xingu wrote:
...
Now read this real carefully ican. Each incident, before it can be included in the IBC database must be reported by not one but two news agencies. Only incidents are reported. Morgue reports from the different morgues around the country are not reported.
Read again; INCIDENTS not MORGUE REPORTS.
...
emphasis added by ican
Quote:IBC's Count of Civilians Killed in Iraq since 1/1/2003
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
Code
| Date
| Time
| Location
| Target
| Weapons
| Minimum
| Maximum
| Sources
||
...
k3046
| 17 May 2006
| -
| Mosul
| Muhammad Awdah and Sayyid Human, students at Mosul University
| gunfire
| 2
| 2
| REU 17 May, Al-Shar 18, May
||
x493a Notes
| 01 Jan 2006 - 31 Jan 2006
| -
| Baghdad (city and governorate)
| additional violent deaths recorded at the Baghdad city
morgue | some 90 percent by gunfire - may include some explosions but 'excludes trauma deaths from accidents'
| 649
| 653
| REU 04 May, LAT 07 May
||
x493b Notes
| 01 Feb 2006 - 28 Feb 2006
| -
| Baghdad (city and governorate)
| additional violent deaths recorded at the Baghdad city
morgue | some 90 percent by gunfire - may include some explosions but 'excludes trauma deaths from accidents'
| 691
| 715
| REU 04 May, LAT 07 May
||
x493c Notes
| 01 Mar 2006 - 31 Mar 2006
| -
| Baghdad (city and governorate)
| additional violent deaths recorded at the Baghdad city
morgue | some 90 percent by gunfire - may include some explosions but 'excludes trauma deaths from accidents'
| 684
| 763
| REU 04 May, LAT 07 May
||
x493d Notes
| 01 Apr 2006 - 30 Apr 2006
| -
| Baghdad (city and governorate)
| additional violent deaths recorded at the Baghdad city
morgue | some 90 percent by gunfire - may include some explosions but 'excludes trauma deaths from accidents'
| 569
| 645
| REU 04 May, DT 05 May
||
k3045
| 17 May 2006
| -
| Al-Mu'alimin, Baquba
| bakery, owner and police killed
| gunfire, bomb
| 4
| 4
| REU 17 May, Al-Shar 17 May
||
...
x096d
| 01 Nov 2005
| -
| Civilian deaths recorded in
hospital(s) in Madain [newly disaggregated data]
| -
| -
| 71
| 71
| AP 10 June, BG 11 June B]||[/B]
...
Note: Hospitals often have their own
morgues.
EXTRAPOLATED FROM ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA BOOKS OF THE YEAR
Demography and Vital statistics for IRAQ
YEAR POPULATION
2006 ?
2005 27,818,000
2004 25,375,000
2003 24,683,000
2002 24,002,000
2001 23,332,000
2000 22,676,000
1999 22,427,000
1998 21,722,000
1997 22,219,000
1996 21,422,000
1995 20,413,000
1994 19,869,000
1993 19,435,000
1992 18,838,000
1991 18,317,000
1990 17,754,000
1989 17,215,000
1988 16,630,000
1987 16,476,000
1986 15,946,000
1985 15,676,000
1984 15,358,000
1983 15,040,000
1982 14,722,000
1981 14,404,000
1980 14,086,000
1979 13,768,000
TOTAL
DEATHS
?
158,563
147,175
145,630
144,012
144,658
145,126
165,960
182,465
208,859
222,789
206,171
194,716
158,395
122,447
128,219
133,155
137,720
136,366
138,398
137,136
136,381
133,615
130,848
128,081
125,315
122,548
119,782
ANNUAL
NonViolent
Deaths
?
149,383
136,366
132,647
128,955
125,355
121,831
120,493
116,705
119,375
115,093
109,672
106,750
104,418
101,210
98,411
95,386
92,491
89,348
88,520
85,673
84,222
82,514
80,805
79,096
77,388
75,679
73,971
ANNUAL
Violent
Deaths
?
9,180
10,809
12,983
15,057
19,303
23,296
45,467
65,760
89,483
107,695
96,499
87,967
53,977
21,237
29,808
37,769
45,229
47,018
49,878
51,463
52,159
51,101
50,043
48,985
47,927
46,869
45,811
revel wrote:Quote:Iraqi Parliament Speaker Says Invasion and Aftermath Are the "Work of Butchers".
