Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 04:47 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, there's your opinion, and then there's your rather sexist double standard. If you had the opinion that women belonged to their husbands and as such shouldn't be allowed to vote or own property, would I have to respect that? As such, I don't respect your opinion regarding the rights and responsibilities of men vs. women in the case of pregnancy.


Not only does MA display a sexist double standard, she is in favor of giving a man absolute VETO power over the woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy. In fact, MA has given her blessing to those men who would break the law in order to exercise dominion and control over a woman's body.

The Supreme Court has firmly rejected the ill-conceived notion that a man should have a right to be notified let alone have a say in a woman's decision:

Quote:
Section 3209 of Pennsylvania's abortion law provides, except in cases of medical emergency, that no physician shall perform an abortion on a married woman without receiving a signed statement from the woman that she has notified her spouse that she is about to undergo an abortion. The woman has the option of providing an alternative signed statement certifying that her husband is not the man who impregnated her; that her husband could not be located; that the pregnancy is the result of spousal sexual assault which she has reported; or that the woman believes that notifying her husband will cause him or someone else to inflict bodily injury upon her. A physician who performs an abortion on a married woman without receiving the appropriate signed statement will have his or her license revoked, and is liable to the husband for damages. . . .

The American Medical Association (AMA) has published a summary of the recent research in this field, which indicates that, in an average 12-month period in this country, approximately two million women are the victims of severe assaults by their male partners. In a 1985 survey, women reported that nearly one of every eight husbands had assaulted their wives during the past year. The AMA views these figures as "marked underestimates," because the nature of these incidents discourages women from reporting them, and because surveys typically exclude the very poor, those who do not speak English well, and women who are homeless or in institutions or hospitals when the survey is conducted.

According to the AMA, [r]esearchers on family violence agree that the true incidence of partner violence is probably double the above estimates; or four million severely assaulted women per year. Studies suggest that from one-fifth to one-third of all women will be physically assaulted by a partner or ex-partner during their lifetime. AMA Council on Scientific Affairs, Violence Against Women 7 (1991) (emphasis in original). Thus, on an average day in the United States, nearly 11,000 women are severely assaulted by their male partners. Many of these incidents involve sexual assault. Id., at 3-4; Shields & Hanneke, Battered Wives' Reactions to Marital Rape, in The Dark Side of Families: Current Family Violence Research 131, 144 (D. Finkelhor, R. Gelles, G. Hataling, & M. Straus eds. 1983). In families where wifebeating takes place, moreover, child abuse is often present as well. Violence Against Women, supra, at 12.

Other studies fill in the rest of this troubling picture. Physical violence is only the most visible form of abuse. Psychological abuse, particularly forced social and economic isolation of women, is also common. L. Walker, The Battered [505 U.S. 833, 892] Woman Syndrome 27-28 (1984). Many victims of domestic violence remain with their abusers, perhaps because they perceive no superior alternative. Herbert, Silver, & Ellard, Coping with an Abusive Relationship: I. How and Why do Women Stay?, 53 J. Marriage & the Family 311 (1991). Many abused women who find temporary refuge in shelters return to their husbands, in large part because they have no other source of income. Aguirre, Why Do They Return? Abused Wives in Shelters, 30 J.Nat.Assn. of Social Workers 350, 352 (1985). Returning to one's abuser can be dangerous. Recent Federal Bureau of Investigation statistics disclose that 8.8 percent of all homicide victims in the United States are killed by their spouses. Mercy & Saltzman, Fatal Violence Among Spouses in the United States, 1976-85, 79 Am.J. Public Health 595 (1989). Thirty percent of female homicide victims are killed by their male partners. Domestic Violence: Terrorism in the Home, Hearing before the Subcommittee on Children, Family, Drugs and Alcoholism of the Senate Committee on Labor and Human Resources, 101st Cong., 2d Sess., 3 (1990).

