Abortion

mysteryman wrote:

Sorry,
If a woman can kill a baby she doesnt want,even 5 seconds before it is born,and call that an abortion,then a man should be able to refuse to pay support for a child he neither wanted or knew about.

I would like you to show us an existing state law that allows a woman to choose to "kill a baby 5 seconds before it is born."

As far as your "I told her to get an abortion" defense to nullify your legal obligation to pay child support for an existing child, take your defense to court or ask your state legislature to pass a law that says fathers need not support their child if they told the mother to get an abortion. I'm sure the state legislators throughout the nation are willing to jump on your band wagon and pick up the tab to support your children in order to relieve you of that legal responsibility. Good luck with your lobbying efforts.

Debra_Law,

You know that I respect the heck out of you, but I am very confused on this one issue right now. If the woman has the right to terminate the pregnancy without the man's input why would the man have to pay child support if he did not want the child? In a case of a man wanting the child and a woman not wanting it, the woman gets to decide, right? I am having trouble reconciling this.

Debra_Law wrote:

mysteryman wrote:

Sorry,
If a woman can kill a baby she doesnt want,even 5 seconds before it is born,and call that an abortion,then a man should be able to refuse to pay support for a child he neither wanted or knew about.

I would like you to show us an existing state law that allows a woman to choose to "kill a baby 5 seconds before it is born."

As far as your "I told her to get an abortion" defense to nullify your legal obligation to pay child support for an existing child, take your defense to court or ask your state legislature to pass a law that says fathers need not support their child if they told the mother to get an abortion. I'm sure the state legislators throughout the nation are willing to jump on your band wagon and pick up the tab to support your children in order to relieve you of that legal responsibility. Good luck with your lobbying efforts.

I didnt say there was such a law.
But,YOU and Cyclo both have said that till it is born it is only a POTENTIAL life.
Now,a zygote is also potential life,so where do you draw the line?

So,if it is killed 5 seconds before birth,using your statement and logic,then it was aborted,not murdered.

mysteryman wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Until birth, it isn't a person; it's a seed of a person.

A seed isn't the same thing as a tree, sorry.

And honestly, for a party that supports killing people so off-handedly, you guys sure get up in arms about people who aren't even people yet.

Cycloptichorn

So,5 seconds before it is born,a fetus doesnt qualify as a person and can be destroyed?

Five seconds before birth, a fetus does not qualify as a person. It qualifies as potential life. That doesn't mean it can be destroyed.

Life is the interval of time between birth and death. Prior to birth, what you have is the potential for life and nothing more. Once a fetus is viable--capable of living outside the womb--then the state has a compelling interest in protecting POTENTIAL LIFE and may prohibit abortion EXCEPT when necessary to save the life or health of the mother. Why the exception? Because we value EXISTING LIFE far more than we value POTENTIAL LIFE.

I have no kids,and if a woman walks up to me today and says her kid is mine,then I will ask...
1.Why wasnt I told when the child was born?
2.Why are you here now?

If a woman waits several years to tell a man he is a father,then she has given up her right to claim child support.
I am not saying that a man shouldnt dupport his kids,but if you have my child and dont tell me,thats not my problem.Support it yourself.

Now you have changed your story. Before, you said you should not have to support a child if it was your choice to have it aborted and the woman didn't comply with your choice. I called this your "I told her to get an abortion," defense to a child support action.

Now you say you don't think you should have to support a child if the woman waits YEARS after the child's birth to inform you of the child's existence.

You don't really know what your position is, do you? Can you imagine any reason why a woman might not want to tell a man that she is pregnant with his child?


When I told my fiance that I was pregnant and he demanded that I get an abortion contrary to my wishes, he yelled and yelled and yelled at me for hours while I cried and cried and cried as the result of that emotional and verbal abuse and I miscarried that very night. I eventually forgave him, but I didn't forget. Years later--when I became pregnant again--I didn't tell him. Can you imagine why I didn't tell him?

Debra_Law,

You know that I respect the heck out of you, but I am very confused on this one issue right now. If the woman has the right to terminate the pregnancy without the man's input why would the man have to pay child support if he did not want the child? In a case of a man wanting the child and a woman not wanting it, the woman gets to decide, right? I am having trouble reconciling this.

If the state has the power to trump a woman's procreative decisions in order to serve a state interest, then women as an entire class of people have lost the very essence of liberty.

Quote:

Now you have changed your story. Before, you said you should not have to support a child if it was your choice to have it aborted and the woman didn't comply with your choice. I called this your "I told her to get an abortion," defense to a child support action.

Now you say you don't think you should have to support a child if the woman waits YEARS after the child's birth to inform you of the child's existence.

You don't really know what your position is, do you? Can you imagine any reason why a woman might not want to tell a man that she is pregnant with his child?


When I told my fiance that I was pregnant and he demanded that I get an abortion contrary to my wishes, he yelled and yelled and yelled at me for hours while I cried and cried and cried as the result of that emotional and verbal abuse and I miscarried that very night. I eventually forgave him, but I didn't forget. Years later--when I became pregnant again--I didn't tell him. Can you imagine why I didn't tell him?

My position is clear.
If you have a child,and I dont want it,then you are on your own.
You made the choice to have it,so you bear ALL the costs.

If you have a child and dont tell the father for years,then you have given up ALL rights to child support.
Again,you made the choice,you deal with it.

IF however,I want the child and you dont,then my wishes should be taken into account when you are thinking about an abortion.

You didnt tell him because you CHOSE not to,not because of anything he did.
So,since you didnt tell him,why should he pay for it?
Are you sure it was his?
Could that be why you didnt tell him?
Were you waiting to surprise him?

There are many reasons why you didnt tell him,and ALL of them mean that if he chose not to support it,he shouldnt have to.

(BTW,my question about it being his was meant as an example of why you wouldnt tell him,it was not aimed at you personally)

What I hear a lot coming from your side are presumptions about a woman's motivation to have an abortion. Convenience, because she doesn't want it, because she's irresponsible, because she doesn't consider the child, etc...

FreeDuck, I stated that the abortions I was talking about were the ones of convenience. I thought I had made that pretty clear. I am talking about the women that have more than one abortion for convenience sake because they didn't take enough responsibility in the first place to keep from getting pregnant.

Do you know anyone who has ever had or considered an abortion? Do you know for a fact that the baby (or potential baby) is in fact the last consideration? Do you not think that the reason that most people "don't want" kids (aside from those who don't want them ever) is because they don't feel that the situation would allow them to raise a child properly? And that some women earn their living in very physical jobs which they could not do if they weighed an extra 35 pounds and had back trouble?

You say "If she didn't want the baby she shouldn't have gotten pregnant." Do you say the same for these poor bastards who get stuck with child support even though they wanted the woman to have an abortion?