0
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 01:13 pm
ican711nm wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
does anyone read this topic or just post in it?

I do both. How about you?

nope, I never enjoyed monotony, but ican let me know if you get an idea. I'll make note of it. carry on.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 01:18 pm
Cyc,
Neither of the links you provided in your last post say anything about whether the tapes discussed in McGentrix's post are valid or frauds.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 01:49 pm
Um, I never claimed they were frauds. I haven't seen anyone making the claim that they were fraudulent tapes; just that they are immaterial to the discussion, and several Straw Men (much like your last post, actually) are neccessary to apply them to any sort of conversation about what actually took place in the lead-up to the Iraq war.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 01:51 pm
Sorry about the mis-attribution, BTW.

You see, the tapes didn't provide any new evidence at all that Saddam had WMD. Just that he wanted them. We all knew that.

A dictator of a country wanting WMD is not sufficient reason for armed invasion of the country, and Bush knew it; that's why they lied and told the American people that they HAD WMD.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 03:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Sorry about the mis-attribution, BTW.

You see, the tapes didn't provide any new evidence at all that Saddam had WMD. Just that he wanted them. We all knew that.

A dictator of a country wanting WMD is not sufficient reason for armed invasion of the country, and Bush knew it; that's why they lied and told the American people that they HAD WMD.

Cycloptichorn

While the Saddam tapes do not provide any evidence that his regime possessed ready-to-use WMD when the USA invaded Iraq, they do (if valid) provide evidence that his regime possessed the parts and ingredients to make ready-to-use WMD after 1991 and before the USA invaded Iraq. But I agree that even if true, it would not be sufficient reason for invading Iraq.

However, as I have pointed out here many times before, twenty-three whereases (i.e., reasons) were stated in the 107th Congress Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002 (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq. Subsequently, ten have been shown to be false, and 13 have been subsequently shown to be true. Of the 13 reasons subsequently shown to be true, two of those reasons, the tenth and eleventh, are each individually sufficient reasons for declaring war on Saddam's Iraq regime:

Quote:
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;


In light of these two individually sufficient reasons, the answer to the question, about whether or not President Bush lied or erred about Saddam's regime possessing ready-to-use WMD when the USA invaded Iraq, is irrelevant to the answer to the question whether or not we should have invaded Iraq in our own national interest.

We should have and did invade Iraq in our own national interest.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 03:21 pm
Right, right, I understand your fallacious position that the tenth and eleventh reasons for attacking Iraq are enough justification by themselves, despite the fact that the primary reasons for doing so have been shown to be false. I have no desire to argue them again with you.

Just pointing out that the recently released tapes don't tell us anything at all that we didn't know before, and that is why they A) don't justify any invasion, and B) aren't being considered 'news' by anyone.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 03:42 pm
The two inividually sufficient reasons, because they are individually sufficient, are the primary reasons for invading Iraq.

I think you are confusing what was touted by many as primary and what is actually primary. That Bush thought or pretended to think WMD were the primary reason is his mistake. Let's not make it ours.

Bush, not withstanding, these are both the primary reasons for invading Iraq and the individually sufficient reasons for invading Iraq:
Congress wrote:
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 03:46 pm
dyslexia wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
does anyone read this topic or just post in it?

I do both. How about you?

nope, I never enjoyed monotony, but ican let me know if you get an idea. I'll make note of it. carry on.


I've been away for a while, but I'm glad to see that folks haven't given up on being mean to Ican.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 04:09 pm
C*nts everywhere are now ashamed to publicly post to political bulletin boards . . .
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 04:14 pm
McTag wrote:

...
I've been away for a while, but I'm glad to see that folks haven't given up on being mean to Ican.

Laughing Lordy lordy, and all along I thought (and still think) they have been and are being "mean" to themselves, while trying to elevate me to a person of superior stature. That won't work, but what the hell, it's fun to watch.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 03:17 pm
Brought to you by the American Committees on Foreign Relations ACFR NewsGroup No. 676, Wednesday, March 1, 2006:
Quote:
Democracy Angst
What's the alternative to promoting freedom in the Middle East?
WSJ
Monday, February 27, 2006 12:01 a.m.