The limited research that has been conducted with respect to notifying one's husband about an abortion, although involving samples too small to be representative, also supports the District Court's findings of fact. The vast majority of women notify their male partners of their decision to obtain an abortion. In many cases in which married women do not notify their husbands, the pregnancy is the result of an extramarital affair. Where the husband is the father, the primary reason women do not notify their husbands is that the husband and wife are experiencing marital difficulties, often accompanied by incidents of violence. Ryan & Plutzer, When Married Women Have Abortions: Spousal Notification and Marital Interaction, 51 J. Marriage & the Family 41, 44 (1989).

This information and the District Court's findings reinforce what common sense would suggest. In well-functioning [505 U.S. 833, 893] marriages, spouses discuss important intimate decisions such as whether to bear a child. But there are millions of women in this country who are the victims of regular physical and psychological abuse at the hands of their husbands. Should these women become pregnant, they may have very good reasons for not wishing to inform their husbands of their decision to obtain an abortion. Many may have justifiable fears of physical abuse, but may be no less fearful of the consequences of reporting prior abuse to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Many may have a reasonable fear that notifying their husbands will provoke further instances of child abuse; these women are not exempt from 3209's notification requirement.

Many may fear devastating forms of psychological abuse from their husbands, including verbal harassment, threats of future violence, the destruction of possessions, physical confinement to the home, the withdrawal of financial support, or the disclosure of the abortion to family and friends. These methods of psychological abuse may act as even more of a deterrent to notification than the possibility of physical violence, but women who are the victims of the abuse are not exempt from 3209's notification requirement. And many women who are pregnant as a result of sexual assaults by their husbands will be unable to avail themselves of the exception for spousal sexual assault, 3209(b)(3), because the exception requires that the woman have notified law enforcement authorities within 90 days of the assault, and her husband will be notified of her report once an investigation begins, 3128(c). If anything in this field is certain, it is that victims of spousal sexual assault are extremely reluctant to report the abuse to the government; hence, a great many spousal rape victims will not be exempt from the notification requirement imposed by 3209.

The spousal notification requirement is thus likely to prevent a significant number of women from obtaining an abortion. It does not merely make abortions a little more difficult or expensive to obtain; for many women, it will impose a substantial obstacle. We must not blind ourselves to the fact that the significant number of women who fear for their safety and the safety of their children are likely to be deterred from procuring an abortion as surely as if the Commonwealth had outlawed abortion in all cases.

Respondents attempt to avoid the conclusion that 3209 is invalid by pointing out that it imposes almost no burden at all for the vast majority of women seeking abortions. They begin by noting that only about 20 percent of the women who obtain abortions are married. They then note that, of these women, about 95 percent notify their husbands of their own volition. Thus, respondents argue, the effects of 3209 are felt by only one percent of the women who obtain abortions. Respondents argue that, since some of these women will be able to notify their husbands without adverse consequences or will qualify for one of the exceptions, the statute affects fewer than one percent of women seeking abortions. For this reason, it is asserted, the statute cannot be invalid on its face. See Brief for Respondents 83-86. We disagree with respondents' basic method of analysis.

The analysis does not end with the one percent of women upon whom the statute operates; it begins there. Legislation is measured for consistency with the Constitution by its impact on those whose conduct it affects. For example, we would not say that a law which requires a newspaper to print a candidate's reply to an unfavorable editorial is valid on its face because most newspapers would adopt the policy even absent the law. See Miami Herald Publishing Co. v. Tornillo, 418 U.S. 241 (1974). The proper focus of constitutional inquiry is the group for whom the law is a restriction, not the group for whom the law is irrelevant.

Respondents' argument itself gives implicit recognition to this principle at one of its critical points. Respondents speak of the one percent of women seeking abortions who are married and would choose not to notify their husbands of their plans. By selecting as the controlling class women [505 U.S. 833, 895] who wish to obtain abortions, rather than all women or all pregnant women, respondents, in effect, concede that 3209 must be judged by reference to those for whom it is an actual, rather than an irrelevant, restriction. Of course, as we have said, 3209's real target is narrower even than the class of women seeking abortions identified by the State: it is married women seeking abortions who do not wish to notify their husbands of their intentions and who do not qualify for one of the statutory exceptions to the notice requirement. The unfortunate yet persisting conditions we document above will mean that, in a large fraction of the cases in which 3209 is relevant, it will operate as a substantial obstacle to a woman's choice to undergo an abortion. It is an undue burden, and therefore invalid.

