Why the left cannot cheer this liberation

Tartarin, you msiunderstood the message of Mr. Apisa. He does not claim mere returning of the occupied territories to the Arabs, he claims that Israel must not be located where it is located now. This is not the same as claim for establishment of the Palestinian State in the West Bank of Jordan and in Gaza strip (the latter approach is accepted by the way by the Israeli Prime Minister).

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steissd

Did you PM Frank or are you his alias?

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steissd wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I also am a staunch supporter of Israel, although I wish everyone would finally realize that there is no way Israel can continue to exist where it is right now...

And where should it exist? In the Moon? In the Antarctic? In the parallel world? On the bottom of the Pacific Ocean? I do not see any non-occupies chunks of land anywhere in the world where Israel could have been transferred to.

They managed to find the chunk they have now -- and they could have found others. If anything, Jews are resourceful.

I think the spot they chose was the worst possible spot -- but because it is the ancestral home of the Jews, I doubt they would have chosen anywhere else.

There is no easy solution to the problem-- and the only one I can come up with is to move the state of Israel here to the United States.

Somehow, we should be able to do it. I think the Jews would benefit from the move -- and I think the United States would benefit also - even if only by freeing us from trying to help Israel fit where it simply will not fit.

Either that, or accept that more than likely there will always be the kind of savagery and barbarity going on that is going on right now.

I just want to see this country out of the dispute.

I do not want this country taking sides the way we have for the last few decades.

If the Israelis and their neighbors cannot get along like reasonable people, they should fight to the death if necessary -- and leave the rest of the world out of it.

But I want us out of it.

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ouija board, perhaps

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au1929 wrote:

Frank
Quote:

Good for you. I wouldn't expect anything else. I also am a staunch supporter of Israel, although I wish everyone would finally realize that there is no way Israel can continue to exist where it is right now

Do you re read what to write or is it out of sight out of mind. It is fine for Israel to exist but not in this world. Stop beating around the bush. As far as you are concerned Israel has no right to exist. It is time to be honest and come clean, you can say it there are others on a2k that will agree with you.

I am being honest -- and if you are too ignorant or too emotionally involved to see that -- you really should be doing something else.

Just as I did not earlier say that Sharon is dictating policy and Bush is following it -- I also did not say that Israel should exist, but not in this world.

Try to be honest yourself before advising others on that account.

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steissd wrote:

Tartarin, you msiunderstood the message of Mr. Apisa. He does not claim mere returning of the occupied territories to the Arabs, he claims that Israel must not be located where it is located now. This is not the same as claim for establishment of the Palestinian State in the West Bank of Jordan and in Gaza strip (the latter approach is accepted by the way by the Israeli Prime Minister).

Perhaps you misunderstand me too, Steissd.

I never said that Israel CANNOT be located where it is now -- just that if it stays located there, it is going to continue to face the kinds of disruptions it faces now.

The savagery and barbarity ON BOTH SIDES will not abate.

Keep in mind that there were LOTS of people who thought the idea of an Israel was a huge mistake. They may have been right. It is not working out well -- and I do not see any hope that it will ever get any better.

I hate to say this, but maybe the fatalist fundamentalist Christians are right. Maybe the return of the Jews to that area will presage the destruction of mankind. Maybe this endless squabbling will ignite the final fire.

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au1929 wrote:

Frank

Quote:
Try to reason this stuff out!

Frank I need not as you say have to reason this stuff out. I can readily see who you are and where you are coming from. It has been made painfully clear more than once. I would say that further discussion of the matter would be futile and would in all likelihood end up in appropriate discourse.

If you have a charge to make against me, au, make it. This pussyfooting around with suggestions and hints really sucks.

There was a time when I would never even enter a discussion that included anything about Israel, because you can almost count on someone at some point insinuating that any remarks you make that are not backing up Israel 100% are motivated by anti-Jew; anti-Semitism; or anti-Israel.

I might have bought into that nonsense at one time, but now I see it for what it is -- baloney.