BAGHDAD, Iraq, July 22: The speaker of the Iraqi Parliament criticized the American government's involvement in Iraq on Saturday, likening the invasion and its consequences to "the work of butchers" and demanding that the American authorities disentangle themselves from Iraq's political affairs.
...
Someone ought to respond to this damn
pseudologist that all he has to do to get Americans to leave Iraq, is convince a majority of the Iraqi Parliament to order American's to leave.
Given such an order Americans would leave pronto. Americans would no longer feel a moral duty to stay after being ordered to leave.
The problem is a large majority of the Iraqi people do not want Americans to leave. Why? Why in the world do they not insist that
American butchers leave Iraq?
Maybe, just maybe, they think Americans are not butchers and by staying, Americans can help most of them to survive the
eitm.
eitm = evil inhuman terrorist malignancy = those who murder civilians + those who abet the murder of civilians + those who advocate the murder of civilians + those who are silent witnesses to the murder of civilians + those who allow the murderers of civilians sanctuary.
eitm have declared war on civilians worldwide; waged war on civilians worldwide; and murdered civilians worldwide.
ican711nm wrote:xingu wrote:
...
Now read this real carefully ican. Each incident, before it can be included in the IBC database must be reported by not one but two news agencies. Only incidents are reported. Morgue reports from the different morgues around the country are not reported.
Read again; INCIDENTS not MORGUE REPORTS.
...
emphasis added by ican
Quote:IBC's Count of Civilians Killed in Iraq since 1/1/2003
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
Code
| Date
| Time
| Location
| Target
| Weapons
| Minimum
| Maximum
| Sources
||
...
k3046
| 17 May 2006
| -
| Mosul
| Muhammad Awdah and Sayyid Human, students at Mosul University
| gunfire
| 2
| 2
| REU 17 May, Al-Shar 18, May
||
x493a Notes
| 01 Jan 2006 - 31 Jan 2006
| -
| Baghdad (city and governorate)
| additional violent deaths recorded at the Baghdad city
morgue | some 90 percent by gunfire - may include some explosions but 'excludes trauma deaths from accidents'
| 649
| 653
| REU 04 May, LAT 07 May
||
x493b Notes
| 01 Feb 2006 - 28 Feb 2006
| -
| Baghdad (city and governorate)
| additional violent deaths recorded at the Baghdad city
morgue | some 90 percent by gunfire - may include some explosions but 'excludes trauma deaths from accidents'
| 691
| 715
| REU 04 May, LAT 07 May
||
x493c Notes
| 01 Mar 2006 - 31 Mar 2006
| -
| Baghdad (city and governorate)
| additional violent deaths recorded at the Baghdad city
morgue | some 90 percent by gunfire - may include some explosions but 'excludes trauma deaths from accidents'
| 684
| 763
| REU 04 May, LAT 07 May
||
x493d Notes
| 01 Apr 2006 - 30 Apr 2006
| -
| Baghdad (city and governorate)
| additional violent deaths recorded at the Baghdad city
morgue | some 90 percent by gunfire - may include some explosions but 'excludes trauma deaths from accidents'
| 569
| 645
| REU 04 May, DT 05 May
||
k3045
| 17 May 2006
| -
| Al-Mu'alimin, Baquba
| bakery, owner and police killed
| gunfire, bomb
| 4
| 4
| REU 17 May, Al-Shar 17 May
||
...
x096d
| 01 Nov 2005
| -
| Civilian deaths recorded in
hospital(s) in Madain [newly disaggregated data]
| -
| -
| 71
| 71
| AP 10 June, BG 11 June B]||[/B]
...
Note: Hospitals often have their own
morgues.
One morgue ican, only one for the whole country of Iraq. What about Basra, Fallujah and Kirkuk? How many hospitals are there in Iraq and how many have morgues? Where are their reports?
This site under reports deaths in Iraq so much that one ignorant conservative tried to make us believe that the death rate in Iraq due to violence is no worse then what occurs in the U.S.
If you want anyone to believe your posts ican you had better come up with a more reliable source.
ican wrote:The problem is a large majority of the Iraqi people do not want Americans to leave. Why? Why in the world do they not insist that American butchers leave Iraq?