This conclusion is in no way inconsistent with our decisions upholding parental notification or consent requirements. See, e.g., Akron II, 497 U.S., at 510 -519; Bellotti v. Baird, 443 U.S. 622 (1979) (Bellotti II); Planned Parenthood of Central Mo. v. Danforth, 428 U.S., at 74 . Those enactments, and our judgment that they are constitutional, are based on the quite reasonable assumption that minors will benefit from consultation with their parents and that children will often not realize that their parents have their best interests at heart. We cannot adopt a parallel assumption about adult women.

We recognize that a husband has a deep and proper concern and interest . . . in his wife's pregnancy and in the growth and development of the fetus she is carrying. Danforth, supra, at 69. With regard to the children he has fathered and raised, the Court has recognized his "cognizable and substantial" interest in their custody. Stanley v. Illinois, 405 U.S. 645, 651 -652 (1972); see also Quilloin v. Walcott, 434 U.S. 246 (1978); Caban v. Mohammed, 441 U.S. 380 (1979); Lehr v. Robertson, 463 U.S. 248 (1983). If this case concerned a State's ability to require the mother to notify the father before taking some action with respect to a living child raised by both, therefore, it would be reasonable to conclude, as a general matter, that the father's interest in the welfare of the child and the mother's interest are equal.

Before birth, however, the issue takes on a very different cast. It is an inescapable biological fact that state regulation with respect to the child a woman is carrying will have a far greater impact on the mother's liberty than on the father's. The effect of state regulation on a woman's protected liberty is doubly deserving of scrutiny in such a case, as the State has touched not only upon the private sphere of the family, but upon the very bodily integrity of the pregnant woman. Cf. Cruzan v. Director, Mo. Dept. of Health, 497 U.S., at 281 . The Court has held that, when the wife and the husband disagree on this decision, the view of only one of the two marriage partners can prevail. Inasmuch as it is the woman who physically bears the child and who is the more directly and immediately affected by the pregnancy, as between the two, the balance weighs in her favor. Danforth, supra, at 71.

This conclusion rests upon the basic nature of marriage and the nature of our Constitution: [T]he marital couple is not an independent entity with a mind and heart of its own, but an association of two individuals, each with a separate intellectual and emotional makeup. If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child. Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S., at 453 (emphasis in original). The Constitution protects individuals, men and women alike, from unjustified state interference, even when that interference is enacted into law for the benefit of their spouses.

There was a time, not so long ago, when a different understanding of the family and of the Constitution prevailed. In Bradwell v. State, 16 Wall. 130 (1873), three Members of this [505 U.S. 833, 897] Court reaffirmed the common law principle that a woman had no legal existence separate from her husband, who was regarded as her head and representative in the social state; and, notwithstanding some recent modifications of this civil status, many of the special rules of law flowing from and dependent upon this cardinal principle still exist in full force in most States. Id., at 141 (Bradley, J., joined by Swayne and Field, JJ., concurring in judgment). Only one generation has passed since this Court observed that "woman is still regarded as the center of home and family life," with attendant "special responsibilities" that precluded full and independent legal status under the Constitution. Hoyt v. Florida, 368 U.S. 57, 62 (1961). These views, of course, are no longer consistent with our understanding of the family, the individual, or the Constitution.

