over there, there has not been another 9/11 here. Because Saddam is gone, reform is not just confined to Iraq, but taking hold in Lebanon, Egypt and the Gulf. We hear the military is nearly ruined after conducting two wars and staying on to birth two democracies; its soldiers feel that they are more experienced and lethal, and on the verge of pulling off the nearly impossible: offering a people terrorized from nightmarish oppression something other than the false choice of dictatorship or theocracy--and making the U.S. safer for the effort.

The secretary of defense, like officers in Iraq, did not welcome the war, but felt that it needed to be fought and will be won. Soldiers and civilian planners express confidence in eventual success, but with awareness of often having only difficult and more difficult choices after Sept. 11. Put too many troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we earn the wages of imperialism, or create a costly footprint that is hard to erase, or engender a dependency among the very ones in whom we wish to ensure self-reliance. Yet deploy too few troops, and instability arises in Kabul and Baghdad, as the Islamists lose their fear of American power and turn on the vulnerable we seek to protect.

In sum, after talking to our soldiers in Iraq and our planners in Washington, what seems to me most inexplicable is the war over the war--not the purported absence of a plan, but that the more we are winning in the field, the more we are losing it at home.

Mr. Hanson is the Martin and Illie Anderson Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, and the author most recently of "A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War" (Random House, 2005).
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 06:50 pm
ican :
first let me repeat something i already stated .
thereafter, i'll add a few sentences, i'll try to keep it short .
----------------------------------------------------------
hbg wrote :
"being a layperson , i don't know what the solution might be . i have opinions , that's all.
but there are people who have an intimate knowledge of the middle-east and its people . might it not be appropriate to ask for their opinion and perhaps use their "good offices" for help in this (diastrous ?)
situation ? or are we too proud to admit mistakes and too proud to ask others for their help ? "
----------------------------------------------------------

some of my knowledge(?) has been gained by reading books about the middle-east written by former diplomats, travel writers (some books were written in the early 1930's) and scholars .
i've also watched my share of TV news and documentaries.

my understanding is that the middle-east didn't rate very highly on the radar screen of the western nations (except france ?). i also understand that the u.s. foreign service lacked personnel (experts ?) familiar with the arab and other middle-eastern languages . what has been stated by some (former) foreign service officials and scholars, is that there was insufficient expertise to understand and deal with the problems in the middle-east at an early stage .

there seem to be many people - including many americans - who think that things are not going well. perhaps these people are all wrong , but
the war is certainly not going as smoothly as predicted .

perhaps other 'experts'(i don't really like using the word - but i think we do have experts in many fields) can be brought in to help the western world gain a better understanding of the middle-east , and indeed the muslim nations . perhaps they can help bridge the gap between east and west.

i certainly would not want to see the middle-east blow up . there is too much at stake for all of the peoples of the world .

and finally :
if the west can 'make peace' with china and find mutual accomodation , should it be that difficult to come to a peaceful settlement with the nations of the middle-east ?

i hope i haven't overstayed my welcome here . hbg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 08:23 pm
Hamburger,
Obviously we are all free to express our opinions on whatever we choose, and to not express our opinions on whatever we choose. Indeed, we are free to express valuable opinions, worthless opinions, foolish opinions, wise opinions and opinions in between.

That said, I wish to again state my opinion about opinions that constitute criticisms of a policy or its implementation without contrasting that policy or its implementation with an alternate or alternatives. It is my opinion that criticism of some policy or its implementation absent criticisms of at least one alternative is worthless.

It is my opinion that there exists no policy or its implementation that is free of significant faults or limitations. So to rationally judge the validity of a criticism one must compare that criticism with criticisms of at least one alternative. That is to say, in my opinion, the validity of criticisms are relative and not absolute.

As for the USA's policy and/or implementation in Iraq, I agree it warrants criticism. To properly evaluate its criticisms, however, we must compare the USA's policy and/or implementation in Iraq with at least one alternative and its criticisms. It would be foolish to abandon or change our current policy and/or implementation if we do not think we know a better alternative with which to replace or modify the current one.

By the way, the terrorist malignancy is not a nation of the middle east or anywhere else. It is a rapidly spreading worldwide ideology or religion. In my opinion, finding a complete accommodation with China is a far easier problem to solve (as truly difficult it is) than finding an acceptable accommodation with the terrorist malignancy. Finding an accommodation with a state to not allow the terrorist malignancy a sanctuary has been difficult enough to warrant invasion of states to accomplish that, but hopefully in future that will no longer be required.


I hope there is nothing I posted that leads you to think: you have "overstayed [your] welcome here."
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Mar, 2006 09:21 pm
Quote:
The USA did not invade Iraq for any different reason than it invaded Afghanistan.


I don't know how you can continue to believe this when all of the evidence is against such a statement.

Hbg, thanks for your earlier post. I appreciate your straight-forward expression and your humility. We all have a lot to learn.
0 Replies
 
 

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