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'another Letter from Jesus Christ'

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:20 pm
I don't recall ever saying that the bible is metaphorical in all th verses except Jesus. Where did you get that?

Truth be known, I have given my answer. You and I have a different understanding of it. So, we can agree to disagree.

One God, three manifestations. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
0 Replies
 
stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:24 pm
three G.ds if you count the other two...........and many, many children

:wink:
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:25 pm
No, steve. One God.
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 11:16 pm
Lash wrote:
Q: "Are there any historical writings, other than the Bible, that prove that Jesus ever really lived?"

our A: Yes. Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120) was considered the greatest historian of ancient Rome. He wrote of Nero who "punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus [Christ], the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originiated, but through the city of Rome also."1

Also, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian, (A.D. 38-100+) wrote about Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities, saying that Jesus was a wise man who did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from among Jews and Greeks, that Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, was accused by the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by Pilate, and was considered to be resurrected.2

The existence of Jesus Christ is recorded not only by Josephus and Tacitus, but also by ancient writers such as Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, and Lucian. And from the Jewish Talmud, "we learn that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God."3

Thus, historians both favorable and unfavorable regarding Jesus did write about him. Also there were many historical writings about the early Christians.



Timber has presented rebuttal to the above many times on these fora. Here is one such.
timberlandko wrote:
Leaving Moses for later discussion, let's examine the actual historicity of the Biblical Jesus. Those who've followed earlier discussions of mine pertaining to this particular point may experience a deja vu moment; indeed I previously have written just about exactly what follows. Feel free to ship over it if you've seen it before Laughing

Those arguing for the historicity of Jesus point frequently to Tacitus: Annals 15:44, which translates, " ... "derived their name and origin from Christ, who, in the reign of Tiberius, had suffered death by the sentence of the Procurator Pontius Pilate". More on Tacitus' reference in a bit, but first, there are a few other nearly contemporary references from other writers cited as historical proof, as well. Apologists for the Historicity of Jesus make much of the little on which they have to draw.

Frequently mentioned in similar vein to the Tacitus "proof" is Josephus' Testimonium Flavianum, from Antiquities of the Jews 18:63-64, which translates, " ... About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and as a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared." Frequent mention also is made of Josephus, Antiquities 20:9.1, which translates " ... so he ("he" in the passage referring to one Ananus, eldest son of High Priest Ananus ... timber) assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before him the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others and when he had formed an accusation against them, he delivered them to be stoned."

Of the two Josephus references, the second, often termed the "Jamesian Passage" is accorded by historians somewhat more provenance than the first, or Testimonium Flavianum passage, which generally is accepted to be if not a whole later addition, at the very least a later-edited expansion by a 3rd Century transcriber of Christian agenda. However, neither passage is universally accepted as original, at least as currently known, to Josephus' Antiquities. There are questions arising both from contextual positioning - word usage and phrasing - and apparent internal contradictions arising from considering the passages with the overall Antiquities. It is known that Origen, a renowned 3rd Century Christian scholar and a key figure in the early evolution of Christianity, referenced the Testimonium Flavianum. It is known too that the style and word usage of the Testimonium Flavianum, while not particularly characteristic of Josephus' practice, is wholly consistent with Origen's style and usage.

Highlighted here in blue are the phrases which give scholars difficulty: " ... About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and as a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared." Particularly of note is the "Messiah" reference; numerous times throughout Antiquities and his other writings, Josephus specifically and unambiguously bestows the title "Messiah" on his own patron, the Emperor Trajan. Perplexing as well is that Josephus wrote much more expansively of John The Baptist and of other zealots and cult figures among the Jews ... writings all devoid of any Jesus, Christ, or Christian reference. A last eyebrow raiser lies in the reverent tone with which Christ is described - not at all fitting either with Josephus' style or general contemporary sentiment.

