Why the left cannot cheer this liberation

Israel has nothing to do with it? Huh?

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it dont rain in Indianapolis in the summer time

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Lightwizard wrote:

I'm quietly laughing as it looks to me like we'll end up with a Muslin theocracy in Iraq not in accord with the U.S. and certainly not in accord with Dubya.

I would not say that the Islamic republic has been established in Iraq; but even if it had, I wonder how can the American citizen be happy with this and laugh at failure of his own country...

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Tartarin:

I just did the same doubletake as you! Duh, I think Israel may have a bit to do with our policies. And I learned that without having to delve too far in my reading. It is simply out there.

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au

Israel has a right to pursue whatever legal (or legitimate) means it can to secure itself.

American Jews certainly are free to back Israel in any of those things.

One thing that Israel can do -- is to attempt to influence what the United States does in the world -- especially in areas that Israelis feel are of benefit to them.

American Jews are free to attempt to influence our government to do things that they feel benefit Jews in general -- and Israel in particular.

Most indicatins are that they all are doing all of those things.

For you to suggest that "Israel has nothing to do with it ism, I think, disingenuous."

And your comments suggest to me that you might think there is something wrong with their Jews and Israel doing what they obviously are doing.

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This is a conclusion that can be made from postings of several members: it is possible to conclude from these that pro-Israeli lobby is promoting something detrimental to the USA. Meanwhile, the interests of both Israel, USA and all the Western countries are virtually the same: to have in the Middle East pragmatic and predictable regimes that can be easily dealt with (by dealing with I mean just regular international trade, and not any real or hypothetical military operations); regimes that do not have any irrational ambitions that have nothing in common with their national interests.

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Not laughing at my country but at my leaders, such as they are.

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The Rev. Franklin Graham, son of the Rev. Mr. Billy Graham, is -- if I recall correctly -- going to Iraq on a missionary effort. Can someone please let me know if this is something I imagined?

Question

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Tartarin, dyslexia,Frank et al
What are you suggesting that Israel [ Sharon] issues orders and instructions to Bush. Bush does what he wants whether they coincide with the wishes of Israel or not. At the moment they do but I am just waiting for other shoe to drop when he demands implementation of his road map whether Israel agrees or not.
I know that Isreal is not the flavor of the month with the liberals however, suggesting that Bush is following the instructions of [ Sharon] is ludicrous.

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au1929 wrote:

Tartarin, dyslexia,Frank et al
What are you suggesting that Israel [ Sharon] issues orders and instructions to Bush. Bush does what he wants whether they coincide with the wishes of Israel or not. At the moment they do but I am just waiting for other shoe to drop when he demands implementation of his road map whether Israel agrees or not.
I know that Isreal is not the flavor of the month with the liberals however, suggesting that Bush is following the instructions of [ Sharon] is ludicrous.

I'll tell you what is ludicrous, au -- pretending that we all have been saying that Sharon is demanding things of Bush and that Bush is following his instructions.

Israel -- and American Jews -- ARE INFLUENCING AMERICAN POLICY -- and in a way that I consider inappropriate.

As I said up above -- they have a right to do what they are doing.

But you are suggesting that they are not doing it -- and in order to make your argument, you are distorting ours.

Why not deal with what each of us has to say about this issue -- and then rebut what we say rather than what you wish we had said so that you could pretend that we are being unreasonable.

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Frank Apisa
Rebut what? You claim that Israel is Influencing The Bush administration and the rest are your amen corner. I on the other hand dispute that since it is quite evident that Bush marches to his own drummer. I should note that based on polls American Jews support for the invasion of Iraq was about the same as any other group in America.
As far as my support for Israel it is unflagging. However, as far as Bush's it is the flavor of the month since it happens to coincide with his. If you remember when he first came into office he treated the Israeli/Palestinian conflict with benign neglect.

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Frank

Quote:

Israel -- and American Jews -- ARE INFLUENCING AMERICAN POLICY -- and in a way that I consider inappropriate.

As I said up above -- they have a right to do what they are doing.

Which is it Frank? And what is inappropriate?

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au1929 wrote:

Frank
Quote:

Israel -- and American Jews -- ARE INFLUENCING AMERICAN POLICY -- and in a way that I consider inappropriate.