Where in the world did you come up with this crap. Back in spring 2004 a poll taken in Iraq showed that 57% of Iraqis wanted us out of the country.
SOURCE
In a 2006 poll for
http://www.WorldPublicOpinion.org by the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) at the University of Maryland, 87% of Iraqis want a timeline that will get us out of their country.
A whopping 47% of the population approve of attacks on American forces. Ya, they really love us in Iraq.
Seventy six percent of the people of Iraq do not believe America will leave if they are asked. They believe America wants a permanent presence in Iraq.
SOURCE
Another of Bush's legacies that will cost us dearly in the future.
Quote:Supporting the Troops
The yearly cost of unemployment benefits for disabled military personnel has ballooned to $3 billion. Is the U.S. prepared for the oncoming wave of Iraq war vets?
By Martha Brant
Newsweek
June 18, 2006
June 14, 2006 - Ron Dickey wanted to make the Army his career. When he joined the service at 19 he traded Rienzi, Miss.?-a town with fewer than 500 residents?-for a world of opportunities. Ambitious, Dickey became a member of the elite special forces and fought in the first Persian Gulf War. But when he got back from the Middle East, he developed extensive skin abrasions. He still doesn't know if he was exposed to something during the war, but his health began to deteriorate quickly. In addition to the mysterious skin disease, he came down with diabetes and he already had some hearing loss. In 1993, he opted not to re-enlist.
Dickey first tried his hand at police work back home in Mississippi. But his health wasn't up to it. So he went on the job market only to find that with a resume strong on weaponry but weak on Microsoft Word he was bouncing from one low-paying job to another. "There were a thousand options to collect a [benefits] check," says Dickey, now 35. "But I wanted to be a functioning member of society. I had to come up with a new way to be productive."
Many former soldiers are finding it difficult to return to 9-to-5 America. The number of disabled vets from all wars deemed "unemployable" by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs tripled from 71,000 to 220,000 between 1996 and 2005. Unemployable vets receive about $2,393 a month, with the total cost of the program now $3.1 billion a year (up from $857 million in 1996). That staggering price tag doesn't include the bulk of recent vets from Iraq and Afghanistan who will enter the system over the next few decades.
Many of those now receiving benefits aren't able to work because of their disabilities, and a majority are over age 60. But some vets, like Ron Dickey, could and would work under the right circumstances. And, while it is easier than ever for disabled vets to go online and get information about receiving unemployment benefits, the options for those who want to get a job are more complicated.
In a much-anticipated report issued last month, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) criticized the VA's unemployablity benefits for having unclear guidelines and weak follow-up. They found the big jump in those receiving benefits particularly troubling at a time when "advances in medicine and technology, along with labor market changes, have provided greater opportunity for people with disabilities to seek and maintain employment." Even the VA concurred with the criticism. "The VA should look at the program as an opportunity to return people to work if they can," says Cristina Chaplain, a GAO director and author of the May 30 report?-the first major review of veterans' disability benefits in 50 years. "The demands of a new generation of veterans are going to be incredible, and the VA needs to get a good system in place."
It's difficult to gauge how much of an impact the new generation of war vets will have on the VA's already strained system. More than 150,000 military personnel are now serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the total number of troops who've rotated through either country at some point since September 2001 will definitely be much higher. About 18,000 military personnel have already been wounded in both conflicts. And many injuries like posttraumatic stress disorder may not surface until well after their homecomings.
No one wants to deprive injured vets of hard-earned benefits, but budgets are tight and the already overwhelming cost of "unemployable" benefits will only rise. The government, and increasingly the private sector, are starting to look for new ways to get vets jobs. "The system is broken," says Paul Rieckhoff, head of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, which advocates more and better job training and reintegration before returning vets wind up unemployed. "The VA needs to evolve to the new needs of the new war. They should be worried. A wave is coming."
Ken Smith of the Military Order of the Purple Heart Service Foundation has come up with an innovative way to get ahead of the wave. He is willing to bet that at least 10 percent of those currently "unemployable" vets could work if given a chance. So last year, the foundation started a training program for disabled vets that would teach them how to be customer-service agents, emergency operators and telemarketers?-anything they can do by phone, preferably from home. The popular military Web site Military.com ran one paragraph about the training program and the foundation's phones wouldn't stop ringing. "Our position was overrun," says Smith, speaking like the Vietnam combat vet he is. He too was injured in that war but went on to a fruitful career in high tech.