In the matter of Middle East elections, the results of which we don't always like: Anyone out there have a better idea?
We ask amid some recent wringing of hands following elections for the Palestinian legislature, in which the terrorist group Hamas won an outright majority; elections in Iraq, where voters cast their ballots along sectarian lines, and a strong showing by the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt's parliamentary elections late last year.

"For some, the promotion of democracy promises an easy resolution to the many difficult problems we face," says Illinois Congressman Henry Hyde. "But I believe that great caution is warranted here." And from the man who once gave us the "end of history," we now have the demise of neoconservatism: "Promoting democracy and modernization in the Middle East," writes Francis Fukuyama in a new book, "is not a solution to the problem of jihadist terrorism; in all likelihood it will make the short-term problem worse."

The brilliant insight here is that democratic processes don't always lead to liberal outcomes. Actually, that's not an insight: The world has had fair warning on this score at least since Adolf Hitler came to power democratically in 1933. We can be thankful, however, that the experience of Nazism did not deter successive generations of Germans from persevering with the democratic experiment.

Still, the underlying argument deserves thoughtful consideration, and it goes something like this: Contrary to the rhetoric of the Bush Administration, the taste for freedom--and the ability to exercise it responsibly--is far from universal. Culture is decisive. Liberal democracies are the product of long-term trends such as the collapse of communal loyalties, urbanization, the separation of church and state and the political empowerment of the bourgeoisie. Absent these things, say the critics, democratic and liberal institutions are built on foundations of sand and are destined to collapse.


This account more or less describes the rise of liberal democracies in the West. Yet simply because it took centuries to establish a liberal-democratic order in Europe, it does not follow that it must take centuries more to establish one in the Middle East. Japan took about 100 years to transform itself (and be transformed) from a feudal society into a modern industrial democracy. South Korea made a similar leap in about 40 years; Thailand went from quasi-military dictatorships to a genuine constitutional monarchy in about 20. As the practice of liberal democracy has spread, the time it takes nondemocratic societies to acquire that practice has diminished.
But, say the critics, Islamic and particularly Arab countries are uniquely resistant to change. Between 1981 and 2001 the number of non-Islamic countries rated "free"--that is to say, both democratic and liberal--increased by 34, according to Freedom House. By contrast the number of free Islamic countries remained constant at one, in the form of landlocked Mali. During the same period, the number of Islamic countries ranked "not free" increased by 10.

No doubt deep-seated cultural factors go some way toward explaining these statistics. But why seek abstruse explanations? In the same period when the U.S. was encouraging democratic openings in Eastern Europe, East Asia and Latin America--areas previously thought impervious to liberty, often for "cultural" reasons--it was supporting or tolerating undemocratic and illiberal regimes in the Middle East.

That period also coincided with the rise of al Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah, the first World Trade Center bombing, the bombings of U.S. embassies in East Africa and the USS Cole, the outbreak of the terrorist intifada in Israel, and September 11. Mr. Fukuyama may or may not be right that promoting democracy does not resolve the problem of terrorism in the short-term. What we know for sure is that tolerating dictatorship not only doesn't resolve the terrorist problem but actively nurtures it.


Which brings us back to the question of what American policy should be. One answer is to retreat completely in the hopes of being left alone. This is the formula recently suggested by Osama bin Laden; those who would credit it must also entrust themselves to him.
Another answer is to encourage friendly autocrats to "modernize" their countries without necessarily creating the kinds of democratic openings through which Islamic fundamentalists could come to power. This is what the U.S. has been attempting in Egypt for the past three decades, without success. A related idea is to promote liberal democratic ideals by means of "soft power"--McDonald's, Oprah, USAID, Voice of America, Britney Spears. Soft power has much to recommend it, though generally only as a complement to hard power. Absent the latter, it is powerless to defend the very people it inspires, especially when the tanks are rolling.