As I said up above -- they have a right to do what they are doing.

Which is it Frank? And what is inappropriate?

There is no contradiction except in your own mind, au.

They have a right to do what they are doing -- and I can consider it inappropriate.

Try to reason this stuff out!

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You got it, Frank. And if Israel and/or a group of American Jews (not all, by any means) exercise that right, they shouldn't get any more special treatment than many of us give Big Pharma, or the defense industry, or Those Damn Environmentalists, or antiwar activists or any group you can think of which lobbies for its welfare. If you can say, "Damn environmentalists" or "damn defense industry" you can certainly say "damn Israel lobby." And I do think they are damnable.

There is a difference which we need to keep in mind, Damn Environmentalists and Damn Defense Industry are home grown lobbies. Not the Damn Pro-Israel Lobby. It's that difference which justifies the word "inappropriate" in my view.

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Frank

Quote:

Try to reason this stuff out!

Frank I need not as you say have to reason this stuff out. I can readily see who you are and where you are coming from. It has been made painfully clear more than once. I would say that further discussion of the matter would be futile and would in all likelihood end up in appropriate discourse.

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au1929 wrote:

Rebut what? You claim that Israel is Influencing The Bush administration and the rest are your amen corner.

COMMENT:

Stop playing games, au.

You wrote that we were saying that Sharon is demanding things of Bush and that Bush is following his instructions. I pointed out that we were saying no such thing.

We were simply saying that Bush is influencing the Bush Administration.

I asked you to refute what we say -- rather than what you make up.

Quote:

I on the other hand dispute that since it is quite evident that Bush marches to his own drummer.

I think it is quite evident that many things can influence Bush -- and he most decidedly has been influenced by several high profile Jews who, I think, are influencing American policy in directions that we should not be going -- but which Jews THINK will be of assistance to Israel.

You don't see things that way.

Sobeit.

I think you and Steissd are being selectively blind.

But there is no real way to determine which of us is correct. We'll just have to see where all this leads. Personally I think many Jews are making a pact with the Devil in their dealings with Bush and his ilk -- but like I said, we'll just have to wait things out and see how things play out.

Quote:

I should note that based on polls American Jews support for the invasion of Iraq was about the same as any other group in America.

I haven't seen that in my personal interactions with my Jewish friends, but it may be.

I am not especially concerned with the man in the street reaction in any case, but rather my concerns are with what the high profile Jews who help determine policy are doing and advising.

Quote:

As far as my support for Israel it is unflagging. However, as far as Bush's it is the flavor of the month since it happens to coincide with his. If you remember when he first came into office he treated the Israeli/Palestinian conflict with benign neglect.

Good for you. I wouldn't expect anything else. I also am a staunch supporter of Israel, although I wish everyone would finally realize that there is no way Israel can continue to exist where it is right now -- unless the Israelis are determined to live a life of killing, vengeance, retribution, hatred, and all the other things that presently are an integral part of life in the Middle East.

No matter what, though, it is my opinion that Bush and his handlers represent a clear and present danger to Israel and Jews -- and since it is a stealth danger, it is probably a greater danger than some of the other stuff Israelis and non-Israeli Jews face these days.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

I also am a staunch supporter of Israel, although I wish everyone would finally realize that there is no way Israel can continue to exist where it is right now...

And where should it exist? In the Moon? In the Antarctic? In the parallel world? On the bottom of the Pacific Ocean? I do not see any non-occupies chunks of land anywhere in the world where Israel could have been transferred to.

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Or it could just behave itself, withdraw from territory it's occupying, pull in its horns. Dare I say, it should stop behaving like a spoiled child? Dare I say, the US should stop spoiling it?

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Frank

Quote:

Good for you. I wouldn't expect anything else. I also am a staunch supporter of Israel, although I wish everyone would finally realize that there is no way Israel can continue to exist where it is right now

Do you re read what to write or is it out of sight out of mind. It is fine for Israel to exist but not in this world. Stop beating around the bush. As far as you are concerned Israel has no right to exist. It is time to be honest and come clean, you can say it there are others on a2k that will agree with you.

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Why the left cannot cheer this liberation

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