Already, the training is changing people's lives. One man chosen to be among the first 20 trainees had been severely burned on his face. "He can walk, he can talk, he just scares the bejeezus out of everyone," says Smith, who is running the new Veterans' Business Training Center. After several uncomfortable job experiences with co-workers, he decided he needed to work at home. He went through the foundation's training and now works for the IT help desk of an Arizona company. He's never even met his employers face to face.
The foundation is currently selecting another 100 disabled vets for remote training with the goal of training 600 this year. But Smith has set his sights even higher. "I'm going after government contracts," he says. Legally, veterans get preference in federal hiring. But quotas for disabled vets are rarely filled. "Even if you look at all the laws and preferences, less than 1 percent are being hired [for government contracts]," explains Greg Bresser, executive director of the foundation. That's partly because many vets don't want to risk losing their benefits by trying out a job. So the foundation is trying to convince Congress not to touch veterans' disability rating and benefits (100 percent disabled vets make about $28,000 a year tax-free) for one year while he or she tries out working. "Otherwise you penalize the veteran for even trying," Smith says.
Meanwhile, the foundation hopes to play on private employers' patriotism. "Wouldn't you rather give your credit-card number to an American vet?" Bresser asks. He realizes that American salaries make vets uncompetitive with overseas workers. So he and the foundation have been pushing for tax credits for companies to make up the difference in salary.
For Ron Dickey, getting a job was about a lot more than the paycheck. He happened upon the Purple Heart training program online and was in the first wave of trainees. During his 15 weeks of remote training, Dickey not only learned how to type 30 words a minute but also how to use call-center computer software. This week, he starts a new job making $18.50 an hour at a large mortgage company in Virginia. He'll soon have health benefits, too. "If you go into the military you have to have some kind of drive," Dickey says. "You want to be part of the world." Helping American vets find gainful employment can be a big step to toward keeping that desire alive.
URL:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13319120/site/newsweek/
I was watching a senate committee late last night on the issue of a budget for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. None in the DoD is willing to commit information on how much these wars will eventually cost the American taxpayers, but insist on annual budgets that have proven to be wasteful and full of fraud.
And yet, the congress continues to fund these wasteful wars.
They're driving this country down the toilet.
The dumbing down of America.
Quote:William O. Beeman
"The Journalism/Think Tank Merry-Go-Round
And the Dilemma of the Academic Public Intellectual"
' [I want to address] the question of the sad, sad state of American academics in policy formation in the United States today. Think tanks, where no one ever has to go through peer review before publishing the most questionable material, are in the ascendancy. Real scholars are derided as the academy is openly attacked by these quasi-intellectual bodies. No wonder! If the think-tankers' shoddy methods and ideological biases were subject to the scrutiny they deserve, 90% of the garbage that is self-published by their house organs and pushed by their publicity machinery would never see the light of day.
It is so sad now that governmental bodies are no longer calling on academic experts for public testimony in even the most crucial matters where they have unique knowledge. On no subject is this more true than in the Middle East area. If you are not in a think tank in Washington, apparently your expertise matters not at all. Never mind that that the think tank denizens were never in the region, don't know the languages, and never did any research in their lives. If their ideology is in line with the White House, that is good enough.
The media bears a great deal of responsibility in this matter. Lazy, news-cycle driven and subject to the pressure of ideology and publicity flackers, it is so much easier to just call the think tank down the street, or a PR firm like Benador Associates where someone is on call and already in suit and tie, or skirted suit to get to the studio within the next 20 minutes, than to spend the extra half-hour trying to locate an ISDN feed in . . . Minneapolis or Austin to get the best possible expertise on a subject at hand. For the print media a quote--any quote--is often good enough to anchor a story. No time to wait for someone to call back after a seminar! If the reporter can't get the quotable phrase on the first phone call, its on to the next, or once again, to the on-call quotables at the think-tank around the corner.