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I must admit that Steissd makes me dislike Israel even more than I already do, but I'd sure settle for ceasing anything more in this country other than a polite glance at Israel now and then. Certainly no more aid. Certainly no military support of any kind.

Frank, you're right. Baloney of the most convenient kind.

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Quote:

They managed to find the chunk they have now -- and they could have found others. If anything, Jews are resourceful.

They must be they managed to be scapegoated and massacacred in Europe for 1000 years. That certainly is resourceful.

Quote:

I hate to say this, but maybe the fatalist fundamentalist Christians are right. Maybe the return of the Jews to that area will presage the destruction of mankind. Maybe this endless squabbling will ignite the final fire.

I would take my chances with those that support me than those who do not. I should note that the final fire you speak about may just burn your ass as well.

From another of your posts.
By now everyone should have come to the realization that there will never be peace in that area so long as the state of Israel exists there -- and Arabs live there also.
Where should it exist? You can't have it both ways.

Quote:

The idea of two states living side by side -- Israeli and Palestinian -- is absurd. That solution will breed more problems than it solves.

These are your statements in support of Israel. I would hate to see your thoughts about something you did not support.

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Well, au, apparently your mind is so closed you really cannot see some of the things you are saying you cannot see.

I stand by my statement that there will never be peace in that area so long as the state of Israel exists there and there are Arabs there also.

I also stand by my statement that two nations, Israel and Palestine, side by side is probably worse than what is happening now.

Apparently you are more optimistic than I am on this issue, because you apparently think there will be peace between Israel and its neighbors.

I think you are wrong. Only time will bear one of us out.

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Frank
Hope springs eternal. I agree with you only time will tell.
It depends on ones point of view. Is the glass half empty or half full? You are right about discussions on this subject. It is much better to stay away from them. I too usually do not indulge however every once a while my button gets pushed and here we are. Understand I see Israel as a refuge for the Jewish people. I am not so blinded by today's morality to believe that another holocaust is not a distinct possibility. 1000 years of history cannot be so easily forgotten or discounted.
Peace.

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Au -- Have you read Hannah Arendt?

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Tartarin
No! Have no Idea who she is. But I do remember my mother telling me how as a little girl she spent 3 days in a cellar while the Cossacks rampaged killing every Jew they could find. Year circa 1900. Luckily her family emigrated to the US shortly after that. For as long as she lived there was nothing this great land of ours could do wrong. Even in the height of the depression. It was the best there was and is. I was brought up with that belief which seems to be presently out of fashion.

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Quote:

For well over two decades, Hannah Arendt was one of the nation's most prominent intellectuals. ... [She was]the first woman to become a full professor (of politics) at Princeton University ...

You may read more at
Jewish Virtual Library

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Walter
Thank you for the heads up.
au

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She got a little tired of the holocaust.

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The statement shouldn't be, "Why the left cannot cheer this liberation," but "Why the right cannot cheer this liberation." See the point? c.i.

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Yessir. I think you've hit the nail on the head -- or perhaps on the thumb of the Right!

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au1929 wrote:

Frank
Hope springs eternal. Peace.

Despite everything I've said, I will be rooting against my pessimism on the issue - which I guess means I'll be rooting for you..

I would like to see Israel exist where it is -- in harmony with its neighbors -- with peace and brotherhood prevailing.

I don't pray -- but I can certainly hope that is the way things work out.

In fact, while I'm hoping -- I might as well hope that all the rest of humanity finally becomes the intelligent species we sometimes dare to presume we are.

Shalom back at ya, au.

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Tartarin wrote:

I must admit that Steissd makes me dislike Israel even more than I already do...

Well, in such a case nothing much can be done. If someone's attitudes toward anything (in this case, State of Israel) are dictated by genetically determined type of metabolism, no rational discussion may change his/her opinion. It is futile, just like attempts to persuade a gay man to become straight, or to convince a wolf to be vegetarian...

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Why the left cannot cheer this liberation

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