Then there is the supposedly failed policy of the Bush Administration. In five years, it has brought four democratic governments to power in the Middle East: by force of arms in Afghanistan and Iraq, and through highly assertive diplomacy in Lebanon and Palestine. Mr. Fukuyama tells us that "by definition, outsiders can't 'impose' democracy on a country that doesn't want it."

Leaving aside the niggling examples of Japan and Germany, exactly how are we to know that country X does not want democracy, except democratically? Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians and Lebanese have all made their democratic preferences plain in successive recent elections. And with the arguable exception of the Palestinians (arguable because Fatah was as undemocratic as Hamas), they have voted to establish considerably more liberal regimes than what existed previously.

This is not to say democracy is a cure-all. It is also not to say that the peril these democracies face, from terrorist insurrection or ethnic or religious feuding, isn't grave. Nor, finally, is it to say that the "Hitler scenario" can be excluded in a democratizing Middle East; that possibility is always present, especially among nascent democracies.

But democracy also offers the possibility of greater liberalism and greater moderation, possibilities that have been opened with the courageously pro-American governments of Hamid Karzai, Jalal Talabani and Saad Hariri. And as we stand with them, it seems to us that America's bets are better placed promoting democracies--even if some of them succumb to illiberal temptations--than acceding to dictatorships, which already have.

Or does someone have a better idea?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 04:00 pm
"Promoting Freedom in the Middle East"

Weaselly words, and meaningless in this context.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 04:09 pm
McTag wrote:
"Promoting Freedom in the Middle East"

Weaselly words, and meaningless in this context.

Why do you believe that is true?
0 Replies
 
Anonymouse
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 08:30 pm
Iraq, a lost cause. Billions wasted, thousands of lives lost, and a Middle East destabilized.

I am one of those people that do not believe this war will end well for America. As such I am for pulling out now. America has caused far too much trouble in that region and it's presence is further going to add to the destabilization. "No one predicted this" or "We weren't prepared for this", the administration chants. When were they ever ready? Whether 9/11, Katrina, or the insurgency, I have heard nothing but the same "We weren't ready or expecting this" bromide. America grossly underestimated both the history of the region, the peoples, the religion, the insurgency and did not put enough insight and judgement into its strategy and march to war.

America doesn't hold the cards, and nor does it control the situation anymore. It lost control of that situation a long time ago, when it removed Saddam and created a power vacuum. It's surprising how all this is so simple and not beyond common sense, yet the Washington hawks cannot see this, nor their blind supporters and keyboard warriors such as those that fester on this thread.

America doesn't control and hasn't controlled the situation in Iraq since then. It can only respond to events, and that is no recipe for success. Since its removal of Saddam and the power vacuum, things haven't exactly gone the way America predicted. America has been subjected to the law of unintended consequences. Who knows what we can expect? No one can predict what will or is going to happen.

Pulling out now, or later, is not going to make a difference in terms of the outcome which is loss. It is a lost cause, mark my words. It is a lost cause 1) militarily 2) politically and 3)financially. The billions that this war costs to an already overstretched American militarily, and a debt-ridden America financially and economically is not good, not to even begin to mention the lives lost on both sides to what was the worst military and political blunder because of Bush's grand visions. America is a debtor nation that is quickly losing its footing as the worlds superpower. Already the cracks are evident in the world system, with the rise of China and India, and the rebellion of the Muslim world. It no longer has an advantage over other nations. What is more, America's immense debt is financed by the Asian giants such as China and Japan.

Perhaps America will learn the hard way. You cannot march into peoples countries and expect to change thousands of years of history, culture, and tradition. You cannot expect them to have some petty elections where people have the illusion of power, and expect a land of clans, tribes, sects and blood ties to be absolved. What Iraq and recent events regarding cartoons, Iran, Hamas, and the recent events which finally made the unofficial civil war come to the fore, have all shown are two things:

1) First, They have shown that, indeed, America and the West are engaged in a clash of civilizations as Huntington wrote so eloquently in his essay and I urge everyone to read it who has not. http://www.alamut.com/subj/economics/misc/clash.html

This idea that you can imbue your own values and norms upon other cultures and peoples, and expect them to all of a sudden change miracolously, and embrace yours, is unfounded. Not all cultures are American or Western cultures. Not all cultures are ready to accept the Western 'values', their ideologies, their institutions, and their ways of life, much less their humor or taste in cartoons, nevermind democracy, which in my opinion is grossly overrated as it is. Not all cultures are ready for democracy, much less secularism, all these values so proudly cherished by the 'progressive West'. These people consider themselves as the 'progressives' in their paradigm. Who is right? Both of them. Who is wrong? None of them.

