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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2006 06:54 pm
blatham wrote:

...
First, different extremist groups often want quite different things. For example, there's far more credibility in the claim that al Qaeda want western political or corporate entities out of arab lands than what you suggest, ie world dominance.
Perhaps they do want some different things, but Hamas, Hizbollah, and al-Qaeda all say repeatedly there is at least one thing they all want.

Second, where extremist muslims wish political dominance, the 1984 analogy is a lousy one that confuses issues more than clarifies them. A very oppressive and dictatorial theocracy is the target. It's an anti-modern, tribal model. The control mechanisms described by Orwell - electronic monitoring of citizens, sophisticated information control and propaganda techniques, psychological rather than physical punishments to ensure compliance, etc - are much more likely to arise in a modern western country than in a Muslim theocracy.
The control mechanisms they will ultimately choose are unknown at this time. Right now they are all using high technology mass murder weapons and mass communication propaganda weapons to sustain their progress.

Remember, Orwell described a totalitarian regime that had already succeeded in gaining the power it required to permanently suppress its people. I am describing a terrorist work in progress toward that same outcome. That that work doesn't yet look like the accomplished objective these terrorists all seek now, is a false argument against their working toward such a future totalitarian regime.


Third, not only is it false to assert a generalized goal, it is particularly silly to suggest either that world dominance is that goal and sillier still to imply there might be any set of circumstances wherein they could achieve it. Kansas and Alsace and Tokyo and Toronto are in danger of Muslim overlords?!
None of us are in danger of such overlords, if we are successful in defeating them before they become the overlords they repeatedly declare they want to be. You appear to think it incredible they might ever succeed in accomplishing their objective. That will only be incredible if we make a concerted effort to succeed in stopping them before they succeed.

SO I SAY AGAIN

The maintenance of our security will depend on whether we are successful defending ourselves against those self-proclaimed Islamists (for example, Hezbollah, Hamas, al-Qaeda, and those that support them) who repeatedly proclaim they are murdering and will continue to murder infidels (that is, murder non-believers of Islam--murder much of humanity in general and murder many Americans in particular), or we are unsuccessful and ultimately doomed, because of our lack of success, to foist a "big brother" totalitarian government on humanity's posterity in general and American's posterity in particular.

What is happening to us today is caused by those self-proclaimed Islamists who seek totalitarian power over us by murdering as many of us as they think necessary to achieve their objective.

The question we should be debating is what is the best way to defend ourselves against those self-proclaimed Islamists who are seeking to foist a "big brother" totalitarian government on humanity's posterity in general and American's posterity in particular.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 08:55 am
Is Iraq a Lost Cause?

The New York Times carries a very grim story about Iraq on the front page today, complete with statistics on roadside bombings and blind quotes from senior Defense Department officials and military affairs experts. From start to finish the story conjures up the idea that Iraq is an absolute lost cause.

Allow me to juxtapose the doom and gloom assessment of the New York Times with a different perspective. Yesterday, I spoke on the phone with Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson in Baghdad who is currently leading a Congressional delegation visit to Iraq. I asked him directly whether the recent shift of coalition troops to Baghdad had produced any noticeable effect on security in the capital. Secretary Nicholson responded that it was his understanding that incidents in Baghdad have decreased over the last two weeks. The delegation met with General Casey and President Talabani yesterday morning, and Nicholson characterized the current mood as "guardedly optimistic."

I asked Nicholson about the ongoing level of sectarian violence. Nicholson said that it continues to be a serious problem, but that he was impressed by the level of maturity and experience displayed by senior leaders from all three communities (Shia, Sunni, and Kurd) with whom they'd met. I also asked specifically why Muqtada al-Sadr is allowed to continue operating and whether there is any plan to deal with him directly. Nicholson answered that Sadr "must be dealt with" and that while he "doesn't cooperate well with Americans" and has a large following (including a minister in the cabinet) that is problematic, Sadr is, at least to some degree, participating in the government. In other words, Sadr has to continue to be managed and brought under control through the political process.

I asked the Secretary to address the growing perception that our Iraq policy is failing and/or evolving into an "unwinnable" situation. Nicholson said he wished Americans could visit Baghdad and see things for themselves, because he felt they would "get a much different feeling" about the situation than what they're getting from the mass media at home. Nicholson added that his impression was that the feelings were more positive today than they were when he visited a year ago. I interrupted to ask if his delegation had traveled outside the Green Zone, and he responded that they had been outside the Green Zone several times during their trip and were headed to other parts of Iraq today to assess things and visit with troops.