In keeping with our rejection of the common law understanding of a woman's role within the family, the Court held in Danforth that the Constitution does not permit a State to require a married woman to obtain her husband's consent before undergoing an abortion. 428 U.S., at 69 . The principles that guided the Court in Danforth should be our guides today. For the great many women who are victims of abuse inflicted by their husbands, or whose children are the victims of such abuse, a spousal notice requirement enables the husband to wield an effective veto over his wife's decision. Whether the prospect of notification itself deters such women from seeking abortions, or whether the husband, through physical force or psychological pressure or economic coercion, prevents his wife from obtaining an abortion until it is too late, the notice requirement will often be tantamount to the veto found unconstitutional in Danforth. The women most affected by this law - those who most reasonably fear the consequences of notifying their husbands that they are pregnant - are in the gravest danger. [505 U.S. 833, 898]

The husband's interest in the life of the child his wife is carrying does not permit the State to empower him with this troubling degree of authority over his wife. The contrary view leads to consequences reminiscent of the common law. A husband has no enforceable right to require a wife to advise him before she exercises her personal choices. If a husband's interest in the potential life of the child outweighs a wife's liberty, the State could require a married woman to notify her husband before she uses a post-fertilization contraceptive. Perhaps next in line would be a statute requiring pregnant married women to notify their husbands before engaging in conduct causing risks to the fetus. After all, if the husband's interest in the fetus' safety is a sufficient predicate for state regulation, the State could reasonably conclude that pregnant wives should notify their husbands before drinking alcohol or smoking. Perhaps married women should notify their husbands before using contraceptives or before undergoing any type of surgery that may have complications affecting the husband's interest in his wife's reproductive organs. And if a husband's interest justifies notice in any of these cases, one might reasonably argue that it justifies exactly what the Danforth Court held it did not justify - a requirement of the husband's consent as well. A State may not give to a man the kind of dominion over his wife that parents exercise over their children.

Section 3209 embodies a view of marriage consonant with the common law status of married women, but repugnant to our present understanding of marriage and of the nature of the rights secured by the Constitution. Women do not lose their constitutionally protected liberty when they marry. The Constitution protects all individuals, male or female, married or unmarried, from the abuse of governmental power, even where that power is employed for the supposed benefit of a member of the individual's family. These considerations confirm our conclusion that 3209 is invalid. [505 U.S. 833, 899]


http://laws.findlaw.com/us/505/833.html
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 04:52 pm
Debra_Law,

Are you for real? I have a right to my opinion. I have a right to voice those opinions. You have a right to disagree with me. You have a right to voice that disagreement.

Now, let's just drop it, ok? You have your rights, I have my rights. Yours are not any more important than mine and mine aren't any more important than yours. Good grief. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:02 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
John Creasy seems willing to stand up to what he feels is his responsibility in this hypothetical situation. I see nothing wrong with that.


Momma Angel wrote:
I think you are all being pretty hard on John Creasy. I admire his stance. I wish more men in this world would step up the way he is willing to. He is concerned about the life of what would be his child. What's wrong with that? He would love his child and protect it even at the expense of breaking the law to keep his child safe. And anyone would find fault with that?


Momma Angel wrote:
I have no idea as to how John Creasy would accomplish this. He didn't say. I did not automatically think he was going to do some horrendous crime as you seem to think. Don't you think the thing to do would be to ask him just how far he would go? I admire the fact that he would care so much for his child. If you find fault with that, then I am sorry that you do.



Momma Angel:

Are YOU for real?

Many people did ask him how he would accomplish his claim that he would NOT ALLOW any woman to abort HIS baby.

He stated he would do whatever it takes--even break the law--because his principles as a MAN were more important than the law.

YOU admired his stance.

YOU did not find fault with his willingness to BREAK THE LAW. YOU questioned anyone who WOULD find fault with that. So . . . Don't try to throw this one back on me.

Don't you think it was UP TO YOU to determine how far he would take his horrendous law breaking before YOU gave him your admiration and stamp of approval? How much law breaking is acceptable to YOU before you find fault?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:11 pm
Debra_Law,

Did you even read my post in response to that? I explained what I admired and I also said I did not say that I approved of his breaking the law. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:18 pm
John Creasy wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
I didn't see the part where John Creasy called DTOM selfish. I will have to go back and check that out.




LOOK UP. Be observant. Look past your own self-serving agenda and take notice that DTOM highlighted Neanderthal Greasy's words in RED: "If you stopped obsessing about men trying to control you, you might see how incredibly selfish you sound."