The Western world may regard religion as mere opinion, or relegated to the dust bin of history or the back pages of the newspaper, but in other parts of the world, religion is the centerpiece of life and society and has always been so. This is why the West and America particularly is not equipped to deal with the Muslim world.

2) The second thing these recent events and conflicts have shown is that where you have a multicultural society, you cannot have it held together by the gluestick of democracy, especially in a region that is not affluent, not fully developed, and doesn't have the standard of living to keep people satisfied and shut up, such as in countries like America where multiculturalism is still stable for the time being (although I wouldn't say it is if you look at the prison system or inner city schools). All societies and governments that become too large and too complex and absorb too many elements, peoples and cultures, create the seeds of their own destruction. These work in an entropic fashion. The more complex systems get, the more they move toward disorder. There are too many chaotic variables in Iraq to hold it together. America is simply one variable in the equation of chaos.

Since it's impossible to have a multicultural society like Iraq held together by a weak thread like democracy, the alternative is either a dictator or breakdown. It takes either an iron fist to rule a vast multucultral country, empire or society (with Iraq you had Saddam, in an example like the Soviet Union you had Stalin, or the example of Yugoslavia), otherwise they break apart, and decompose. The Soviet Union was an example of an overly large multicultural empire composed of many cultures that eventually brokedown. You cannot control different peoples, cultures, sects, religions and rule them under one banner, which is an important note Huntington also makes. Furthermore, I recommend The Breakdown of Nations by Leopold Kohr.

To quote Kohr:

[quote]There seems to be only one cause behind all forms of social misery: bigness. Oversimplified as this may seem, we shall find the idea more easily acceptable if we consider that bigness, or oversize, is really much more than just a social problem. It appears to be the one and only problem permeating all creation.Whenever something is wrong, something is too big. And if the body of a people becomes diseased with the fever of aggression, brutality, collectivism, or massive idiocy, it is not because it has fallen victim to bad leadership or mental derangement. It is because human beings, so charming as individuals or in small aggregations have been welded onto overconcentrated social units. That is when they begin to slide into uncontrollable catastrophe. Hence it is always bigness, and only bigness, which is the problem of existence. The problem is not to grow but to stop growing; the answer: not union but division.[/quote]

Iraq was initially itself an artificial creation by the British and as such a big and complex society for the many variables it housed. It has never been truly free, and always under the thumb of either a foreign power, or a local dictator. Now that it has been removed, the seeds of division have resurfaced and the question is not if, but when. The only ones that seem blind to this is America.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 02:55 am
Well thanks Anonymouse, that's an interesting piece, containing much that seems to me to be correct.

No solution has come out of America yet even for New Orleans, never mind Baghdad, and it is insufferably arrogant to pretend that it has. We should not be there, and we should not have bombed the Iraqis.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 07:13 am
Quote:
Shiites Told: Leave Home Or Be Killed
Sunnis Force Evictions As Iraq Tensions Grow

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, March 1, 2006; Page A01

BAGHDAD, Feb. 28 -- Salim Rashid, 34, a Shiite laborer in an overwhelmingly Sunni Arab village 20 miles north of Baghdad, received his eviction notice Friday from a man at the door with a rocket launcher.

"It's 6 p.m.," Rashid recounted the masked man saying then, as retaliatory violence between Shiites and Sunnis exploded across wide swaths of central Iraq. "We want you out of here by 8 p.m. tomorrow. If we find you here, we will kill you."