Two final notes on the interview. I asked about the morale of our troops. Secretary Nicholson called it "outstanding" and "extraordinary." He told a quick story about a West Point lieutenant he had just visited in the main hospital in Baghdad who had been injured by an IED, resulting in his 3rd Purple Heart. He said the soldier told him how passionately he still feels about the work his unit continues to do in Iraq.

I asked whether there was any discussion about changing troop levels in the future, either up or down. Nicholson said the subject had been brought up by members of the delegation and said the answer is "it depends" but added that "it sounds like it's possible we could have troop draw downs" in the near future because coalition forces are wrapping up their training of the Iraqi Army, which is performing very well and continuing to assume more direct responsibility for territory and operations. Nicholson added, however, that the Iraqi police force, which is a critical component to establishing consistent, long-term local security, hasn't come together as quickly and much more work needs to be done bringing them up to the same level of competency as the Iraqi Army.

For more detail on current operations on the ground in Baghdad, go read Major General William Caldwell's briefing yesterday. Caldwell says they are "cautiously optimistic" about progress so far and reports that they "have a positive trend happening" in neighborhoods like Dura, Shula and Amariyah:

Quote:
Progress thus far in the three areas that we're operating in: Nine hundred tons of trash have been removed from those three neighborhoods already, with more being removed each day. Kilometer after kilometer of barriers emplaced, building what some may call the semblance of a gated community, affording them greater security with ingress and egress routes established and manned by Iraqi security forces with coalition forces in support to ensure that the people have a safe neighborhood to live in.

More than 7,000 homes and businesses have been cleared.

Nineteen mosques have been cleared. They have detained 47 persons. Nearly 300 weapons have been seized. Eight weapon caches have been found. More than 340 weapons that Iraqi citizens are authorized to have in their homes have been properly registered and remain there with them for their personal security.

Over 700 local citizens are currently employed, with more being employed each day. The economic piece, so vital to what we are all attempting to achieve here in the Baghdad area, is starting to take place. We see new stores in Dura opening each day. Residents tell us that within Dura itself just recently, two banks have opened that have not been opened for over two years, and Iraqi security forces are down there helping provide the security necessary so that they can function in a safe environment.

The district advisory council chairman is pushing members to take responsibility and to help clean up their neighborhoods. The district advisory council is working to motivate the local population to work with both the Iraqi security forces and the coalition forces operating there.

Humanitarian assistance packages have been passed to the neighborhood advisory councils for them to decide where the greatest need is within their neighborhood, and to provide that to their citizens. Medical assistance teams have been formed and will start operating in these areas later this week.

National police and coalition force commanders are engaging with the population, both in person and by radio, to explain what's going on for the operation so that people understand what is attempting to be accomplished and how they will make the difference about what they do.


Taken together, the impressions from General Caldwell and Secretary Nicholson give a much different picture than the one provided in the New York Times today - and on most days, for that matter. If even you discount Nicholson's comments for administration spin, or assume that Caldwell is putting the best possible face on the security operations in Baghdad, you're still left to confront the fact that some progress is being made. Instead of hearing about it, however, we get the relentless negativity of the media, epitomized by the Times story today. The situation in Iraq is serious, no doubt about it. But it is far from hopeless. U.S. troops, and Iraqi forces and leaders haven't given up hope that Iraq can be saved. We shouldn't either.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 10:54 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1852843,00.html
http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc813102.html

Kurds are being shelled by Turkey and Iran.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 01:39 pm
i usaually look at the BBC webpage at least once a day . they seem to give a fairly general overview of what's going on in the world .
one of yesterday's articles is called
...IRAQ VIOLENCE - FACTS AND FIGURES...
rather than giving my personal opinion , i ask you to have a look at it .
you can make up your own mind as to whether you find their reporting creditable or not .
hbg
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 02:00 pm
If I'm not mistaken nearly half of the 42,000 people killed since March 2003 have been this year, the first 7 months. And it's getting worse.

But have no fear. Cheney said that intensified attacks by the insurgents show that they are on their last desperate legs.

From June 20, 2005;
Quote:
The insurgency in Iraq is "in the last throes," Vice President Dick Cheney says, and he predicts that the fighting will end before the Bush administration leaves office.

In a wide-ranging interview Monday on CNN's "Larry King Live," Cheney cited the recent push by Iraqi forces to crack down on insurgent activity in Baghdad and reports that the most-wanted terrorist leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, had been wounded.

The vice president said he expected the war would end during President Bush's second term, which ends in 2009.