Even when someone with real expertise can be located, the media vitiates the message by making a fetish of "balance"--an odd feature of American public discourse, documented by my colleague Deborah Tannen in her classic book, The Argument Culture. This means that whatever the subject, a pro and con side must be represented--even if one of the positions is absurd, or representative of an extreme fringe opinion. This results in match-ups like Paul Krugman debating Bill O'Reilly on economic matters and other such ludicrous pairings. This situation has created careers for people like Anne Coulter, David Frum and Jonah Goldberg, who otherwise know very little--but they are reliable as "cons" (pun intended) on virtually any topic that requires an expansion of intellect. No wonder the public doesn't know which way is up.
Sadly, the academy has reacted badly to this state of affairs--not by encouraging its members to shine the light on the slime and mold generated by these propaganda machines, but by fomenting retreat into its own dark little corner where it can be safe and "uncontroversial." The better not to run afoul of its more vocal and ideologically driven alumni and trustees, who believe along with Bill O'Reilly that all knowledge is just opinion anyway, so why not just tell the professoriate what they should be teaching, and what positions they should be espousing? Writing for the public is not only unrewarded by the academy, it is absolutely detrimental to academic careers. Thus fine scholars who do decide to speak out are hit both ways--both by the ideological hacks for whom their truths are uncomfortable, and by their own institutions who see their public activities as controversial and undignified.
Contrast this with the situation in Japan, France, Brazil--in fact, anywhere else in the world--where academics are welcomed and respected in the field of public discourse, and move readily in and out of positions of public responsibility. Likewise, scholars of distinction, such as the incomparable Eric Rouleau, are prized and well-compensated members of the fourth estate.
Despite these stringencies, those of us who are tenured at institutions of higher learning have a special responsibility--a sacred duty--to speak out at every turn to defend free inquiry, and solid knowledge. We are privileged to be able to have careers in research, writing and teaching, and are in debt to society for this. We have the obligation as patriotic citizens and seekers of truth to use, as Juan has consistently, the fruits of our research and knowledge to inform not just the dozen or so colleagues who share our academic sub-specialization, but the public who is hungry for this material, and in the current intellectual desert in America, who desperately needs it. '
William O. Beeman
Professor, Anthropology; and Theatre, Speech and Dance
Brown University
xingu, The British learned the hard way that their colonizations were not appreciated by the countries they commanded by force. Their reversal of policy have shown that independence is what solves internal problems. That they again involved themselves in Iraq is a big mystery; they still haven't learned from their own experience.
And the chicken hawks that got us involved in Iraq never learned anything from Vietnam.
no they didnt
they shyied away from vietnam
they skulk in the dark recesses, giving orders to murder.
Quote:BAGHDAD, Iraq - American troops are stepping up operations in the Baghdad area to combat death squads and dampen down the violence threatening the new unity government, a U.S. general said Monday.
Two more U.S. soldiers were killed Monday, the U.S. military said.
U.S. and Iraqi forces conducted 19 operations last week targeting death squads, U.S. spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell told reporters. All but two were in Baghdad, he said.
"Clearly Baghdad is the center that everybody is fighting for," Caldwell said. "We will do whatever it takes to bring security to Baghdad."
Security in the Iraqi capital is expected to figure prominently in talks Tuesday in Washington between President Bush and Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.
Many of the death squads are believed to be associated with either Sunni or Shiite armed groups, targeting members of the rival sect as part of a struggle for power between the country's two major religious communities.
The killings accelerated after the Feb. 22 bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra and have steadily increased despite establishment of al-Maliki's national unity government last May.
On Monday, the city morgue in Kut, a mostly Shiite city southeast of Baghdad, reported receiving 19 bodies ?- blindfolded and some showing signs of torture. They were believed to be victims of sectarian death squads, city officials said.
U.S. officials have avoided identifying death squads and militias by sect, preferring instead to refer to them as criminals and thugs.
"We have not seen the death squads associated with any one particular sect," Caldwell said. "But they're not part of a larger organization that we can see."
He said "very extremist elements" from both sectarian communities were "using murder and assassination as their means by which to further their personal goals."
Many Iraqis believe they are operated by Shiite militias and Sunni extremist groups, some of which have ties to political parties. Combatting death squads runs the risk of armed confrontation with militias such as the Mahdi Army of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, whose movement is part of al-Maliki's government.
Last Saturday, U.S. and Iraqi troops fought a three-hour gunbattle with al-Sadr's militiamen in Musayyib. Fifteen militiamen and one Iraqi soldier were killed. The week before, British soldiers arrested al-Sadr's militia commander in the Basra area of southern Iraq.