New, deadly attacks -- many of them apparently retaliatory sectarian assaults -- surged Tuesday, with 66 people killed, according to Iraqi police. The decision to lift a curfew in Baghdad on Monday appeared to have opened the way for a resumption of intense bombings, including explosions at three Shiite mosques that killed at least 19 people. Some of Tuesday's other victims included 23 people killed by a suicide bomber in Baghdad as they waited in line to buy kerosene; five Iraqi soldiers killed in a car bombing in the capital's Zayona district; and one U.S. soldier killed by small-arms fire west of the capital, authorities and news agencies said.


source
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 07:21 am
Quote:
Or does someone have a better idea?


Why don't we try staying out of everybody's else's business as an alternative? I mean who died and appointed America God? The rest of the world sure don't appreciate it and maybe if we started thinking about our country again, we could solve problems like Katrina before they become unmanageable.

Speaking of which, massive protest in India as Bush comes to visit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/28/AR2006022800610.html?nav=hcmodule
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 10:25 am
Poll: 1 of 5 troops support Bush's stay as long as needed
Le Moyne College/Zogby Poll shows just one in five troops want to heed Bush call to stay "as long as they are needed" While 58% say mission is clear, 42% say U.S. role is hazy. Plurality believes Iraqi insurgents are mostly homegrown. Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11, most don't blame Iraqi public for insurgent attacks.

Majority of troops oppose use of harsh prisoner interrogation. Plurality of troops pleased with their armor and equipment. An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows.

The poll, conducted in conjunction with Le Moyne College's Center for Peace and Global Studies, showed that 29% of the respondents, serving in various branches of the armed forces, said the U.S. should leave Iraq "immediately," while another 22% said they should leave in the next six months. Another 21% said troops should be out between six and 12 months, while 23% said they should stay "as long as they are needed."

Different branches had quite different sentiments on the question, the poll shows. While 89% of reserves and 82% of those in the National Guard said the U.S. should leave Iraq within a year, 58% of Marines think so. Seven in ten of those in the regular Army thought the U.S. should leave Iraq in the next year. Moreover, about three-quarters of those in National Guard and Reserve units favor withdrawal within six months, just 15% of Marines felt that way. About half of those in the regular Army favored withdrawal from Iraq in the next six months.

The troops have drawn different conclusions about fellow citizens back home. Asked why they think some Americans favor rapid U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, 37% of troops serving there said those Americans are unpatriotic, while 20% believe people back home don't believe a continued occupation will work. Another 16% said they believe those favoring a quick withdrawal do so because they oppose the use of the military in a pre-emptive war, while 15% said they do not believe those Americans understand the need for the U.S. troops in Iraq.

The wide-ranging poll also shows that 58% of those serving in country say the U.S. mission in Iraq is clear in their minds, while 42% said it is either somewhat or very unclear to them, that they have no understanding of it at all, or are unsure. While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly "to retaliate for Saddam's role in the 9-11 attacks," 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was "to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq."

"Ninety-three percent said that removing weapons of mass destruction is not a reason for U.S. troops being there," said Pollster John Zogby, President and CEO of Zogby International. "Instead, that initial rationale went by the wayside and, in the minds of 68% of the troops, the real mission became to remove Saddam Hussein." Just 24% said that "establishing a democracy that can be a model for the Arab World" was the main or a major reason for the war. Only small percentages see the mission there as securing oil supplies (11%) or to provide long-term bases for US troops in the region (6%).

The continuing insurgent attacks have not turned U.S. troops against the Iraqi population, the survey shows. More than 80% said they did not hold a negative view of Iraqis because of those attacks. About two in five see the insurgency as being comprised of discontented Sunnis with very few non-Iraqi helpers. "There appears to be confusion on this," Zogby said. But, he noted, less than a third think that if non-Iraqi terrorists could be prevented from crossing the border into Iraq, the insurgency would end. A majority of troops (53%) said the U.S. should double both the number of troops and bombing missions in order to control the insurgency.