SOURCE
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 02:54 pm
FROM IBC DAILY COUNTS AS OF JULY 30, 2006
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

01/01/2003 through 12/31/2005 = 36,859; 36,859 / 36 = 1,024 per month;

01/01/2003 through 05/31/2006 = 42,884;

01/01/2003 through 06/30/2006 = 43,740;

01/01/2003 through 07/30/2006 = 44,871;

01/01/2006 through 05/31/2006 = 42,884 - 36,859 = 6,025; 6,025 / 5 = about 1,205 per month;

June 2006 = 43,740 - 42,884 = 856;

07/01/2006 through 07/30/2006 = 44,871 - 43,740 = 1131;

July 2006 = (1131 / 30) x 31 = about 1169.

ican711nm wrote:
ICAN PREDICTIONS MADE IN JUNE 2006

1,050 Question Iraqi civilians died violently in June 2006.

950 Question Iraqi civilians died violently in July 2006.

850 Question Iraqi civilians died violently in August 2006.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 03:02 pm
Quote:
Iraqi Death Toll Rose Above 3,400 in JulyAn average of more than 110 Iraqis were killed each day in July, according to the figures. The total number of civilian deaths that month, 3,438, is a 9 percent increase over the tally in June and nearly double the toll in January.

[...]
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 03:30 pm
Violent Iraqi civilian deaths, 01/01/2006 to 7/30/2006 = 44,871 - 36,859 = 8,012.

Percentage of total violent Iraqi civilian deaths since 01/01/2003 that occurred since 01/01/2006 = 100% x 8,012 / 44,871 = approximately 18%

We are engaged in a terrible war between those who pursue a live and let live society and those who pursue a dead and make dead society.

Unfortunately, too many who pursue a live and let live society do not readily accept that prerequisite to securing their pursuit, they must often suspend their pursuit to defeat those pursuing a dead and make dead society.

So there we have an apparent contradiction. To secure our pursuit of a live and let live society we must pursue making dead dead and make dead societies.

Yes, it is both a beautiful and cruel world ... alas, still another apparent contradiction.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 03:48 pm
old europe wrote:
Quote:
Iraqi Death Toll Rose Above 3,400 in July

By EDWARD WONG and DAMIEN CAVE
Published: August 15, 2006

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 15 — July appears to have been the deadliest month of the war for Iraqi civilians, according to figures from the Health Ministry and the Baghdad morgue, reinforcing criticism that the Baghdad security plan started in June by the new Iraqi government has failed.

An average of more than 110 Iraqis were killed each day in July, according to the figures. The total number of civilian deaths that month, 3,438, is a 9 percent increase over the tally in June and nearly double the toll in January. [...]

According to Britannica, in the six years 2000 to 2005, there were about 885,000 total deaths in Iraq, or about 12,294 per month. In that same period the total civilian violent deaths were about 95,000, or about 1,320 per month.

It appears to me that your reference's count of 3,438 civilian deaths in July 2006, probably mistakenly includes a high percentage of non-violent Iraqi civilian deaths.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 04:08 pm
ican711nm wrote:
It appears to me that your reference's count of 3,438 civilian deaths in July 2006, probably mistakenly includes a high percentage of non-violent Iraqi civilian deaths.


I doubt that. The number the Bagdhad morgue alone report was at 1,855 for July. The number has been widely reported (see e.g. here), and officials at the Baghdad mortuary stated that about 90% of the deaths were as a result of violence - which would be 1670 for Bagdhad alone.

The mortuary director said that "The rate of bodies [we receive is] between 50 to 70 cadavers per day - about 90% of these are dead by militant injuries or by external injuries".

Here are further numbers from the Bagdhad morgue:

Quote:
MORTUARY'S MONTHLY TOLL

January: 1,068
February: 1,110
March: 1,294
April: 1,155
May: 1,398
June: 1,500
July: 1,855


I appreciate the effort the guys at IBC are making, but I think, just from extrapolating the numbers, that the numbers they report are unrealistically low.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 06:14 pm
A recap from the tarmac: He's back.

Luckily, George has had ten days of vacation where hardly anything of importance occurred in the Middle East. He had a nice tour of the Harley Davidson plant and raised some soft money. Well rested and alert, he stood before the microphones today with Dick (Yes, he is TOO alive) and Condi at his side and said that things in Iraq were going to get better soon. This was not the same statement he's made seven hundred and thirty two times before, before he has said much better.

He's a little steamed at France because they were supposed to be sending a bunch of troops to help work out the teeny problem there on the Israeli border with Lebanon. Pakistan and Indonesian have pledged a lot of troops and I'm sure having armed forces from the two largest Islamic nations in the world on their border will be a great comfort to the folks in Haifa. Us too.