As an EXERCISE in "seeing" how selfish someone sounds, DTOM then SHOWED us time after time after time where the Neanderthal Greasy SELFISHLY asserted his dominion and control over the fruit of the woman's womb: I, I, I, I, I, won't allow, won't allow, won't allow, mine, mine, mine, my, my, my, my, my.

NOW, HERE'S THE POINT: As an exercise in "seeing how incredibly selfish" someone sounds, Neanderthal Greasy wins the "incredibly selfish" distinction by a landslide. However, the obvious import of DTOM's post clearly soared over you narrowly-wired mind that works to willfully blind you to the things you refuse to see.

HENCE your statement: "I didn't see . . . "

Oh I know, any man that refuses to be feminized by you twinkletoed freaks is a neandrathal. I'm actually flattered that femi boy spent all that time on my quotes. You can turn it all around on me if you want, but the fact remains, Any woman that insists on getting an abortion against the will of the father is incredibly selfish.

The difference between my selfishness, is that I'm looking out for the baby. Who is the woman looking out for?? Oh that's right, her lazy f*cking self. If I want the baby then it just comes down to her not wanting to take responsibility and carry the child for nine months. And by the way, that fruit of her womb wouldn't exist without MY nectar.

Is that neanderthal enough for you???



Obviously, any woman who got to know you first would be a fool to sleep with you. We haven't known you long, but your sexism is evident. Any suggestion that you and other men like you ought to respect the rights of a woman is viewed as an attempt to "feminize" you. Apparently, any association with feminity is obviously offensive to you as you puff out your chest and espouse your principles as a MAN. Under the circumstances, any reference to your neaderthal tendencies was an understatement.

If a woman was foolish enough to sleep with you and (GASP) found herself pregnant, her options would be 1) raise a child with a sexist, controlling, neanderthal jerk of a man who dictates what he will NOT ALLOW in accordance with his principles as a MAN--a MAN who is willing to do what it takes to get his way, the law be damned; or 2) terminate the pregnancy and run as fast as she can away from you.

I wonder which option a sane woman would choose?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:31 pm
Debra_Law,

Why do you have to make it about sexism? Can't you understand that John Creasy's main concern here is the child? Remember the child? The one that doesn't get to make any decisions? The one that is caught in the middle of something?

If you do not view the fetus as a child then I can understand you not quite getting his position. You are coming from two totally different positions here.

I really don't think mud slinging is the way to accomplish anything, do you? It's just a discussion. It's just a discussion! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:34 pm
Debra,

Remember when I said if it were me, and JC was the daddy, that little sucker would be flushing down the toilet as we speak??? Now you know why!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:38 pm
Anon,

Why do find it so necessary to mock? What makes you so superior to everyone that does not agree with you?
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:40 pm
Stand up Momma, way up on your tippy toes!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:41 pm
John Creasy wrote:
femi boy


johhhhhnnnn ! johnnny boy ! good ta see ya ! Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:42 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Debra_Law,

Why do you have to make it about sexism? Can't you understand that John Creasy's main concern here is the child? Remember the child? The one that doesn't get to make any decisions? The one that is caught in the middle of something?

If you do not view the fetus as a child then I can understand you not quite getting his position. You are coming from two totally different positions here.

I really don't think mud slinging is the way to accomplish anything, do you? It's just a discussion. It's just a discussion! Laughing



You keep insisting that YOU have a RIGHT to YOUR OPINION.

Yet, you fail to respect MY RIGHT to have MY OPINION.

IT IS MY OPINION that your admiration for and failure to find fault with John Greasy's principles as a MAN and his "law be damned" stance is CREEPY. I explained why. If you didn't see my explanations--which you often fail to see people's explanations--go back and read.

Mud Slinging? I think not. Just a difference of opinion in our ongoing discussion. Is this where we kiss?