The survey shows that most U.S. military personnel in-country have a clear sense of right and wrong when it comes to using banned weapons against the enemy, and in interrogation of prisoners. Four in five said they oppose the use of such internationally banned weapons as napalm and white phosphorous. And, even as more photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq surface around the world, 55% said it is not appropriate or standard military conduct to use harsh and threatening methods against insurgent prisoners in order to gain information of military value.

Three quarters of the troops had served multiple tours and had a longer exposure to the conflict: 26% were on their first tour of duty, 45% were on their second tour, and 29% were in Iraq for a third time or more.

A majority of the troops serving in Iraq said they were satisfied with the war provisions from Washington. Just 30% of troops said they think the Department of Defense has failed to provide adequate troop protections, such as body armor, munitions, and armor plating for vehicles like HumVees. Only 35% said basic civil infrastructure in Iraq, including roads, electricity, water service, and health care, has not improved over the past year. Three of every four were male respondents, with 63% under the age of 30.

The survey included 944 military respondents interviewed at several undisclosed locations throughout Iraq. The names of the specific locations and specific personnel who conducted the survey are being withheld for security purposes. Surveys were conducted face-to-face using random sampling techniques. The margin of error for the survey, conducted Jan. 18 through Feb. 14, 2006, is +/- 3.3 percentage points.

Please click the link below to view the full news release with tables:
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 10:31 am
White House Warned of Civil War in Iraq in 2003
Knight Ridder: White House Warned of Civil War in Iraq in 2003
By E&P Staff
Published: February 28, 2006 10:00 PM ET

In an article distributed by Knight Ridder's Washington bureau late Tuesday, Warren Strobel and Jonathan Landay report that U.S. intelligence agencies repeatedly warned the White House, starting in 2003, "that the insurgency in Iraq had deep local roots, was likely to worsen and could lead to civil war, according to former senior intelligence officials who helped craft the reports."

Among the warnings was a National Intelligence Estimate completed in October 2003 that concluded the insurgency was fueled by local conditions - not foreign terrorists- and drew strength from deep grievances, including the presence of U.S. troops. Its existence had not been previously disclosed to a wide public audience.

"The reports received a cool reception from Bush administration policymakers at the White House and the office of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, according to the former officials, who discussed them publicly for the first time," Landay and Strobel relate.

"President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld and others continued to describe the insurgency as a containable threat, posed mainly by former supporters of Saddam Hussein, criminals and non-Iraqi terrorists - even as the U.S. intelligence community was warning otherwise."

Robert Hutchings, the chairman of the National Intelligence Council from 2003 to 2005, told the reporters that the October 2003 study was part of a "steady stream" of dozens of intelligence reports warning Bush and his top lieutenants that the insurgency was intensifying and expanding.

"Frankly, senior officials simply weren't ready to pay attention to analysis that didn't conform to their own optimistic scenarios," Hutchings said in a telephone interview.

The office of Director of National Intelligence John Negroponte declined Tuesday to comment for the article.

The Knight Ridder article recalls Bush telling reporters in 2003: "There are some who feel like that the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is bring them on. ... We've got the force necessary to deal with the security situation."

As recently as May 2005, Cheney told a television interviewer: "I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 04:03 pm
BBB, I read that piece in the NYTimes this morning. Scholars, thinkers, and pundits have been pointing out the likelihood of an insurgency since before the US attacked Iraq. Now, we see that these warnings were known in the corriders of power.

Anonymouse, I agree with many of your points. I have printed out the Huntington piece to read later. Interesting to note that it was published in 1993.

It is impossible to predict how the Iraq debacle will end, but surely it will go down as a tragic mistake of US foreign policy. What is happening right now in Iraq as a natural outgrowth of the enmities among ancient tribes and religions, and could not be a surprise to anyone who studied these issues deeply before the rush to war.

It is difficult to see how a thin overlay of "democracy," (a type of government in which there is a winner and a loser, and none of the tribes is willing to be the loser) can bring order and stability to the country. A federation of the three main groups, (with a small and necessary central government to deal with matters of national interest such as distribution of oil revenues, security, a standing army, etc.,) would have been a wiser choice of government for Iraq.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 01/10/2025 at 02:06:04