Iran has just eight days left (count'em -- eight) to provide the world with an answer regarding their nuclear pursuits. North Korea hasn't been heard from lately and was not mentioned.

There you have it.

Joe(All okie-dokie)Nation
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2006 06:28 pm
from the BBC site cited earlier :
(iraqi health ministry/unami)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41432000/gif/_41432943_baghdad1_mort_fig_203graph.gif

-The UN says "most" bodies processed in recent months have had gunshot wounds
-The morgue processed about 150 bodies a month in 2002 (Source: A Cordesman
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Aug, 2006 06:30 am
Excerpt:


Quote:
Iraqi group uses Michael Moore film to mock Bush
Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:23am ET170


By Alister Bull

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - An Iraqi militant group has produced an elaborate video of what it said were attacks on U.S. troops, in the latest example of the increasingly sophisticated propaganda war being waged by Iraqi insurgents.

"The Code of Silence" was posted on the Internet by the Rashedeen Army, thought to be a relatively small Sunni group which has produced videos in the past of attacks it claims to have carried out.

At almost an hour in length, it is the longest and most professionally made of recent postings by mainly Sunni militant and insurgent groups fighting the U.S.-backed government.

The U.S. military said earlier this week that recent intelligence indicated al Qaeda in Iraq was refining its strategy by producing propaganda and adding a political base to its violent campaign of suicide bombings.

Lifting scenes from Michael Moore's anti-war film "Fahrenheit 9/11", Rashedeen's narrator taunts President Bush in softly spoken English over graphic images of Humvees being blown up by roadside bombs, and purportedly dead U.S. troops.

It was not possible to verify when the documentary was made or the authenticity of any of the images portrayed by Rashedeen, whose name means Army of the Rightly Guided.

At one point, the documentary cuts to a scene from Moore's 2004 award-winning film where he lobbies on the steps of the U.S. Congress in Washington.


Source
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Aug, 2006 07:15 am
More problems in Iraq. The Bush administration should have seen this one coming a long time ago. As usual they did nothing but "stay the course". Next question is will this escalate into something larger.

Quote:
Kurds flee homes as Iran shells Iraq's northern frontier

Michael Howard in Qandil Mountain
Friday August 18, 2006

Guardian

Turkey and Iran have dispatched tanks, artillery and thousands of troops to their frontiers with Iraq during the past few weeks in what appears to be a coordinated effort to disrupt the activities of Kurdish rebel bases.
Scores of Kurds have fled their homes in the northern frontier region after four days of shelling by the Iranian army. Local officials said Turkey had also fired a number of shells into Iraqi territory.

Some displaced families have pitched tents in the valleys behind Qandil Mountain, which straddles Iraq's rugged borders with Turkey and Iran. They told the Guardian yesterday that at least six villages had been abandoned and one person had died following a sustained artillery barrage by Iranian forces that appeared designed to flush out guerrillas linked to the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), who have hideouts in Iraq.

Although fighting between Turkish security forces and PKK militants is nowhere near the scale of the 1980s and 90s - which accounted for the loss of more than 30,000 mostly Turkish Kurdish lives- at least 15 Turkish police officers have died in clashes. The PKK's sister party in Iran, the Kurdistan Free Life Party (Pejak), has stepped up activities against security targets in Kurdish regions. Yesterday, Kurdish media said eight Iranian troops were killed.

Rostam Judi, a PKK leader, claimed yesterday that no operations against Turkey or Iran were being launched from Iraqi territory. "We have fighters across south-eastern Turkey. Our presence in Iraq is purely for political work."

Frustrated by the reluctance of the US and the government in Baghdad to crack down on the PKK bases inside Iraq, Turkish generals have hinted they are considering a large-scale military operation across the border. They are said to be sharing intelligence about Kurdish rebel movements with their Iranian counterparts.

"We would not hesitate to take every kind of measures when our security is at stake," Abdullah Gul, the Turkish foreign minister, said last week.

There has been sporadic shelling of the region since May but officials worry that concerted military action against PKK bases in Iraq could alienate Iraqi Kurds and destabilise their self-rule region, one of few post-invasion success stories. Some analysts say Ankara and Tehran may be trying to pressure Iraq's Kurds, afraid that their de facto independent region would encourage their own Kurdish population.

Khaled Salih, the spokesman for the Kurdistan Regional Government in Irbil, said: "We condemn the shelling and urge the Iraqi government to demand the neighbours to respect our sovereignty."

Despite its support base in Turkey's impoverished south-east, the PKK is regarded by Ankara, Washington and the EU as a terrorist organisation. Mr Judi said the PKK was seeking a peaceful and democratic solution to the Kurdish issue in Turkey, and would welcome mediation from the US or Iraq's Kurdish leaders.