Where's Calamity Jane? I need some guidance on the proper use of the kissing emoticon. Smile
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:42 pm
Anon,

I don't understand you. I have tried but I just don't. God bless you.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:45 pm
Debra-Law,

You are more than entitled to your opinion. I have no problem with that at all. I am just not one given to calling others names and I frankly find it hard to understand why you would be. You are obviously a very educated woman and I have always like reading your posts because they are so informative. I don't like anyone calling anyone names, Debra. It's nothing personal about you. I just don't like anyone doing it. Not John Creasy, not you, not me, not Anon, no one.

Truce? Laughing
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 05:59 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Debra_Law,

Did you even read my post in response to that? I explained what I admired and I also said I did not say that I approved of his breaking the law
. Rolling Eyes


Deny it all you want, but we have your written record. You did indeed state your approval of John Greasy's principle as a MAN that he would break the law to prevent a woman from aborting HIS baby:

Quote:
I think you are all being pretty hard on John Creasy. I admire his stance. I wish more men in this world would step up the way he is willing to. He is concerned about the life of what would be his child. What's wrong with that? He would love his child and protect it even at the expense of breaking the law to keep his child safe. And anyone would find fault with that?


http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1797590#1797590

Again, even though YOU might not find fault with Neanderthal Greasy's law-breaking stance, I do.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 06:04 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Anon,

I don't understand you. I have tried but I just don't. God bless you.


I know you don't Momma ... it's ok! God bless you too!

Anon
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 06:08 pm
Debra_Law,

I will try this one more time. Yes, that is what I said. What I mean by that is the fact that he would love his child so much that he would break the law. He would love his child so much that he would risk his freedom and/or life for his child. That is what I admire. What I admire is the stance that he
[/b]HE WOULD LOVE THE CHILD THAT MUCH! Not that he would break the law, but THAT HE WOULD LOVE THE CHILD THAT MUCH![/size]
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 06:20 pm
Anon-Voter wrote:
Debra,

Remember when I said if it were me, and JC was the daddy, that little sucker would be flushing down the toilet as we speak??? Now you know why!!

Anon


Yes. I remember your post. I also remember his extremely violent response:

Quote:
You'd be right behind it.


http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1797373#1797373


This is the guy who had just previously said: "You clowns think it's funny, but trust me, if that is MY baby in the womb, I would do whatever is necessary to stop her from killing it, laws be damned."

How much violence, laws be damned, do you suppose it would take to flush a grown woman's body down a toilet?

It is the known existence of violence and the threat of violence against women that the Supreme Court contemplated when it ruled that men (especially men like Greasy) have no right to be notified when a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 06:26 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Anon-Voter wrote:
Debra,

Remember when I said if it were me, and JC was the daddy, that little sucker would be flushing down the toilet as we speak??? Now you know why!!

Anon


Yes. I remember your post. I also remember his extremely violent response:

Quote:
You'd be right behind it.


http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1797373#1797373


This is the guy who had just previously said: "You clowns think it's funny, but trust me, if that is MY baby in the womb, I would do whatever is necessary to stop her from killing it, laws be damned."

How much violence, laws be damned, do you suppose it would take to flush a grown woman's body down a toilet?

It is the known existence of violence and the threat of violence against women that the Supreme Court contemplated when it ruled that men (especially men like Greasy) have no right to be notified when a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy.


http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/frusty.gif
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 06:29 pm
Re: Abortion
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Do you condemn every wrong you come upon Joe? I doubt it.

I condemn something in the very act of calling it "wrong," just as I praise something in the very act of calling it "right." If you don't, then what is to distinguish between right and wrong?

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Then the moral standards of the majority of Americans must be confused and self-contradictory, because the problem is intractable.

The majority of Americans are idiots, so I am not surprised that their moral standards are confused and self-contradictory. I would expect no less from them.

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
The debate would not be raging for decades otherwise. How fortunate for you that your mind and heart are so firm and clear on this difficult issue.

And how strange that you would want to be counted among the vast ranks of the confused.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jan, 2006 06:32 pm
Momma Angel wrote:

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/frusty.gif


You're the red part, right??

Anon
0 Replies
 
 

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