Why the left cannot cheer this liberation

Or a defender of Israel to give a little ground? In the settlements for example?

I'm sorry your metabolism is giving you a hard time, though. That can be tough. Nor would I try to persuade you to be straight, or vegetarian. A metabolically challenged gay wolf is just as welcome in this discussion as anyone else....

Settlements are to be discussed in the forthcoming negotiations of Abu Mazen and PM Sharon, and they can be dismantled if the solution providing security of Israel is found. And I am not sure that this may change a priori negative attitude of some people toward the very existence of the Jewish state.

It's my understanding that there's been another suicide bombing in Israel. Somebody's got to control those extremists, or peace will never occur. c.i.

Right now the control is completely in responsibility of the IDF. It manages to prevent about 75 percent of the attempted terror attacks.
In process of the forthcoming negotiations between Messrs Sharon and Abbas (Abu Mazen) some agreement is to be worked out, imposing such a responsibility on the security forces of the Palestinian Authority. It is a good sign that Mr. Mohammed Dahlan was appointed to the security related office despite of Arafat's objection: prior to having been fired by Arafat from his office of the Gaza Strip security forces commander, Mr. Dahlan proved his efficiency in preventing terror attacks and in restraining belligerence of Hamas.

Never did understand what sticking people in apartments on other people's hillsides had to do with security...

It's all part of "democracy." c.i.

It's that remaining 25% that cause Americans jitters.

Williamhenry, the remaining 25 percent cause death of civilians, mainly not settlers, but people living in Israel in its 1967 borders. Besides this, while there are terror attacks, IDF cannot be withdrawn from the Palestinian towns. If and when Abu Mazen/Dahlan manage to curb terror and to disarm Hamas, IDF will be withdrawn from the Palestinian towns and creation of the independent Palestinian State will become possible.

There is and has been enough violence and death on both sides of this equation and neither side is winning. Its time to change horses in midstream. Another way to understand the "eye for an eye" is that the man that smites another, causing the loss of sight is responsible for lending his sight to the man afflicted.

Dyslexia, IDF operations have nothing to do with revenge. The main task is prevention. Violence is being committed only when it is believed that it can prevent a particular terror attack or decrease motivation of the potential attackers. If the Palestinian security forces take the task of terror attacks prevention on themsleves, then the active operations of the IDF will be ceased. Prior to September 2000 Palestinians did this, and IDF abstained from any active operations in the Palestinian towns. When Arafat started using the Palestinian security forces for attacking Israeli targets and released all the terrorists that were arrested by Palestinian police from jails, IDF remained the only force to prevent terror attacks.

my statement is only my opinion, same as you.

My opinion is based on the instructions I get while being on active reserve service: all these instructions are aimed to prevent infiltration of terrorists into the Israeli territory and disruption of logistics of the terror groups. Every year I take part in the IDF effort to prevent terror attacks.
What is your opinion based on?

Look at a map, read up on the uses those hillsides have been put to by Israel's neighbors. A hillside full of kibbutzim is far more comforting to Israel than is that same hillside topped by a Syrian Artillery Spotter or swarming with Jordanian Infantry and Egyptian Armor. It would behoove one as well to understand there is a local conflict-of-opinion there too ... The Palestinians refer to "The Occupied Territories", while the Israeli's commonly refer to much of that as "The Disputed Territories"; a great deal of the area involved oringinally was encompassed within the UN-Mandated borders of Israle in the 1948 Partition, was occupied through military action on the part of Israel's Arab Neighbors, and was essentially re-taken by Israel in the '67 and '73 wars.
Now, those of you who know my position on this know I'm no apologist for Israel. I think they are as much at fault for the current unpleasantness as are their foes, if perhaps a bit more ethical. Still, propoganda abounds on both sides. A study of the relevant facts does great harm to much of the propaganda spewed by both parties.

"...far more comforting to Israel.."

Well, comfort can kill, Timber. And has. I'd like to see Palestinian olive groves returned to their owners and to hell with Israeli "comfort." How about a little Israeli discomfort and a fair share of justice (finally!) for the Palestinians?

Dys, you're up against robot-think there. Good luck.

Tanks, Apaches, bulldozers, suicide bombers, snipers and rock throwers day in day out make pretty clear that what is happening is not working and no one is comfortable. Hate and distrust are abundant on all sides for good reason. In the meantime its the people that are dying. Its all arrogant and its all stupid. I may have only lived in the mideast for 10 yrs but i am still entitled to an opinion.

Rssearch the issue, Tartarin ... The Israelis see, with historic justification, their occupation of those territories as necessary to the security of Israel. Israel's neighbors have repeatedly taken tactical and strategegic advantage offered by those areas to attempt to liquidate Israel.
"The Palestinian Refugee" is by and large a myth created by The Arab States. In the late 'Forties and early 'Fifties, large numbers of Jordanians, Sysrians, Egyptians, and others were more or less "herded" by The Araqb States into the Disputed Territories ... uprooted from ancestral homes not at all contiguous to the relevamnt area. None of Israel's neighbors has accepted any resp[onibility for the fate of these refugees, nor have any of Israel's neighbors made any effort to repatriate their former citizens and their decendants. The "Palestinian Olive Grove" you so dreamily evoke was a barren, rock-strewn, goat-grazed, waterless wasteland before Israelis developed it.

I know the issue backwards and forwards, Timber, as we all do who read the press, books, and have lived with it for years. The difference is, I'm looking at someone's homeland and Israel is looking at "justified occupation." You see the former as romantic; I see the latter as a form of terrorism and am ashamed my country has anything to do with it.

TArtarin, I ain't much given to romanticism. Here's a link to a lengthy, but concise given the complexity of the issue, UN precis of the matter. Clearly, The Israelis, The Palestinians, and The Neighboring Arab States have as a group failed to approach the issue in any but the most belligerant manner. They're all to blame, as is The UN.

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/ec8db69f77e7a33e052567270057e591/3b58e8d0adf62b5f852561230077c62d!OpenDocument


(oops ... forgot the link ... edited to correct the oversight.)

In June 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon with the declared intention to eliminate the PLO. A cease-fire was arranged. PLO troops withdrew from Beirut and were transferred to neighboring countries after guarantees of safety were provided for thousands of Palestinian refugees left behind. Subsequently, a large-scale massacre of refugees took place in the camps of Sabra and Shatila.

In September 1983, the International Conference on the Question of Palestine, which was widely attended, adopted inter alia the Geneva Declaration containing the following principles: the need to oppose and reject the establishment of settlements in the occupied territory and actions taken by Israel to change the status of Jerusalem, the right of all States in the region to existence within secure and internationally recognized boundaries, with justice and security for all the people, and the attainment of the legitimate, inalienable rights of the Palestinian people.

In December 1987, a mass uprising against the Israeli occupation began in the occupied Palestinian territory (the intifadah). Methods used by the Israeli forces during the uprising resulted in mass injuries and heavy loss of life among the civilian Palestinian population.

Thanks Timber. Dys's post mirrors my understanding of the situation. Israel has broken the law over and over again, has acted with unnecessary force, and throws it hands up in horror every time there's an understandable reaction from the Palestinians. The latter have committed their own sins, but sins which are far more understandable to me. I see in this fight not only Israeli hubris and imperialism (like her main supporter's) but sheer, stupid racism (also like...) It's the racism which finally sealed it for me. That and the agony of hearing Palestinians describe the taking of their land, farmhouse by farmhouse, orchard by orchard, to replace them with high-rises and the overflow of modern trash, impervious cover, and armed protection... protecting what, "western civilization"? What a hoot. What a travesty.