Last week, the Iraqi government said it had closed offices run by PKK sympathisers in Baghdad, and another office was shut by Kurdish authorities in Irbil.

The US is also to appoint a special envoy to find a solution to the PKK problem, but that may not be enough. Ilnur Chevik, editor of the New Anatolian newspaper in Ankara, said: "There is huge public pressure on the Turkish government to take action." But he doubted whether Turkish forces would mount a full-scale invasion."The build-up of troops is designed to say to the Americans and the Iraqis, the ball is in your court." Tehran was also taking advantage of the situation, he said, "to show Turkey that it was taking action against its shared enemy, while the US, Turkey's ally, has done nothing".

Meanwhile those displaced wonder when they can resume a normal life. "We know that the PKK are around here," said Abdul-Latif Mohammed, who fled the village of Lowan with his family. "But they live in the mountains. So these bombs just hurt us poor farmers."

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Aug, 2006 07:22 am
What a coincidence; just as things are getting worse in Iraq they are also getting worse in Afghanistan. Can one say the world is a much better and safer world since Bush took office?

Quote:
Afghanistan is going through its worst period of violence since the U.S.-led invasion that ousted the hard-line Taliban regime in late 2001 for hosting Osama bin Laden.

SOURCE
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Aug, 2006 08:56 pm
OK, you all! Clap hands and agree Bush is no damn good.

How many lives will that save?

Bush will remain in office until January 2000. If you play your cards right he can be totally incapacitated to the point where the USA does nothing.

After all Bush has done to promote the Culture of Death instead of the Culture of Life, his doing nothing will be a blessing to you, right?


Or, is all I've posted here pseudology? Shocked
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Aug, 2006 09:35 pm
ican711nm wrote:
OK, you all! Clap hands and agree Bush is no damn good.

How many lives will that save?

Bush will remain in office until January 2000. If you play your cards right he can be totally incapacitated to the point where the USA does nothing.

After all Bush has done to promote the Culture of Death instead of the Culture of Life, his doing nothing will be a blessing to you, right?


Or, is all I've posted here pseudology? Shocked



Look look who's talking... I guess you've noticed that your predictions that the situation would get better and better were, at best, unrealistically optimistic. And Bush's politics have, at best, done nothing to improve the situation in the Middle East.

Doing nothing, i.e. sticking to the measures that are in place was very likely a good option in 2003. Today, with ever increasing violence in Iraq, with even US generals calling the situation a civil war, and with a region that is much more fragile and destabilized than it was a mere three years ago, all those speeches about "staying the course" sound just a bit hollow.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 03:11 am
ican711nm wrote:
OK, you all! Clap hands and agree Bush is no damn good.

How many lives will that save?

:


Probably none because I think he has already killed us all. I hope that is not so, but daily such hopes dim.

The only bright glimmer is that, now that you know Bush is no damn good, you will not die a complete fool.

Joe(looking at the stars over Central Park 5:00 am)Nation
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 03:20 am
Joe Nation wrote:
(looking at the stars over Central Park 5:00 am)


Fools will pass but stars (and stripes) are forever...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2006 04:08 am
ican711nm wrote:
OK, you all! Clap hands and agree Bush is no damn good.

How many lives will that save?

Bush will remain in office until January 2000. If you play your cards right he can be totally incapacitated to the point where the USA does nothing.

After all Bush has done to promote the Culture of Death instead of the Culture of Life, his doing nothing will be a blessing to you, right?


Pretty fukking lousy argument. Bush was wrong. You continued to defend the policies. Things go to hell. Then, rather than have the integrity to admit you (and this administration and its other supporters) got SO much wrong while so many of our criticisms have proven prescient, your next intellectual/rhetorical move is to yell at us for... not supporting him.

Quote:
"Conservatives for a long time were in protective mode, wanting to emphasize the progress in Iraq to contrast what they felt was an unfair attack on the war by the Democrats and media and other sources," Rich Lowry, editor of the National Review, said in an interview. "But there's more of a sense now that things are on a downward trajectory, and more of a willingness to acknowledge it and pressure the administration to react to it."

Lowry's magazine offers a powerful example. "It is time to say it unequivocally: We are winning in Iraq," Lowry wrote in April 2005, chastising those who disagreed. This month, he published an editorial that concluded that "success in Iraq seems more out of reach than it has at any time since the initial invasion three years ago" and assailed "the administration's on-again-off-again approach to Iraq."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/19/AR2006081900568.html
0 Replies
 
 

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