None of that by itself is damning evidence, but neither is there unambiguous provenance. While it is entirely plausible Josephus wrote of Jesus, it cannot be proven that he did, and there is plentiful credible argument he did not.

Turning to Tacitus, the sole relevant passage in Annals does nothing more than confirm that at the time Tacitus was writing, there was a cult styled as "Christians", the members of which professed a belief that their self-purported central cult figure, "Christ", had died a martyr at the hands of Pilate, "Procurator of Judea" during the reign of Tiberius. That alone raises serious question as to any provenance derived thereby. While the Tacitus text suffers from none of the provenance difficulties afflicting the Josephus examples, in no way is it independent evidence of anything other than that a cult known as Christians had a tradition involving the death of their putative namesake. The key point of difficulty historians have with the oft-cited Tacitus passage is that he terms Pilate "Procurator", whereas the actual office held by Pilate was Prefect - a terminology distinction error very unlike, in fact otherwise unevidenced in, anything else ever written by Tacitus. It is, however, an error echoed in the Gospels, though nowhere else. Too, he refers to Jesus by the Graeco-Christian religious title "Christos", an honorific, as opposed to the almost universally observed contemporary Roman practice of referring to personages other than nobility or signal military accomplishment (which itself generally conveyed nobility) by given names further delineated by patronymics or regional identifiers; Abraham son of Judah, for instance, or Simon of Gaza. One must strongly consider the possibility Tacitus was working not from Roman records in this instance, but rather recounting what he had been told by or heard of Christians.

Other 1st Century writers, Suetonius, Thalus, and Pliny the Younger, also are thought by some to offer independent historical evidence of Jesus.

A passage from Suetonius' Lives of the Caesars, specifically Claudius 5.25.4, translates, "Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (the contextual reference is to action taken in 49 CE by Claudius, then Emperor ... timber) expelled them from Rome." Several things stand out here. First, and perhaps least troubling, is that "Chrestus" actually is a common latinization of a known Greek proper name wholly unrelated to the messianic religious title "Christ", or "Christos". Second, there is no reference to "Christians", but rather those being discussed are given the appellation "Jews", and finally, the events described took place in 49 AD, disturbances instigated in Rome by one Chrestus, an individual apparently present both temporally and locationally regarding the disturbances - nearly 2 decades after the accepted date of Jesus' death. The only connection to Jesus or to Christians is the similarity of spelling between the name "Chrestus" and the title or honorific "Christos". Most interesting is that Pliny the Elder, writing much closer to the times in which the incidents reportedly took place, mentions Christians and/or Christ not at all.

With Thalus, we delve even deeper into ambiguity; no first person text survives, and the earliest reference to Thalus describing the crucifixion as having been accompanied by "earthquake and darkness", echoing Gospel accounts, is to be found in the 3rd Century writings of Julius Africanus, a Christian writer and leader. No contemporary record of any such occurrence in or near Judea/Palestine during the 1st Century exists ... a surprising circumstance had there been in fact unexplained mid-day darkness coincident with earthquake. That sorta thing tends to get noticed, and written about, big time. That it might have been left unremarked by any other than the Gospelers and possibly Thalus beggars the imagination.

Turning to Pliny the Younger, his voluminous correspondences with the Emperor Trajan bear frequent mention of Christians in Asia Minor, their beliefs and their practices in context of dissent against and resistance to Roman authority, and amount to discussions of how best to deal with the bother and disturbance fostered by the Christian cult. There is no mention whatsoever of Jesus, and the only reference to "Christ" is to be found in the term "Christians".

In short, history tells us nothing about the historicity of Jesus beyond that there was an offshoot cult of Judaism known as Christians, they had traditions, beliefs and practices, and that Roman Authority thought none too highly of them.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1678270#1678270
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 08:09 am
Great post, Mesquite.

Timber worded that case quite eloquently.
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Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 10:35 am
Stevewonder, you seem very smart.
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stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:15 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
stevewonder,

That's not the verse I was talking about. Embarrassed I was talking about where He said I am the Truth, the Way, and the Life. Sorry for the confusion.