The rise in sectarian violence has shifted attention away from the Sunni-led insurgency most active in western Anbar province to Baghdad, a city of 6 million people with large communities of Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds. The two soldiers killed Monday were from the 1st Armored Division and were killed in Anbar, the U.S. military said.
The Baghdad area recorded an average of 34 major bombings and shootings for the week ending July 13, the U.S. military said. That was up 40 percent from the daily average of 24 registered between June 14 and July 13.
U.S. officials believe control of Baghdad ?- the political, cultural, transport and economic hub of the country ?- will determine the future of Iraq. But the city's religiously mixed communities have become the focus of sectarian violence.
Iraq's army and police, which are heavily Shiite, have had trouble winning the trust of residents of majority Sunni neighborhoods.
As a result, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., has said more U.S. troops may take to the streets to bolster Iraqi forces, especially in mostly Sunni areas such as Dora, Amariya and Ghazaliyah.
However, that could lead to more U.S. casualties. As U.S. troops gradually pulled back and handed over security to the Iraqis, deaths among Iraqi soldiers and police have been rising while American losses ebbed.
Figures compiled by The Associated Press show that between Jan. 1 and July 24, at least 933 Iraqi soldiers and police were killed compared with 382 U.S. deaths for the same period. At least 33 American service members have died this month in Iraq ?- half the number in June and May.
Baghdad was relatively calm Monday.
Five civilians were killed and four others were wounded Monday evening when mortar shells crashed into a southern Baghdad neighborhood, police said.
Elsewhere, gunmen killed four men selling construction materials in Ramadi, west of Baghdad, police said. A policeman in Mosul and a Youth Ministry employee in Baghdad were also gunned down in drive-by shootings.
source
I hope Ican not going drag out those ridiculous numbers which mean nothing to nobody but him and maybe a few who feel compelled to fake it.
xingu, your poll numbers regarding whether or not the iraqi people want the USA to leave Iraq are pseudology (i.e., lying or falsifying; lies or falsities). If they weren't pseudology, the Iraqi government would have asked us to leave. No such request by the Iraq governent has been made yet.
City morgue counts and hospital morgue counts are being included by IBC. I merely gave you a few examples to rebut your ignorant claim that the IBC was not using morgue counts.
eitm = evil inhuman terrorist malignancy = those who murder civilians + those who abet the murder of civilians + those who advocate the murder of civilians + those who are silent witnesses to the murder of civilians + those who allow the murderers of civilians sanctuary.
eitm have declared war on civilians worldwide; waged war on civilians worldwide; and murdered civilians worldwide.
eitm are not civilians, but dead ones are being counted by the UN as violent Iraq civilian deaths.
So, you think the UN is a more reliable source for violent Iraq civilian deaths counts than IBC--despite the UN's past criminal behavior and despite the UN's proven erroneous, 2003, 100,000 violent Iraq civilian death count.
ican, You're the only "pseudology" on this thread. Your constant repetition of words and abbreviations are not being read by anybody on a2k. Didn't your momma tell you that some day you'll be all alone, because of your pseudology?
ican wrote:xingu, your poll numbers regarding whether or not the iraqi people want the USA to leave Iraq are pseudology (i.e., lying or falsifying; lies or falsities). If they weren't pseudology, the Iraqi government would have asked us to leave. No such request by the Iraq governent has been made yet.
ican, your funny. Every time something comes out, like this poll, that disagrees with your ideology you claim it's false. You can't present any evidence to show it's false. You can't present any evidence to back up your statements. You just declare them false, as if your the expert and have the final say on what is right or wrong.
I might point out the the leader of the Iraqi government doesn't always speak for the people anymore than Bush speaks for the American people when he vetoed the stem cell bill. Also a majority of Americans want us
out of Iraq but, as you already know, Bush doesn't listen to polls. Nor do the leaders of the Iraqi government.
Then, ican, there's the question of what if the Iraqi government did ask us to leave. Would we do it or would we say, "Screw you, we'll leave when we believe it's necessary." A majority of Iraqis believe we won't leave if asked.
Do you think the Bush administration will leave, if asked, leaving in place an Iran friendly Shiite government in Iraq?
All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. -- George Orwell