How old was David when God said that? If God had just made him His begotten son, couldn't that mean "adopted"? To be begotten is to be born of.


I stand correct you said adopted Ma, not Metaphorical, but the point is the same.

You are saying when G.d, in the bible, says someone is His begotten son it means 'adopted' UNLESS he is talking about Jesus it is literal!!

David is decreed Gods begotten son
2:7 Pslams

"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. " <<<is G.d lying here?

Why do you do that? Why do you pick and choose which son is literal and which isnt.

A more rational explaination would be.............now brace yourself

Whenever G.d reffers to anyone (if it was indeed G.d) in the Bible as His child, daughter, son, first born or begotten HE IS TALKING METAPHORICALLY..........and heres the next bombshell..........when he gave the 1st commandment about there being just Him just the one....He wasnt kidding.

and with that we have laid to rest the centuries old debate about the man people mistook for God.

:wink:
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:22 pm
Well, guess we just have to agree to disagree stevewonder.

I believe and know that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. I believe and know that He is the Savior and was crucified for the sins of the world.

You obvioulsy don't. So we just have to agree to disagree.
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stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:27 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Well, guess we just have to agree to disagree stevewonder.

I believe and know that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. I believe and know that He is the Savior and was crucified for the sins of the world.

You obvioulsy don't. So we just have to agree to disagree.


please Ma¬!!
tell me you can read what I have posted!!
The bit where I have quoted the Bible and G.d's begotten son!!
because I think I am going crazy.

Laughing
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:29 pm
steve,

I read it. You have a different understanding than I do. So what? I am telling you what I believe it means. I am not telling you I am right. I am not telling you that you are wrong.

I am just telling you we have a different understanding of it.
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:30 pm
G.d didn't have a begotten son. God did.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:31 pm
Amen to that!
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stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:36 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
steve,

I read it. You have a different understanding than I do. So what? I am telling you what I believe it means. I am not telling you I am right. I am not telling you that you are wrong.

I am just telling you we have a different understanding of it.


Now heres the problem, Christians say you must accept Jesuss blood and crucifxion based on what the Bible says, and we can see that what you claim is being contradicted by text and yet you tell us that our salvation depends on this very text?

Why did G.d according to you cause so much confusion???

And if he is the author of confusion then did he lie to us when he said....

"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints," (1 Cor. 14:33).
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:38 pm
Stevewonder,

God did not say anything in Corinthians. Apostle Paul did. You should really read up on things before you make such claims.
0 Replies
 
stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:49 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Stevewonder,

God did not say anything in Corinthians. Apostle Paul did. You should really read up on things before you make such claims.


intrepid I am actually taing the position that the whole Bible is the literal word of G.d according to all the Christian I have met.

Now If you dont believe that then thats another discussion we could have.

Is that what your saying?? That the bible is not the literal word of G.d?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:52 pm
stevewonder,

God did not cause the confusion. Man causes the confusion. The basic message of Christ is so simple. But, man has distorted it.
0 Replies
 
stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:54 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
stevewonder,

God did not cause the confusion. Man causes the confusion. The basic message of Christ is so simple. But, man has distorted it.


so the Bible is distorted by men??
is that right? Is that what your saying??
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 08:03 pm
stevewonder wrote:
please Ma¬!!
tell me you can read what I have posted!!
The bit where I have quoted the Bible and G.d's begotten son!!
because I think I am going crazy.

Laughing


I know how you feel stevewonder. It happened to me too. :wink:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1523915#1523915

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6861/headwall9wy.gif
0 Replies
 
stevewonder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 08:09 pm
"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five."

- Groucho Marx

Laughing
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 09:26 pm
Mesquite,

What you just posted seems to imply you are right and I am wrong. I never said I was right. I never said you were wrong.

I think agreeing to disagree can be just fine.
0 Replies
 
 

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